Why is minesweeper so hard?

[Fawlty]

haha.

I had this argument with my sister in law who stated as if fact that you had to guess at Sudoko and then just erase and back up and then solve. She got so mad at me and my brother when we told her that was cheating.

But that is because she sucks at math.

NO, you never have to guess at Soduko ever at any level. You CAN guess, but that changes the very nature of Soduko. Especially if you back up when you find an error and erase the guess and then just keep guessing again until it works. What is the point of playing then. You start out playing for the challenge of 'figuring it out' and then resort to 'guessing' every time you hit a road block. Just play a lower level where you don't need to guess.


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Every "proper" sudoku puzzle which only has one solution can be solved without guessing. The only time you would need to guess is when the sudoku puzzle is improper, and thus has multiple possible solutions, and your guesses would be irrelevant to whether the puzzle could be solved.

The only difference is whether you write the number guesses down on paper or keep the number guesses in your head. You are definitely guessing and trying out your guess, pencil or no.

 

[MikeMcMann]

That's impressive but you're still talking about Sudoku and not minesweeper. Minesweeper requires guessing at the expert level. It's not just that I suck. Look it up. It's part of the game. The worst part IMO

eh sorry,

I had just read @jgarner saying you have to guess at sudoku at the hardest levels and followed that thru to your post and assumed you were confirming his post.

My bad.

And yes Minesweeper requires guessing at harder levels. True.

 

[TestosterOWN]

Bow to the greatest

 

[General_Speckz]

Bow to the greatest

Dude, how dare you. You should not have reminded me of this.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Well I'm an engineer and my math skills are pretty damn good. It still takes a certain amount guesswork to solve a Sudoku puzzle in the beginning stages as there are multiple possible options that you have to work through.

This is simply not true.

You can use multiple techniques that will include or exclude the possibilities until you get to one and only one.

Do not fall into the ego trap of saying 'because I cannot that means others cannot'.

The easier the difficulty the less guesswork you'll do, but on hard/expert difficulty there's a reason people don't fill them in pen and apps have a multiple number per box option.

Sudoku isn't really about math anyways. It's about patterns. You're not doing any calculations. You could replace everything in a Sudoku puzzle with shapes whatever else you wanted and it would still work. One of each per line vertically and horizontally, and one set per box.

Sudoku is my absolute favorite thing to do in my free time. Love that game.

cite

Sudoku is a logic-based puzzle. It is a type of constraint satisfaction problem, where the solver is given a finite number of objects (the numerals 1-9) and a set of conditions stating how the objects must be placed in relation to one another. The puzzle consists of a 9\times 99×9 grid further divided into nine 3×33×3 sub-grids (also called boxes, blocks, regions, or sub-squares).

...

People sometimes say there is no math required to solve Sudoku. What they really mean is, there is no arithmetic involved in Sudoku. Mathematical thinking in the forms of deductive reasoning and algorithms are the basic tools for solving Sudoku puzzles.

 

[MikeMcMann]

The only difference is whether you write the number guesses down on paper or keep the number guesses in your head. You are definitely guessing and trying out your guess, pencil or no.

i would not agree with that definition and it is not my understanding.

To accept that then Deductive reasoning and Quantitative Reasoning are merely guesses and i don't think anyone in science or math would accept that.

A guess is when you fill in a number and have no basis for it (basically a coin flip between options) and then you proceed as if that is correct, and one of two outcomes occurs. You either hit a wall, where you end up with the same number twice in a quadrant and KNOW you made a mistake OR you continue without error and KNOW your guess was right.

There was no reason or logic underpinning your method and you just basically flipped a coin and 'hoped' and the only reason you know your are right or wrong is via the outcome that you cannot explain.

In deductive reasoning you have limited information at the time, and thus substitute an option in as 'X', you then apply a number of tests to either 'include' or 'exclude' X as correct or incorrect, and you are utilizing quantitative reasoning to vett it.

So you are not proposing any answer (guess) before you have vetted, tested and determined if it is accurate or not and can prove it.


----------------

In the end the way you define 'guess', matters. If you say any scientific or mathematical conjecture is a 'guess' when conceived, and before being tested and excluded or included, then I would accept your point, but again I do not think that is a valid or accepted way to define that. @rj144 , ...any comment on the above (specific to the scientific or mathematical method and 'guessing')??

 

[General_Speckz]

This is simply not true.

You can use multiple techniques that will include or exclude the possibilities until you get to one and only one.

Do not fall into the ego trap of saying 'because I cannot that means others cannot'.



cite

Sudoku is a logic-based puzzle. It is a type of constraint satisfaction problem, where the solver is given a finite number of objects (the numerals 1-9) and a set of conditions stating how the objects must be placed in relation to one another. The puzzle consists of a 9\times 99×9 grid further divided into nine 3×33×3 sub-grids (also called boxes, blocks, regions, or sub-squares).

...

People sometimes say there is no math required to solve Sudoku. What they really mean is, there is no arithmetic involved in Sudoku. Mathematical thinking in the forms of deductive reasoning and algorithms are the basic tools for solving Sudoku puzzles.

I think you should look at the semantics of what you are both arguing.

@jgarner is arguing that sudoku requires temporary guesses (which may or may not be proven wrong as you go) which by definition can be changed at any time to win the puzzle

@MikeMcMann is arguing that minesweeper (at least on expert) requires permanent guesses which could make you lose the puzzle

I think you're both right.

 

[DoomPatrol]

This is simply not true.

You can use multiple techniques that will include or exclude the possibilities until you get to one and only one.

That's called guessing buddy.

Do not fall into the ego trap of saying 'because I cannot that means others cannot'.

You just said it was guessing yourself. Educated guesses with logic behind the choices are still.....guesses.

cite

Sudoku is a logic-based puzzle. It is a type of constraint satisfaction problem, where the solver is given a finite number of objects (the numerals 1-9) and a set of conditions stating how the objects must be placed in relation to one another. The puzzle consists of a 9\times 99×9 grid further divided into nine 3×33×3 sub-grids (also called boxes, blocks, regions, or sub-squares).

The objective is to place the digits within the grid so that each column, row, and sub-grid contains all of the digits from 11 to 99. Each puzzle is published with some of the boxes already filled in, and those constraints help define the problem's difficulty level.

Thank you for explaining how to play my favorite game to me.

People sometimes say there is no math required to solve Sudoku. What they really mean is, there is no arithmetic involved in Sudoku. Mathematical thinking in the forms of deductive reasoning and algorithms are the basic tools for solving Sudoku puzzles.

Deductive reasoning isn't really mathematics. You'll see college courses on that in Philosophy, but not really math. It's a really hard stretch to say this is a mathematics game. The only reason people say that is because you're using numbers instead of some other placeholder. You could replace those numbers with 9 different fruits and the game would remain the same.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Re guessing versus 'not' and how one defines guessing, would you define what is done in Chess as guessing?

A good person playing chess, examines the board,and then he envisions the pieces moved to certain locations. He then scans the board to see what he potential outcomes are available to his opponent based on that. He then chooses what move to make by the one that got the best outcomes for him, in his tested simulations.

I would not call what he is doing guessing and from that suggest there is even a casual relationship to what a lesser player might do, which is just 'guess' and randomly move a piece and as soon as they see it has a bad outcome (checkmate) they ask if they can take it back and make another move instead. Meaning they only know if they made the right move or not thru OUTCOME and not prior testing.

That mirrors almost exactly what someone in sudoku is doing who is 'guessing' versus someone who is 'testing simulations' before proceeding.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I think you should look at the semantics of what you are both arguing.

@jgarner is arguing that sudoku requires temporary guesses (which may or may not be proven wrong as you go) which by definition can be changed at any time to win the puzzle

@MikeMcMann is arguing that minesweeper (at least on expert) requires permanent guesses which could make you lose the puzzle

I think you're both right.

I agree there could be a level of semantic nitpick if we cannot agree what makes a 'guess'.

My prior post addresses that well, I believe.

If someone wants to say Chess is a game of guessing as the player, without first knowing, has to pick a piece and envision it in another spot, and then test it, before making his choice...

Then ok great, we are just not going to agree on that definition of 'guess' and defining the game of Chess, as involving guessing.

But if in their definition ..., what i call 'testing' is 'guessing' to them, then fair enough, we just won't agree on that definition.

But i maintain my point that if you said to those knowledgeable about Chess 'does it involve guessing at expert levels' they would say 'no, that is an improper application of the word 'guess'.

You are doing the exact same thing in Sudoku, in terms of envisioning a move, and testing it to come to a correct conclusion.

(FYI, i was never referring to minesweeper with my reasoning)

 

[MikeMcMann]

That's called guessing buddy.



You just said it was guessing yourself. Educated guesses with logic behind the choices are still.....guesses.


Thank you for explaining how to play my favorite game to me.



Deductive reasoning isn't really mathematics. You'll see college courses on that in Philosophy, but not really math. It's a really hard stretch to say this is a mathematics game. The only reason people say that is because you're using numbers instead of some other placeholder. You could replace those numbers with 9 different fruits and the game would remain the same.

Yes Chess is just guessing because you have to guess.

You are a perfect of example of 'if i can't, no one can'.

 

[General_Speckz]

I agree there could be a level of semantic nitpick if we cannot agree what makes a 'guess'.

My prior post addresses that well, I believe.

If someone wants to say Chess is a game of guessing as the player without first knowing has to pick a piece and envision it in another spot and then test it before making his choice...

Ok great, we are just not going to agree on that definition of 'guess' and defining the game as involving guessing.

But if in their definition that, what i call 'testing' is 'guessing' then fair enough, we just won't agree on that definition.

But i maintain my point that if you said to those knowledgeable about Chess 'does it involve guessing at expert levels' they would say 'no, that is an improper application of the word 'guess'.

You are doing the exact same thing in Sudoku, in terms of envisioning a move, and testing it to come to a correct conclusion.

(FYI, i was never referring to minesweeper with my reasoning)

I think adding yet a third game to prove your point is making things even harder to decipher, but I think you get that you are both saying different things and arguing as though they are the same thing.

 

[MikeMcMann]

guess

1: to form an opinion of from little or no evidence


----

The distinction here is the person playing Chess or Sudoku forms no opinion, which in the games would demonstrated by making a choice and moving a piece or entering a number into a square, before they act.

You only see them form an opinion and make a choice by moving a piece or entering a number into a square AFTER they have TESTED and DECIDED it is correct via evidence (deductive reasoning and quantitative reasoning). Thus not a what is defined as a guess.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I think adding yet a third game to prove your point is making things even harder to decipher, but I think you get that you are both saying different things and arguing as though they are the same thing.

True. I agree.

However mine is applicable to Sudoku and correct and his is not.

If you love additional examples I will add another to show his flaw.

You have two different ways to get to a location suggested by others.

To determine which is the better option you pull it up on a Map and look at the calculated distances and make an informed decision.

Did you 'guess' because at the start you looked at and examined BOTH options before making your decision based on the evidence you gathered?

No. Not if you use the proper definition of 'guiess' as you formed 'no opinion' prior to examining the evidence and only made a choice BASED on evidence.

They are trying to define a guess as 'any examination of potential outcomes before a decision is made'.

That is simply wrong.

 

[CleverGirl]

I used to hate Minesweeper. I still do but I used to too

 

[revoltub]

 

[HunterSdVa29]

the hardest game ever was Max Max on the NES/Famicom

I've literally never seen anyone get past the first level IRL

 

[HunterSdVa29]

I used to hate Minesweeper. I still do but I used to too

solid Hedberg reference

 

[TSO]

Seems like they should be able to create an algorithm that makes a board where you don't have to guess, but this fucking game always comes down to a guess.

Sudoku never requires guessing.

I finally beat minesweeper on expert after playing for like an hour, but it didn't even feel like an accomplishment because I had to do a couple 50/50 guesses and just got lucky on those.

Only your first click had to be a guess.

 

[IIIIIIII]

well, minesweeping, by default, is a guessing game. the real minesweepers were probably sweating bullets, hoping they didn't hit a mine. it's as close to the real thing as one can get to, since minesweeping is about guessing. but i do understand that it's a game, and it would be better to be able to beat a game fairly, assuming you made all the right moves. but in real life, that's not how it works. a lot of success is due to luck.