Why do accomplished Runners do so poorly at MMA cardio?

[-guerilla-]

 

[monkeyrhythm]

I'm not wholly clear what the above videos are bringing to the table but it seems appropriate to respond to "Sprinter vs Marathoner - Two Different Body Types" with a picture of Ross Edgley:

Ross has some pretty incredible endurance accomplishments under his belt including running 30 MARATHONS IN 30 DAYS...

 

[-guerilla-]

" i dont believe in running and then training"

"you should exert yourself in the boxing gym not on the road"

 

[monkeyrhythm]

"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or strengthens one's prior personal beliefs or hypotheses. It is a type of cognitive bias. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply-entrenched beliefs.

People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

A series of psychological experiments in the 1960s suggested that people are biased toward confirming their existing beliefs. Later work re-interpreted these results as a tendency to test ideas in a one-sided way, focusing on one possibility and ignoring alternatives. In certain situations, this tendency can bias people's conclusions. Explanations for the observed biases include wishful thinking and the limited human capacity to process information. Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way. However, even scientists and intelligent people can be prone to confirmation bias."

 

[-guerilla-]

I'm not wholly clear what the above videos are bringing to the table but it seems appropriate to respond to "Sprinter vs Marathoner - Two Different Body Types" with a picture of Ross Edgley:

Ross has some pretty incredible endurance accomplishments under his belt including running 30 MARATHONS IN 30 DAYS...

VS

 

[-guerilla-]

"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or strengthens one's prior personal beliefs or hypotheses. It is a type of cognitive bias. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply-entrenched beliefs.

People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

A series of psychological experiments in the 1960s suggested that people are biased toward confirming their existing beliefs. Later work re-interpreted these results as a tendency to test ideas in a one-sided way, focusing on one possibility and ignoring alternatives. In certain situations, this tendency can bias people's conclusions. Explanations for the observed biases include wishful thinking and the limited human capacity to process information. Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way. However, even scientists and intelligent people can be prone to confirmation bias."

* one of us is a founding father of MMA and a verifiable record breaking coach in combat sports

 

[-guerilla-]

https://youtu.be/DQ4P1ySqbLg

 

[monkeyrhythm]

I'm confused, are the fat fighters supposed to look like sprinters!?


*for the record, I never said, nor do I think that fighters need to look like bodybuilders.

 

[-guerilla-]

I'm confused, are the fat fighters supposed to look like sprinters!?

*for the record, I never said, nor do I think that fighters need to look like bodybuilders.

* nice caveat

The fat guys are NOT
"running for cardio"

Because they CANT

(Yet they display great cardio that confuses announcers and the public alike)

running is VERY abusive on larger frames and is not used by the largest athletes

Like pro football linemen

This thread is a good example of why you should have heavyweight SPECIALIST coach

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ldnt-be-training-heavy-weights.4047737/page-4

(Nice to have an intelligent debate)

 

[-guerilla-]

* waiting for responses to the videos i posted

2 of the most sucessful boxers in modern history straight up saying they dont "RUN FOR CARDIO"

Yet...
(CRICKETS)

 

[Robocok]

* waiting for responses to the videos i posted

2 of the most sucessful boxers in modern history straight up saying they dont "RUN FOR CARDIO"

Yet...
(CRICKETS)

Crickets while you repeatedly click refresh mouth breathing over your keyboard.

You still don't understand periodization and building an aerobic base. You have nothing to say to pyramid training because you don't know much about it.

I agree with some of the ideas you're putting forward, but you have holes in your knowledge that your ego won't allow you to fill because you want to win every conversation.

You and your athletes would be even better if you understood how to properly lay an aerobic base, period. Rest and blast cycles exist in many sports. With a proper aerobic base, your blasts are that much stronger because you've built your aerobic engine.

In detail, this happens for 2 reasons. 1. Because you've spent significant time building your aerobic engine, your output or raw power is now higher when you're working in zones 4 and 5. This is why you see beginners in cardio based sports going all out to keep up with a high level professional while the pro is still able to maintain a conversation and doesn't even come close to going into the red.

The amateur will never develop their aerobic base this way because they don't have the patience, knowledge, or discipline to spend an extended period of time training their base. They get caught up in every little mini battle and break out of their aerobic zone to keep up with better athletes.

They don't go easy enough on their easy days or hard enough on their hard days. When it comes to their approach to training and building a proper base, they're like a ship without a sail, wandering without direction.

2. When a rider with a well developed aerobic base trains their higher zones, they have greater potential to maximize their training and adaptation at these higher levels thanks to their base. Blast style training is the peak of the pyramid or the icing on the cake. It's very powerful medicine and has obvious results.

But you will never have the tallest pyramid or the biggest cake when you always build the peak and use icing.

You need a big base for big pyramids just like you need a big ass cake base of flour and eggs to fit as much icing as possible on.

Now if you have limited amount of time and competition is looming then you need to get in the red and build your peak and apply your icing, otherwise you'll be decimated by the blasts come the day of the competition.

It takes much longer to properly develop an aerobic base then it does to hone the anaerobic system. A few weeks of intense interval training will yield significant results, hence why people fall in love with HIIT.

A few months are necessary to properly build an aerobic engine, just like building a pyramid 10 feet high when you're dealing with a base that's a mile wide will take much longer than going 10 feet up when you have a much smaller base. It takes a lot less bricks.

Your philosophy on tactical energy expenditure/strategy to not gas out early in a fight is a good one. A lot of the things you're saying make sense and people don't want to give you credit on account of how obnoxious you are in insisting that you're always right about everything. Where your knowledge as well as many other martial arts coaches are lacking is in your understanding of periodization and building a proper aerobic foundation starting with zone 5/blue, zone 4/green, zone 3/yellow, zone 2/orange, and your and many other people's favorite zone 1/red.

My own credentials are that I was a state champion in 3 different cycling disciplines- road, mountain, and cross. I will never be the highest level in fighting because I started too late and I didn't develop my body properly for the sport of combat. I'm too frail and my combat skills underdeveloped though much better than a few years ago. Still though, I gas a lot of guys out because I have a much bigger cardio base than many.

Take your strategies and understanding of the specific needs of heavyweights and combine it with an understanding of proper periodization and aerobic base development and your athletes will be veritable monsters, moreso than they are already.

Joe Friel, Greg Lemond, Carmichael Training Systems, and many other cycling, running, and swimming coaches explain these heart rate zone specific philosophies in detail. Apply those heart rate training to wrestling and mma specific training and technique and you will achieve levels you didn't prior.

 

[j-boxing]

Admirable, @monkeyrhythm and @Robocok, but utterly futile as @Sano has pointed out. I know, I've been there.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

* waiting for responses to the videos i posted

2 of the most sucessful boxers in modern history straight up saying they dont "RUN FOR CARDIO"

Yet...
(CRICKETS)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/act...Manny-Pacquiaos-fitness-secrets-revealed.html

Although a boxing ring is just 16-20 square feet in size, pro boxers need supreme cardiovascular fitness to last 12 punishing rounds. Pacquiao routinely performs 4-5 mile runs on the hills and trails of Griffith Park in Los Angeles to develop his stamina. He has also been sprinting on the track and powering up the stadium steps of UCLA’s Drake Stadium. He often runs with his pet Jack Russell terrier, Pacman.

Mayweather also runs 5-8 miles per day, often pounding the streets of Las Vegas late at night. Ahead of the fight with Pacquiao he has taken up swimming to build extra cardiovascular fitness and muscle endurance without subjecting his joints and tendons to additional stress.

I believe Mayweather does run (as per the linked Telegraph article), all he was saying in the video was that he doesn't do it before going to the gym as he wants to be as fresh as possible; this sounds pretty reasonable to me.
A related consideration is that one of the risks of using sports specific training as the only form of cardio, particularly in as technical a striking sport as boxing, is the potential for technique to degrade with fatigue which could ingrain sub-optimal movement patterns.

I could find loads of other examples of top tier boxers who do use running for cardio but I'm not sure where that would get us.
As has been intimated throughout, some sports people succeed in spite of their training methodology rather than because of it. Opinion, based on others opinion (ad infinitum) can only get us so far.

The lessons of history can be powerful. The findings of scientific research can be valuable. Knowledge gained from experience can be useful. The key is invariably how we interpret the information at hand.

 

[Sano]

* waiting for responses to the videos i posted

2 of the most sucessful boxers in modern history straight up saying they dont "RUN FOR CARDIO"

Yet...
(CRICKETS)

Mayweather has run his entire career. Wilder most likely has for years coming up as well.

 

[-guerilla-]

Crickets while you repeatedly click refresh mouth breathing over your keyboard.
You still don't understand periodization and building an aerobic base. You have nothing to say to pyramid training because you don't know much about it.
I agree with some of the ideas you're putting forward, but you have holes in your knowledge that your ego won't allow you to fill because you want to win every conversation.
You and your athletes would be even better if you understood how to properly lay an aerobic base, period. Rest and blast cycles exist in many sports. With a proper aerobic base, your blasts are that much stronger because you've built your aerobic engine.
In detail, this happens for 2 reasons. 1. Because you've spent significant time building your aerobic engine, your output or raw power is now higher when you're working in zones 4 and 5. This is why you see beginners in cardio based sports going all out to keep up with a high level professional while the pro is still able to maintain a conversation and doesn't even come close to going into the red.
The amateur will never develop their aerobic base this way because they don't have the patience, knowledge, or discipline to spend an extended period of time training their base. They get caught up in every little mini battle and break out of their aerobic zone to keep up with better athletes.
They don't go easy enough on their easy days or hard enough on their hard days. When it comes to their approach to training and building a proper base, they're like a ship without a sail, wandering without direction.
2. When a rider with a well developed aerobic base trains their higher zones, they have greater potential to maximize their training and adaptation at these higher levels thanks to their base. Blast style training is the peak of the pyramid or the icing on the cake. It's very powerful medicine and has obvious results.
But you will never have the tallest pyramid or the biggest cake when you always build the peak and use icing.
You need a big base for big pyramids just like you need a big ass cake base of flour and eggs to fit as much icing as possible on.
Now if you have limited amount of time and competition is looming then you need to get in the red and build your peak and apply your icing, otherwise you'll be decimated by the blasts come the day of the competition.
It takes much longer to properly develop an aerobic base then it does to hone the anaerobic system. A few weeks of intense interval training will yield significant results, hence why people fall in love with HIIT.
A few months are necessary to properly build an aerobic engine, just like building a pyramid 10 feet high when you're dealing with a base that's a mile wide will take much longer than going 10 feet up when you have a much smaller base. It takes a lot less bricks.
Your philosophy on tactical energy expenditure/strategy to not gas out early in a fight is a good one. A lot of the things you're saying make sense and people don't want to give you credit on account of how obnoxious you are in insisting that you're always right about everything. Where your knowledge as well as many other martial arts coaches are lacking is in your understanding of periodization and building a proper aerobic foundation starting with zone 5/blue, zone 4/green, zone 3/yellow, zone 2/orange, and your and many other people's favorite zone 1/red.
My own credentials are that I was a state champion in 3 different cycling disciplines- road, mountain, and cross. I will never be the highest level in fighting because I started too late and I didn't develop my body properly for the sport of combat. I'm too frail and my combat skills underdeveloped though much better than a few years ago. Still though, I gas a lot of guys out because I have a much bigger cardio base than many.
Take your strategies and understanding of the specific needs of heavyweights and combine it with an understanding of proper periodization and aerobic base development and your athletes will be veritable monsters, moreso than they are already.
Joe Friel, Greg Lemond, Camichael Training Systems, and many other cycling, running, and swimming coaches explain these heart rate zone specific philosophies in detail. Apply those heart rate training to wrestling and mma specific training and technique and you will achieve levels you didn't prior.

Nobody is waiting eagerly to reply...

I only use this site to cut the boredom at work

As a professional coach certified in multiple disciplines in multiple States and a scientific professional I understand all the sales pitches that have been thrown my way for decades in relation to Combat Sports cardio conditioning with all their silly acronyms and names

I don't have an ego problem and I don't brag....I am simply answering the questions posed to me about my background

It's the same old song and dance as usual... after I draw some fire because of my unique perspectives the peanut gallery tries to interrogate my background in order to disqualify my opinion

Then after they do the Recon they realize that I am exactly who I said I was and resort to accusing me of being a braggart

You sound like an intelligent well-read scientific individual with a legitimate cardio credential background however you do not understand the intricacies of Combat Sports at the same level as a veteran coach does

All these fancy training systems are nothing more than a sales pitch in an attempt to cash in on a very basic and simple principle

Much like the modern soap industry tries to package their cleaning products in cute little single use gel caps in order to produce a new marketable product

I don't have any secrets to sell... the fact is hard work dedication and sacrifice makes people better at athletic performance

Inherently practicing the sport you intend to compete in will also make you better faster and stronger in that particular Sports parameters

Nobody plays racquetball to get better at tennis because they are significantly different sports

Jogging for Combat Sports cardio will die a slow and painful death as modern science reveals more and more about the mysteries of the human body

Nobody's baking a cake or building a pyramid here

We're training athletes to win in a combat encounter and you don't get those kinds of skills (or CARDIO) jogging down the road

That's why accomplished Runners do so poorly at MMA cardio

 

[-guerilla-]

Admirable, @monkeyrhythm and @Robocok, but utterly futile as @Sano has pointed out. I know, I've been there.

# chimes in for moral support

that's adorable

 

[-guerilla-]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/act...Manny-Pacquiaos-fitness-secrets-revealed.html

I believe Mayweather does run (as per the linked Telegraph article), all he was saying in the video was that he doesn't do it before going to the gym as he wants to be as fresh as possible; this sounds pretty reasonable to me.

A related consideration is that one of the risks of using sports specific training as the only form of cardio, particularly in as technical a striking sport as boxing, is the potential for technique to degrade with fatigue which could ingrain sub-optimal movement patterns.

I could find loads of other examples of top tier boxers who do use running for cardio but I'm not sure where that would get us.

As has been intimated throughout, some sports people succeed in spite of their training methodology rather than because of it. Opinion, based on others opinion (ad infinitum) can only get us so far.

The lessons of history can be powerful. The findings of scientific research can be valuable. Knowledge gained from experience can be useful. The key is invariably how we interpret the information at hand.

Mayweather and Deontay Wilder do not avoid sex/ drink raw eggs and go jogging at 5 in the morning because they know those old sport fallacies are nothing more than BS

these Champion athletes have been pushed heavily to adopt the same strategies as their forefathers and have soundly rejected them much to the shock of the average fan

You see with that kind of money involved Superstition and fallacy don't have much room to maneuver

These athletes are not succeeding despite their poor training regimen they are succeeding because they have modernized their training theory

It is a brave statement to say that you have broken from such heralded tradition

People will accuse you of being lazy undisciplined and foolish

Even after your performance proves your theory correct

Deontay Wilder and Floyd Mayweather do not jog for cardio

they box for cardio

I agree you can find loads of people who use conventional wisdom and jog for cardio

that's why they call it conventional wisdom because everybody does it that way and people that break from tradition are ostracized

 

[-guerilla-]

Mayweather has run his entire career. Wilder most likely has for years coming up as well.

All pro boxers go jogging

it's a great stress reliever and everybody expects you to do it

They also have lots of free time to kill and have to give their hands a break

Boxers rarely give away their training tactics when a camera is pointed at them

They just do what is expected of them to get the media spot and then get on with the real job at hand



In the next video Floyd straight up tells you he does not go jogging at 2 in the morning for cardio....

the previous video is a media friendly HJ made for the slack-jawed fans


In this next video Floyd tells it how it is since he isn't surrounded by handlers, minders or participating in an orchestrated media spot thus he can let people know how it is on the real:

"I should exert myself in the boxing gym not on the road"

"I cant go run on the regular and then go sparring"

 

[monkeyrhythm]

As I said earlier, opinion based on others opinion (ad infinitum) can only get us so far.

How do you ascertain what information you should take on board, and what you what you should discard?

 

[-guerilla-]