Why is minesweeper so hard?

[General_Speckz]

True. I agree.

However mine is applicable to Sudoku and correct and his is not.

If you love additional examples I will add another to show his flaw.

You have two different ways to get to a location suggested by others.

To determine which is the better option you pull it up on a Map and look at the calculated distances and make an informed decision.

Did you 'guess' because at the start you looked at and examined BOTH options before making your decision based on the evidence you gathered?

No. Not if you use the proper definition of 'guiess' as you formed 'no opinion' prior to examining the evidence and only made a choice BASED on evidence.

They are trying to define a guess as 'any examination of potential outcomes before a decision is made'.

That is simply wrong.

Hmm, well I was thinking that since sudoku never has a column with only one cell empty then "guessing" is required at some point depending how loose you are with the definition. But, after asking Google, I can see it's a pretty controversial subject that seems to hinge on the rules by the designer of the puzzle adheres to combined with your definition of "guessing":

https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/...ublished-sudoku-puzzles-that-require-guessing

In this case I am left with one option:

 

[DoomPatrol]

True. I agree.

However mine is applicable to Sudoku and correct and his is not.

If you love additional examples I will add another to show his flaw.

You have two different ways to get to a location suggested by others.

To determine which is the better option you pull it up on a Map and look at the calculated distances and make an informed decision.

Did you 'guess' because at the start you looked at and examined BOTH options before making your decision based on the evidence you gathered?

No. Not if you use the proper definition of 'guiess' as you formed 'no opinion' prior to examining the evidence and only made a choice BASED on evidence.

They are trying to define a guess as 'any examination of potential outcomes before a decision is made'.

That is simply wrong.

Except in the beginning stages of Sudoku, you don't have enough information to develop a well defined choice. You have to make some educated GUESSES. The game demands that. Your first few choices are going to be guesses because there simply isn't enough information. If you use YOUR definition of guess, to form an opinion of from little or no evidence, that's exactly what you're doing. You're forming an opinion as to the correct answer based on little evidence. This is in no way comparable to picking the correct route on a map from two options. You're trying to solve roughly 70 different routes with only a couple of stops already placed on the map.

 

[Gavster]

It is hard. I stumbled upon an rpg style minesweeper after looking for desktop dungeons like games and really enjoyed it. Here is another enjoyable way to spend your time.

You are looking to defeat level 1s at first to then level up and fight level 2s. You take damage if you fight higher levels. That’s all the advice you need to get started.. here’s the link, enjoy!



http://www.hojamaka.com/game/mamono_sweeper_easy/html5/en.html

 

[eworden78]

Except in the beginning stages of Sudoku, you don't have enough information to develop a well defined choice. You have to make some educated GUESSES. The game demands that. Your first few choices are going to be guesses because there simply isn't enough information. If you use YOUR definition of guess, to form an opinion of from little or no evidence, that's exactly what you're doing. You're forming an opinion as to the correct answer based on little evidence. This is in no way comparable to picking the correct route on a map from two options. You're trying to solve roughly 70 different routes with only a couple of stops already placed on the map.

I think you're really wrong on this.
When you start a Sudoku game, you are marking possibilities that have not yet been excluded.
If I mark a "small 2" in the top corner, I'm not guessing that the square is a "2" I'm noting a fact that "2" has not yet been excluded.

Noting that something is possible, is not the same as guessing that something is true.

 

[DoomPatrol]

I think you're really wrong on this.
When you start a Sudoku game, you are marking possibilities that have not yet been excluded.
If I mark a "small 2" in the top corner, I'm not guessing that the square is a "2" I'm noting a fact that "2" has not yet been excluded.

Noting that something is possible, is not the same as guessing that something is true.

Maybe I have a looser definition of guessing because I would say putting two as a possibility (and on expert you'll have a TON of possibilities), it guessing. Eventually you'll gain more information to work through those choices.

 

[Alphaboy]

It's a game of luck to some degree so I wouldn't say it's "hard". Hard implies something takes skill, guessing has nothing to do with skill, it has to do with odds.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Hmm, well I was thinking that since sudoku never has a column with only one cell empty then "guessing" is required at some point depending how loose you are with the definition. But, after asking Google, I can see it's a pretty controversial subject that seems to hinge on the rules by the designer of the puzzle adheres to combined with your definition of "guessing":

https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/...ublished-sudoku-puzzles-that-require-guessing

In this case I am left with one option:

Yes it is controversial but that is based on what I say above. The definition of what constitutes a 'guess'.

My chess example is the perfect example. Is that guessing. You have multiple pieces with multiple choices, you examine each prior to having any info, but then test each with the info you can gather based on those positionings.

You made not choice prior to testing and thus formed no opinion. You did come to a conclusion though based on evidence which is not a guess.

SOme will keep trying to say that is a guess but it is not. They are wrong.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I think you're really wrong on this.
When you start a Sudoku game, you are marking possibilities that have not yet been excluded.
If I mark a "small 2" in the top corner, I'm not guessing that the square is a "2" I'm noting a fact that "2" has not yet been excluded.

Noting that something is possible, is not the same as guessing that something is true.

Correct.

@jgarner is trying to say just the act of examining something when you do not have the information yet, is a guess. Many see it his way but that does not conform to how a guess is defined so it is wrong.



Here is a scenario to highlight his flaw.

Scenario Example:

Fred and Steve both ask Joe directions to Point A.

Joe knows a couple ways but is unsure about the best route. He details 'Route 1' and 'Route 2' which both get you there.

Fred immediately sets out choosing Route 1 and takes 2 hours to arrive.

Steve looks at both options first on a Map and calculates Route 2 to be best and takes 1 hour to arrive.


-----------

When they eventually talk at the destination Steve asks Fred why he took so long. Fred says I just guessed and I guess I guessed wrong. I will take the other route the next time.(pure trial and error or guessing)

Steve says, 'oh, i quickly examined both options and tested them with available information and determined that Route 2 was much shorter. I did not guess.'

Fred and Jgarner say ' ya you guessed as you looked at BOTH options before making a decision and the very act of examining options to exclude one via available information is guessing'.

Steve "ummm NO. you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what constitutes a guess and are misapplying the definition. You guessed. I did not. I made an INFORMED decision"

 

[DoomPatrol]

Correct.

@jgarner is trying to say just the act of examining something when you do not have the information yet, is a guess. Many see it his way but that does not conform to how a guess is defined so it is wrong.



Here is a scenario to highlight his flaw.

Scenario Example:

Fred and Steve both ask Joe directions to Point A.

Joe knows a couple ways but is unsure about the best route. He details 'Route 1' and 'Route 2' which both get you there.

Fred immediately sets out choosing Route 1 and takes 2 hours to arrive.

Steve looks at both options first on a Map and calculates Route 2 to be best and takes 1 hour to arrive.


-----------

When they eventually talk at the destination Steve asks Fred why he took so long. Fred says I just guessed and I guess I guessed wrong. I will take the other route the next time.(pure trial and error or guessing)

Steve says, 'oh, i quickly examined both options and tested them with available information and determined that Route 2 was much shorter. I did not guess.'

Fred and Jgarner say ' ya you guessed as you looked at BOTH options before making a decision and the very act of examining options to exclude one via available information is guessing'.

Steve "ummm NO. you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what constitutes a guess and are misapplying the definition. You guessed. I did not. I made an INFORMED decision"

The big issue I have with your "scenario" is that by calculating two options and getting an answer, you're no longer guessing. It's a poor comparison because Sudoku isn't an A or B choice, it's an A or B or C or D or E or F or G or H or I choice with multiple options used multiple times and you can't really calculate anything. You can only exclude one or two options. The other Fred concept is a blind choice without really making an educated guess at to which one.

 

[MikeMcMann]

The big issue I have with your "scenario" is that by calculating two options and getting an answer, you're no longer guessing. It's a poor comparison because Sudoku isn't an A or B choice, it's an A or B or C or D or E or F or G or H or I choice with multiple options used multiple times and you can't really calculate anything. You can only exclude one or two options. The other Fred concept is a blind choice without really making an educated guess at to which one.

This is exactly your problem and I am giving up on you being open minded enough to accept that simply because you cannot do it with more than 2 options, anyone else can.

"...and you can't really calculate anything. You can only exclude one or two options...."

There are all sorts of people whose ego's will not allow them to accept that anyone can do something they cannot and you are obvious one.

I have never made a choice in Sudoku that is not calculated and that i am not sure is the correct one when I choose it based on the numerous tests I have applied. That does not mean I never make mistakes. But it does mean I am acting on assessed information and not guessing.

Your 'everyone guesses at Sudoku' is simply you projecting and its not accurate.

 

[DoomPatrol]

This is exactly your problem and I am giving up on you being open minded enough to accept that simply because you cannot do it with more than 2 options, anyone else can.

"...and you can't really calculate anything. You can only exclude one or two options...."

There are all sorts of people whose ego's will not allow them to accept that anyone can do something they cannot and you are obvious one.

I have never made a choice in Sudoku that is not calculated and that i am not sure is the correct one when I choose it based on the numerous tests I have applied. That does not mean I never make mistakes. But it does mean I am acting on assessed information and not guessing.

Your 'everyone guesses at Sudoku' is simply you projecting and its not accurate.

I don't believe that you're solving expert sudoku puzzles without making educated guesses as to what possible options a box could be. Just because you evaluate it further and remove options to deduce an answer doesn't mean you're not guessing. You even said it yourself about using deductive reasoning. That's educated guessing.

This has nothing to do with me being unable to accept that people are better than me. I'm not a Sudoku god and I'm not pretending to be. I'm just not delusional enough to think you're solving these puzzles without guesswork.

If anything it seems like you're one of those people who's ego refuses to allow you to accept the fact that you aren't a human computer and you do guesswork.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I don't believe that you're solving expert sudoku puzzles without making educated guesses as to what possible options a box could be. Just because you evaluate it further and remove options to deduce an answer doesn't mean you're not guessing. You even said it yourself about using deductive reasoning. That's educated guessing.

This has nothing to do with me being unable to accept that people are better than me. I'm not a Sudoku god and I'm not pretending to be. I'm just not delusional enough to think you're solving these puzzles without guesswork.

If anything it seems like you're one of those people who's ego refuses to allow you to accept the fact that you aren't a human computer and you do guesswork.

Whatever you believe that is your business and I could care less.

I absolutely would NEVER guess and would simply quit a puzzle if I could not solve it. I was playing mostly FIEND level at the end of my run. To me that was the entire challenge of it. If I was to guess then it would change the challenge of the game to me.

I also maintain that the key to completing the higher levels is never guessing. You have to take a a super disciplined approach where you are absolutely certain of every number you plug in before you commit, because if you are not then you will not vest the time trying to discern the next one.

I would often be working on multiple puzzles at the same time as I would set aside ones where i was stuck and not able to discern the next space. Often picking it up and putting it back down over 2 days or more to gain one more square. Fresh eyes often helped.

You just won't spend that time if you have know you guessed prior as you will always worry you were wasting your time as you had made prior mistakes with a guess.

 

[fungi]

It's not.


I used to play for hours. My best times:
6 secs on easy.
39 secs on med.
159 secs on exp.

P.s. weird flex, butt whatever...

 

[MikeMcMann]

I will repeat for the crowd whose ego demands them accept that 'if i cannot do it, no one can'.

Every "proper" sudoku puzzle which only has one solution can be solved without guessing. The only time you would need to guess is when the sudoku puzzle is improper, and thus has multiple possible solutions, and your guesses would be irrelevant to whether the puzzle could be solved. cite

Sudoku puzzles never require guessing.
Guessing would be necessary only if solving the Sudoku puzzle means to get the puzzle creator's intended solution and there are multiple valid solutions available. cite

 

[fungi]

Well I'm an engineer and my math skills are pretty damn good. It still takes a certain amount guesswork to solve a Sudoku puzzle in the beginning stages as there are multiple possible options that you have to work through. The easier the difficulty the less guesswork you'll do, but on hard/expert difficulty there's a reason people don't fill them in pen and apps have a multiple number per box option.

Sudoku isn't really about math anyways. It's about patterns. You're not doing any calculations. You could replace everything in a Sudoku puzzle with shapes whatever else you wanted and it would still work. One of each per line vertically and horizontally, and one set per box.

Sudoku is my absolute favorite thing to do in my free time. Love that game.

No need for guessing in sudoku. At all.

Math is not that important for sudoku. Mostly logical thinking and a bit of memory span.

As @MikeMcMann already said:

Every "proper" sudoku puzzle which only has one solution can be solved without guessing. The only time you would need to guess is when the sudoku puzzle is improper, and thus has multiple possible solutions, and your guesses would be irrelevant to whether the puzzle could be solved.

 

[MikeMcMann]

No need for guessing in sudoku. At all.

Math is not that important for sudoku. Mostly logical thinking and a bit of memory span.

As @MikeMcMann already said:

He will not accept that.

He cannot do that. Thus nobody can. He refuses to accept that despite I think most, if not every sudoku book saying in the start of its cover that no guessing is required as they are all proper puzzles.

 

[fungi]

He will not accept that.

He cannot do that. Thus nobody can. He refuses to accept that despite I think most, if not every sudoku book saying in the start of its cover that no guessing is required as they are all proper puzzles.

Yep. Some ppl just can't.

Any proper sudoku is done by simple reasoning. The algorithm is there. Zero guesswork, no matter how hard, as long as it's created correctly.

One of my fave passtimes.

 

[Fedorgasm]

Only your first click had to be a guess.

Not true for mine sweeper. Maybe on beginner or medium difficulties, but I always play the hardest level and always end up having to make several 50/50 guesses. Go try it once if you don't believe me.

 

[TSO]

Not true for mine sweeper. Maybe on beginner or medium difficulties, but I always play the hardest level and always end up having to make several 50/50 guesses. Go try it once if you don't believe me.

I've been playing it since day one, I haven't lost in decades unless it's on that first click.

 

[Fedorgasm]

I've been playing it since day one, I haven't lost in decades unless it's on that first click.

Sure, buddy. Aren't you also the guy that claimed to have shot two guys through each of their hands with one arrow?

I mean, I know this is sherdog and we all bang 10s and bench teh 275, but your credibility is pretty questionable even for this forum.