Why do accomplished Runners do so poorly at MMA cardio?

[Noodles03]

@-guerilla- , I’m not sure if you had answer this question already. But what’s your view point on doing steady state cardio for increasing your mitochondria and your aerobic system?

 

[-guerilla-]

@-guerilla- , I’m not sure if you had answer this question already. But what’s your view point on doing steady state cardio for increasing your mitochondria and your aerobic system?

I dont do any steady state for "cardio"

Only for fun...

I cycle (mountain bike) and swim/surf but i have grown to use a "blast" mentality applied to such activities

Steady state is ONLY GOOD FOR steady state competition...blast is superior in every other possible catagory ESPECIALLY for increasing your mitochondria and aerobic system

I used to believe steady state was a harmless waste of valuable training time but modern science is proving it parastizes fast twitch and lowers testosterone

Running is a poor form of steady state and steady state is a poor style of cardio for combat sports

 

[monkeyrhythm]

Improving your Aerobic Power Capacity

A strong aerobic system allows for higher power production for a longer time (this obviously holds true for all but the very short-duration activities) as it results in a higher power output before reaching the AT and a higher power output and longer time to fatigue after surpassing it. For this reason, a good aerobic base is considered necessary for athletic conditioning development, as it offers the foundation to more effectively train and improve the anaerobic energy systems.

The initial stage of aerobic system development commonly includes large amounts of lower-intensity/longer-duration training, which results in central (increased SV) as well as peripheral (increased capillarity and increased mitochondrial quantity/size/enzymes - mainly in the slow-twitch muscle fibers, as these are the only fibers recruited) adaptations, while the second stage uses increasingly greater amounts of higher-intensity training to cause predominately peripheral adaptations (in both the slow-twitch and the fast-twitch fibers). The initial stage provides the grounds for the second stage to be more effective, because it develops the cardio capacity to provide adequate blood to the harder working muscles and develops the ability of the slow-twitch fibers to better deal with the greater glycolytic byproducts of the second stage.

Large amounts of lower-intensity/longer-duration training is commonly used/recommended for aerobic base development.

 

[-guerilla-]

Large amounts of lower-intensity/longer-duration training is commonly used/recommended for aerobic base development.

Thats called conventional wisdom

If you waste valuable training time running for cardio you are hurting your combat sport performance potential

 

[monkeyrhythm]

Thats called conventional wisdom

So you disagree with the conditioning FAQ?

 

[-guerilla-]

So you disagree with the conditioning FAQ?

I never read em because I've been listening to people talk about conventional wisdom for multiple decades

If you have 2 hrs per day 5 days a week of training time you should spend 0 % of your time jogging for cardio

Do you disagree with the videos I posted??

 

[monkeyrhythm]

I never read em because I've been listening to people talk about conventional wisdom for multiple decades

You should read this one, it’s very good (many of the links are now broken but the information is all good). If the whole FAQ is too much, then how about the specific excerpt I quoted; do you agree or disagree with that?

If you have 2 hrs per day 5 days a week of training time you should spend 0 % of your time jogging for cardio

I do not disagree with this statement.

Do you disagree with the videos I posted??

I do not disagree with the videos you posted per se; however, I struggle to see their relevance?

The one above poses the question “Should Wrestlers Run Cross Country Track?” I absolutely agree with an answer of “probably not”.

The primary factor which seems to have been missed though is one of intensity. The guy in the above video refers to Cross County as LSD (Long Slow Distance) which can be an unhelpful term. LSD is often used interchangeably with LISS (Low Intensity Steady State) but this is not a fitting description of High School Cross Country; the intensity is such that it would fall under MISS (Medium Intensity Steady State).

The type of running performed by the study groups referred to in the video you posted earlier in the thread would also fall under MISS:

The distinction is very important as the physical adaptions of both modalities (LISS vs MISS) are not necessarily the same, and the increased stress of MISS (particularly when performed regularly) would potentially disrupt endocrine system balance (as indicated by the reduced testosterone of the marathon runners); additionally, MISS takes longer to recover from so, without a sufficient rest period, would likely reduce the efficacy of skills practice (if performed on the same day, or the day after a long run for example); also, trying to program in sufficient rest would likely impact the regularity/frequency of skills practice.

I agree with all of this; however, this type of running is very different to the LISS traditionally performed by boxers or Nak Muay (for example). Everything I’ve read would suggest that this type of LISS has the potential to provide aerobic system improvements, act as active recovery (e.g. support rather than impact recovery), and create an optimal state for the practice of visualisation techniques (dependant on the LISS modality used). If you have any references which disagree with these points, I’d be very interested to read them.


P.S. I don’t think anyone could sensibly argue that General Physical Preparation (GPP) such as LISS should ever replace Specific Physical Preparation (SPP) and/or skills training (e.g. sparring, drills etc. for a boxer); the point is simply that where there is a need, and when supported by intelligent programming, it can be a beneficial addition.

 

[-guerilla-]

You should read this one, it’s very good (many of the links are now broken but the information is all good). If the whole FAQ is too much, then how about the specific excerpt I quoted; do you agree or disagree with that?



I do not disagree with this statement.



I do not disagree with the videos you posted per se; however, I struggle to see their relevance?

The one above poses the question “Should Wrestlers Run Cross Country Track?” I absolutely agree with an answer of “probably not”.

The primary factor which seems to have been missed though is one of intensity. The guy in the above video refers to Cross County as LSD (Long Slow Distance) which can be an unhelpful term. LSD is often used interchangeably with LISS (Low Intensity Steady State) but this is not a fitting description of High School Cross Country; the intensity is such that it would fall under MISS (Medium Intensity Steady State).

The type of running performed by the study groups referred to in the video you posted earlier in the thread would also fall under MISS:

The distinction is very important as the physical adaptions of both modalities (LISS vs MISS) are not necessarily the same, and the increased stress of MISS (particularly when performed regularly) would potentially disrupt endocrine system balance (as indicated by the reduced testosterone of the marathon runners); additionally, MISS takes longer to recover from so, without a sufficient rest period, would likely reduce the efficacy of skills practice (if performed on the same day, or the day after a long run for example); also, trying to program in sufficient rest would likely impact the regularity/frequency of skills practice.

I agree with all of this; however, this type of running is very different to the LISS traditionally performed by boxers or Nak Muay (for example). Everything I’ve read would suggest that this type of LISS has the potential to provide aerobic system improvements, act as active recovery (e.g. support rather than impact recovery), and create an optimal state for the practice of visualisation techniques (dependant on the LISS modality used). If you have any references which disagree with these points, I’d be very interested to read them.


P.S. I don’t think anyone could sensibly argue that General Physical Preparation (GPP) such as LISS should ever replace Specific Physical Preparation (SPP) and/or skills training (e.g. sparring, drills etc. for a boxer); the point is simply that where there is a need, and when supported by intelligent programming, it can be a beneficial addition.

Blast cardio is what you need for MMA and all combat sports

I used to think steady state was just a waste of valuable mat time but modern science proves its actually HARMFUL due to slow twitch displacement of fast twitch

The most important reason to NEVER run for cardio is injury potential

And even tho few have mentioned it here's a radical logistic problem with steady state cardio for combat Sports as it requires a lot of free time

This time (if spent in the gym instead of running down the road) is where one learns the critical SKILLS needed to stay compeditive

My wrestling team didn't become radically better at cardiovascular output when I banned running from their wrestling training program they became more proficient at wrestling because they had more time to practice wrestling instead of wasting time running

Why would you run for cardio when you could wrestle for cardio?

I respect your effort but i don't need to read more conventional wisdom

You cant "ADD" something to a training program without displacement of another possible exercise

If you MUST do steady state activities that convey ZERO combat sports skills AT LEAST do ones that are more whole body have lower injury risk and provide more efficient use of time (like cycling or swimming)

 

[monkeyrhythm]

I respect your effort but i don't need to read more conventional wisdom

Ah, that's a shame, I'm personally a big believer in continuous development. The best insight often comes from revisiting a subject multiple times. To quote Nassim Nicholas Taleb — "A good book gets better at the second reading. A great book at the third. Any book not worth rereading isn't worth reading."
History has undoubtedly shown us that at a given time our understanding of human physiology is typically as wrong as it is right (or at least we still have much to learn); that said, I don’t believe that recent advances in “modern science” have disproved anything in the Conditioning FAQ.

Blast cardio is what you need for MMA and all combat sports

What do you mean by “Blast cardio” (just so we’re on the same page)? Do you mean that you believe “MMA and all combat sports” are wholly anaerobic endeavours, like sprinting 100m for example?

I used to think steady state was just a waste of valuable mat time but modern science proves its actually HARMFUL due to slow twitch displacement of fast twitch

Do you have any references for this? As it stands, I’m concerned that you’re conflating LISS (Low Intensity Steady State) and MISS (Medium Intensity Steady State).

The most important reason to NEVER run for cardio is injury potential

This is absolutely a valid concern. Injury risk is often down to the running technique of the individual (and in the right circumstances there are some specific, positive benefits to LISS running); however, let’s shelve running for now and focus on the intensity aspect.

And even tho few have mentioned it here's a radical logistic problem with steady state cardio for combat Sports as it requires a lot of free time

You cant "ADD" something to a training program without displacement of another possible exercise

Not necessarily, more on these points lower down.

This time (if spent in the gym instead of running down the road) is where one learns the critical SKILLS needed to stay compeditive

We’re in absolute agreement that GPP should never displace skills training; we do seem to disagree that it has to though? What if an athlete doesn’t have access to the gym and/or training partners in the off season (for example)?

My wrestling team didn't become radically better at cardiovascular output when I banned running from their wrestling training program they became more proficient at wrestling because they had more time to practice wrestling instead of wasting time running

Again, you replacing running a given number of laps (so there was an impetus to finish as quickly as possible i.e. MISS), with time on the mat was without a doubt the correct thing to do.
To reiterate, we are absolutely on the same page that if a combat athlete is (only) training 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, and during that time they have full access to a gym with training partners etc. then in all likelihood they should not be doing any GPP whatsoever.

Why would you run for cardio when you could wrestle for cardio?

What about when you can’t wrestle? Forget running (specifically), would I be correct in saying that you believe there is almost never a place for General Physical Preparation (GPP) for a combat athlete?

If you MUST do steady state activities that convey ZERO combat sports skills AT LEAST do ones that are more whole body have lower injury risk and provide more efficient use of time (like cycling or swimming)

Swimming is fantastic but I can’t see how it’s a more efficient use of time than running, you have to travel to a pool, get changed etc. There’s also a technique element; not everybody is a competent swimmer.

Cycling is a bit of a funny one in that you typically have to push a little harder to get the same cardiovascular benefits so there’s a risk of post exercise muscular fatigue; also, when used as a modality for steady state training some of the physiological adaptions appear to be particularly cycling specific. Cycling is not really any-more ‘full body’ than running either.
A stationary bike with adjustable resistance can be a fantastic tool for various types of interval training though; and I much prefer cycling to running myself (but that has little to do with which is ‘better’).

I love the idea of the full body workout of something like a VersaClimber but unfortunately, I’ve never had access to one.

How about the type of “Roadwork 2.0” circuit espoused by Joel Jamieson? Circuits built around exercises like:

• Jumping rope
• Swimming
• Bicycling
• Sled dragging
• Shadowboxing
• Elliptical
• Rower
• Medicine ball Circuits
• Heavy Bag or Pad work
• Bodyweight Calisthenics

With the following structure:

• Keep heart rate between 130-150 beats per minute throughout the training session
• Perform each exercise for 5-15 minutes at a time with no rest between exercises
• Overall duration of each training session should be 40-90 minutes
• Ideally, Roadwork 2.0 should be done in a separate training session from strength work
• Include Roadwork 2.0 1-3 times per week depending on your individual needs and goals

This would obviously need a time investment though; as you point out, this type of GPP should never displace skills training.

OR

You’ve used an example (understandably, due to your background) of high school athletes throughout so how about this:
Walking on a treadmill at a high incline, whilst wearing a weighted vest, for 45-60 minutes, whilst keeping heart rate 130-150 beats per minute. The student could listen to a Spanish learning CD, or the audio book of The History of Western Philosophy (for example); so, zero time investment (as they need to study anyway). If their parents own a treadmill (not uncommon) they could even do it at home, before school.

I guess this all comes down to whether or not you subscribe to the view that LISS GPP can be beneficial for a combat athlete. From your posts I suspect you do not; however, I'm still not entirely sure why?


P.S. I am of course oversimplifying certain things here. If an athlete already has excellent cardiovascular endurance verified by measurements such as a low resting heart rate (not perfect but a good indicator) and high VO2 max etc. then steady-state training may well be of limited benefit.

 

[-guerilla-]

Ah, that's a shame, I'm personally a big believer in continuous development. The best insight often comes from revisiting a subject multiple times. To quote Nassim Nicholas Taleb — "A good book gets better at the second reading. A great book at the third. Any book not worth rereading isn't worth reading."
History has undoubtedly shown us that at a given time our understanding of human physiology is typically as wrong as it is right (or at least we still have much to learn); that said, I don’t believe that recent advances in “modern science” have disproved anything in the Conditioning FAQ.

What do you mean by “Blast cardio” (just so we’re on the same page)? Do you mean that you believe “MMA and all combat sports” are wholly anaerobic endeavours, like sprinting 100m for example?

Do you have any references for this? As it stands, I’m concerned that you’re conflating LISS (Low Intensity Steady State) and MISS (Medium Intensity Steady State).

This is absolutely a valid concern. Injury risk is often down to the running technique of the individual (and in the right circumstances there are some specific, positive benefits to LISS running); however, let’s shelve running for now and focus on the intensity aspect.

Not necessarily, more on these points lower down.

We’re in absolute agreement that GPP should never displace skills training; we do seem to disagree that it has to though? What if an athlete doesn’t have access to the gym and/or training partners in the off season (for example)?

Again, you replacing running for a given amount of laps (so there was an impetus to finish as quickly as possible i.e. MISS), with time on the mat was without a doubt the correct thing to do.
To reiterate, we are absolutely on the same page that if a combat athlete is (only) training 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, and during that time they have full access to a gym with training partners etc. then in all likelihood they should not be doing any GPP whatsoever.

What about when you can’t wrestle? Forget running (specifically), would I be correct in saying that you believe there is almost never a place for General Physical Preparation (GPP) for a combat athlete?

Swimming is fantastic but I can’t see how it’s a more efficient use of time than running, you have to travel to a pool, get changed etc. There’s also a technique element; not everybody is a competent swimmer.

Cycling is a bit of a funny one in that you typically have to push a little harder to get the same cardiovascular benefits so there’s a risk of post exercise muscular fatigue; also, when used as a modality for steady state training some of the physiological adaptions appear to be particularly cycling specific. Cycling is not really any-more ‘full body’ than running either.
A stationary bike with adjustable resistance can be a fantastic tool for various types of interval training though; and I much prefer cycling to running myself (but that has little to do with which is ‘better’).

I love the idea of the full body workout of something like a VersaClimber but unfortunately, I’ve never had access to one.

How about the type of “Roadwork 2.0” circuit espoused by Joel Jamieson? Circuits built around exercises like:

• Jumping rope
• Swimming
• Bicycling
• Sled dragging
• Shadowboxing
• Elliptical
• Rower
• Medicine ball Circuits
• Heavy Bag or Pad work
• Bodyweight Calisthenics

With the following structure:

• Keep heart rate between 130-150 beats per minute throughout the training session
• Perform each exercise for 5-15 minutes at a time with no rest between exercises
• Overall duration of each training session should be 40-90 minutes
• Ideally, Roadwork 2.0 should be done in a separate training session from strength work
• Include Roadwork 2.0 1-3 times per week depending on your individual needs and goals

This would obviously need a time investment though; as you point out, this type of GPP should never displace skills training.

OR

You’ve used an example (understandably, due to your background) of high school athletes throughout so how about this:
Walking on a treadmill at a high incline, whilst wearing a weighted vest, for 45-60 minutes, whilst keeping heart rate 130-150 beats per minute. The student could listen to a Spanish learning CD, or the audio book of The History of Western Philosophy (for example); so, zero time investment (as they need to study anyway). If their parents own a treadmill (not uncommon) they could even do it at home, before school.

I guess this all comes down to whether or not you subscribe to the view that LISS GPP can be beneficial for a combat athlete. From your posts I suspect you do not; however, I'm still not entirely sure why?


P.S. I am of course oversimplifying certain things here. If an athlete already has excellent cardiovascular endurance verified by measurements such as a very low resting heart rate (not perfect but a good indicator) and very high VO2 max etc. then steady-state training may well be of limited benefit.

I applaud your intelligent retort and thorough argument however that reply is a rats nest of questions so i will stick to the macro point as my crap internet connection makes complicated multiquote replys a pain

Why would one "run" for cardio when grappling sports (or MMA) sparring is 10x more cardiovascularly demanding?

Its like doing pushups on your knees to max out your bench!

The only logistic argument for not training your sport with a partner is the lack of access to a competant partner which is a real problem

I have had this problem and found other ways to train that convey real fight skills rather than jogging (a lazy vacation compaired to well diciplined blast cardio)

Heavy bag training is absolutely the 3rd bast way to train besides #1 sparring #2 padwork and it requires zero partners

I currently have banana bags regular boxing and round (wrecking balls)

Why in gods name would i go jogging instead of setting a round timer and blasting away at the bags???

With bag work off a timer you ACTUALLY practice real fight skills and gain sport specific cardio while mastering the "steal the round" tactics of hustling just b4 the round ends...

Taking a mountain bike day or body boarding has also always been part of my "non combat" training but thats just because its fun

however do it with a MMA attitude

I know that steady low intensity exercise will not benefit my Combat Sports Performance as much as a "blast, steady, blast, steady cycle"

Then again its always ABUNDANTLY clear that "wrestling for cardio" would have been a more efficient use of my valuable training time

I dont want the athletes I train to jog for cardio because I don't want their fast-twitch muscles replaced with slow-twitch muscles as this will be a major disadvantage in the ring

I am perfectly confident they can build up their mitochondria and everything else required to be a competent combat athlete by sparring, hitting pads and hitting bags

Fighters from Thailand and the American boxing World "jogged for cardio" because they came from poor backgrounds and didn't have access to higher quality cardio options

this practice became ingrained in The lore of training and now occupies a position much higher than its actual worth in the often superstitious and scientifically inaccurate martial arts and combat sports training world

 

[monkeyrhythm]

I applaud your intelligent retort and thorough argument however that reply is a rats nest of questions so i will stick to the macro point as my crap internet connection makes complicated multiquote replys a pain

Why would one "run" for cardio when grappling sports (or MMA) sparring is 10x more cardiovascularly demanding?

Its like doing pushups on your knees to max out your bench!

The only logistic argument for not training your sport with a partner is the lack of access to a competant partner which is a real problem

I have had this problem and found other ways to train that convey real fight skills rather than jogging (a lazy vacation compaired to well diciplined blast cardio)

Heavy bag training is absolutely the 3rd bast way to train besides #1 sparring #2 padwork and it requires zero partners

I currently have banana bags regular boxing and round (wrecking balls)

Why in gods name would i go jogging instead of setting a round timer and blasting away at the bags???

With bag work off a timer you ACTUALLY practice real fight skills and gain sport specific cardio while mastering the "steal the round" tactics of hustling just b4 the round ends...

Taking a mountain bike day or body boarding has also always been part of my "non combat" training but thats just because its fun

however do it with a MMA attitude

I know that steady low intensity exercise will not benefit my Combat Sports Performance as much as a "blast, steady, blast, steady cycle"

Then again its always ABUNDANTLY clear that "wrestling for cardio" would have been a more efficient use of my valuable training time

I dont want the athletes I train to jog for cardio because I don't want their fast-twitch muscles replaced with slow-twitch muscles as this will be a major disadvantage in the ring

I am perfectly confident they can build up their mitochondria and everything else required to be a competent combat athlete by sparring, hitting pads and hitting bags

Fighters from Thailand and the American boxing World "jogged for cardio" because they came from poor backgrounds and didn't have access to higher quality cardio options

this practice became ingrained in The lore of training and now occupies a position much higher than its actual worth in the often superstitious and scientifically inaccurate martial arts and combat sports training world

Right, okay; so, to summarise you don’t believe Low Intensity Steady State (LISS) is of particular benefit for combat sports; High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT – Blast?) is all that’s required?

I think your view is quite common in MMA circles, at least it was a few years ago. I also think it’s misguided.

Joel Jamieson has been the S&C coach for some of the best conditioned UFC fighters to ever step into the Octagon; people like Rich Franklin and Demetrious Johnson (and loads more besides). His article on 8 Weeks Out reads like it was written to respond to this exact thread (even though it’s nearly 8 years old).
https://www.8weeksout.com/2012/02/23/roadwork-2-0-the-comeback/
Here it is for the benefit of the thread:

Conditioning has been integral parts of training for combat sports ever since there have been combat sports. As soon as the first combat athlete gassed – probably within the first minute or two of the fight no doubt – it quickly became obvious that any sort of hand to hand combat is incredibly physically grueling and not easy to do for long. Because of this, combat athletes and coaches alike have long been searching for the most effective ways to get in better shape and ready to fight from bell to bell.

For countless years, one of the most relied upon methods used by wrestlers, boxers and other combat athletes to accomplish this was challenging task was good old fashioned roadwork. Everyone from Mohammad Ali to Aleksandr Karelin to Nick Diaz has been seen hitting the pavement and putting in their miles when getting ready for a fight.

In recent years, however, despite the obvious success of those who have used it in the past, a growing trend in mixed martial arts circles has been to condemn any form of longer, slower paced training as outdated, overrated and unnecessary. The typical argument used to support such statements is that combat sports are not long and slow events and so training to get in shape for them should not be long or slow either – this is the basic principles of specificity, coaches often say. Many have even gone so far as to claim that anything other than high intensity intervals are a waste of time and can potentially lead to detrimental decreases in speed and performance.

Although there is little doubt that all combat sports do require explosive strength and power, of course, there is much more to the roadwork story than such perspectives are often inclined to admit. While proclaiming roadwork and aerobic training are unnecessary might make for catchy headlines and sound bites, in this article I’m going to tell you why longer, slower, steady-state cardio training will soon be making a comeback and I’m even going to give you a new twist on this age old training method that will make it more effective than ever.

The Great Roadwork Debate
Given the longstanding success and world class conditioning of some of combat sports greatest athletes throughout history that have been known to incorporate roadwork into their training, it may seem a bit surprising that it has come under attack in recent years as being an ineffective way to get in shape to fight. Along these lines, coaches arguing against the use of roadwork have frequently cited several reasons as to why they believe this type of training should be abandoned by combat athletes in favor of higher intensity training methods.

Although each of their reasons may sound logical on the surface, it’s important to take a more thorough look at their three most commonly named reasons to see if they hold up to the scrutiny of experience and the scientific method, or if there is more to the roadwork story than can be read in the headlines. Those advocating against roadwork most often argue:

• Research shows better results from high intensity intervals
• Combat sports are explosive and anaerobic, not slow and aerobic
• Roadwork takes too much time
• Research on Roadwork Really Say?

There is no doubt that there is recent research that shows high intensity interval training can be a more effective conditioning method than longer, slower, steady-state training such as roadwork. Almost all of these studies have focused on using VO2 max, the most commonly referenced measurement of aerobic fitness in scientific literature, as the measuring stick of changes in aerobic fitness and conditioning. Virtually all of the frequently cited studies have been no more than 6-8 weeks in length.

These two facts alone underscore the need for context when it comes to interpretation of research. First, when measuring only a few weeks at a time, it can be very easy to misinterpret the findings and extrapolate the conclusions beyond their limitations. A closer examination of the studies comparing intervals to steady state conditioning methods reveals that those in the higher intensity groups do, in fact, tend make more rapid improvements in VO2 max.

The problem, however, is that they also plateau much faster as well when compared to those in the lower intensity training groups. The infamous Tabata research, for example, one of the most commonly cited pieces of literature used to disparage the use of roadwork, showed that the improvements in VO2 max of those in the interval training group plateaued after just 3 weeks. Those in the steady-state group, on the other hand, continued to make improvements throughout the study period.

Second, although research is often limited to measuring a single variable of aerobic fitness and conditioning like VO2 max for the sake of measurement and standardization, the real world of conditioning is far more complex than that. There is no single measurement or variable that will always directly correlate with an athlete’s aerobic fitness or conditioning level, there are many different pieces to the puzzle. Looking at VO2 max, or any other single variable alone, does not provide an accurate reflection of a combat athlete’s conditioning level.

The bottom line is that looking through the research can help provide clues and valuable pieces of information, but the evidence must be carefully examined within the context of practical experience and the inherent limitations of only measuring changes in a small number of variables over a relatively short period of time. Training and performance are complex, multifactorial, year round processes and this must always be taken into account when trying to use research to validate, or invalidate, the use of various training methods like roadwork.

Are Combat Sports Anaerobic?
Another of the arguments often used to support the exclusive use of interval methods instead of steady-state training is that combat sports are explosive and therefore anaerobic in nature. The biggest problem with this argument is simply that it’s not true. On the contrary, combat sorts require high levels of both aerobic and anaerobic fitness, but the overall majority, i.e. greater than 50% of the energy necessary to fight, comes from the aerobic energy system.

How do we know this is the case? Well, for one thing, performance in sports that really are highly anaerobic, sports like like weightlifting, Olympic lifting, 100m sprinting, field events, etc. cannot be repeated without very long rest periods. Try asking a sprinter to run 100m at full speed and then run another one 20 seconds later and see what happens – I guarantee he or she will look at you like you’re crazy!

In combat sports, the skills are certainly explosive, but they’re also highly repetitive and sub- maximal. You aren’t throwing every single punch or kick as hard as you possibly could. You aren’t putting every ounce of strength and power into every single movement because everyone knows that if you did that, you’d quickly gas out.

The bottom line is that all combat sports require a balance of both aerobic and anaerobic energy development. Writing off methods like roadwork that have been proven for years to effectively increase aerobic fitness simply because they may appear slower than the skills of the sport is like saying there is no reason to do anything but spar because that’s the closet speed to an actual fight.

Roadwork is Time Consuming
A lot of proponents for the “nothing but intervals” approach also argue that even if roadwork is effective, it simply takes too much time and you can get the same results with less time using higher intensity training. The truth is that roadwork does take more time than doing an interval workout, there is no doubt, but this also is part of why it’s able to deliver more long-term results.

As discussed previously, higher intensity methods often lead to greater progress in the short run, but this comes at the expense of plateaus and stagnation. Lower intensity methods may not work as fast, but they produce much more long-term consistent increases in aerobic fitness and when it comes right down to it, improving conditioning and performance requires time and hard work. As much as it might sound good to say you can achieve better results in 4 minutes than you can in 40 minutes, the real world has proven this idea to be nothing more than wishful thinking.

Just as a combat athlete shouldn’t expect to learn the skills and techniques of the sport in a short amount of time, conditioning and physical preparation should also be viewed as a long-term process that requires time and consistency. Those looking for the shortcut or the easiest route are often left lacking development and gassed out before those who are willing to put in the time it takes to get better.

The Return of Roadwork for Conditioning
Given the amount of misinformation that’s been used to support the idea that roadwork should be abandoned as a form of training, it’s no surprise that the current interval crazy has failed to produce the results so often promised by those advocating it. Despite the endless promotion of interval training as the only form of training necessary, the world of combat sports has not seen a noticeable increase in conditioning over this time. If anything, in fact, the general conditioning level of fighters today is worse than it’s been in the past.

Rarely does a major MMA event go by that we aren’t seeing at least one or more fights won or lost due to conditioning. This is happening at all levels and even in world championship fights no less!

If intervals really are the answer and roadwork and lower intensity methods of training are unnecessary, then where are the results? Why do we still see so many fighters gassing out even though the use of interval training is at an all-time high?

My prediction is that in the coming months and years, the combat sports community at large will begin to realize that although training with high intensity all the time might sound like a good idea in theory, it just doesn’t pan out in the real world. As a result, there will be a renewed interest in good old fashioned roadwork and we’ll start to see more combat athletes hitting the street once again in the name of conditioning.

Roadwork 2.0: The Comeback
When used properly, roadwork is an effective way to increase aerobic fitness and improve conditioning without putting the high level of stress on the body that’s inherent to higher intensity interval methods. Training for combat sports is already brutally demanding and trying to sprint at top speeds and use explosive conditioning methods all the time on top of hours of physically grueling skill work is not the best recipe for long-term success.

Likewise, hitting the pavement for hours on end isn’t always the best approach either and running large volumes and long distances can also take its toll on the body as well. There’s also times where running may not be the most practical option given different climates and times of year.

In order to solve these problems and make roadwork type training more effective than ever, I started using a new method of this age old approach with all the fighters I’ve trained several years and the results have been highly impressive. I’ve used this form of training with everyone from Rich Franklin to Tim Boetsch and they’ve all reported consistent improvements in conditioning and fitness using the principles laid out below.

Going Off Road for Conditioning
The biggest change in Roadwork 2.0 is that running doesn’t have to be the only form of training used. In fact, I often use other forms of exercise and training that are lower impact than running such as:

• Jumping rope
• Swimming
• Bicycling
• Sled dragging
• Shadowboxing
• Elliptical
• Rower
• Medicine ball Circuits
• Heavy Bag or Pad work
• Bodyweight Calisthenics

Using these types of activities can provide the same level of benefit as running, while putting less stress and wear and tear on the joints. There is no reason that all roadwork needs to actually be done on the road, there are endless other forms of steady state training that are equally effective, more practical and less monotonous than running. Because of this, I prefer to use a mixture of steady state running and Roadwork circuits as described below.

Roadwork Conditioning Circuits
Aside from expanding the type of exercises used overall, I’ve also increased the variety within a given steady state training session and often use a form of circuit training. Although most people associate circuits with performing an exercise for only a few seconds to a minute at most, I have my athletes perform each exercise in a roadwork circuit for 5-10 minutes at a time.

Not only does this break up the monotony of training, it increases the number of different muscles that will get worked within a given training session. When combat specific exercises like shadowboxing are included, it has an added benefit of increasing the specificity of the training as well.

Roadwork 2.0 Training Guidelines
There are just a few key guidelines that need to be followed in order to make roadwork 2.0 as effective as possible. As long as you pay attention to these simple details, there is literally an endless combination of possible exercises and roadwork 2.0 training programs that can be put together to improve conditioning.

• Keep heart rate between 130-150 beats per minute throughout the training session
• Perform each exercise for 5-15 minutes at a time with no rest between exercises
• Overall duration of each training session should be 40-90 minutes
• Ideally, Roadwork 2.0 should be done in a separate training session from strength work
• Include Roadwork 2.0 1-3 times per week depending on your individual needs and goals

Getting Started with Roadwork 2.0

Lower intensity exercise like Roadwork 2.0 helps promote blood flow and recovery, stimulates an increase in mitochondria (the cellular energy workhorses), builds work capacity and helps replenish levels of an important neurotransmitter called dopamine that gets depleted during high intensity training.

Countless athletes that I’ve had start performing this type of training have reported feeling and performing better in as little as a few weeks. Give Roadwork 2.0 a try and see for yourself what combat athletes across all generations have known since the beginning of the sport, roadwork flat out works. Within 8 weeks, it’s possible to dramatically improve aerobic fitness and conditioning with consistent training and an effectively managed program.

I get the distinct impression it’s not going to do much to sway your opinion, so I guess this is the point we agree to disagree.

 

[-guerilla-]

Right, okay; so, to summarise you don’t believe Low Intensity Steady State (LISS) is of particular benefit for combat sports; High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT – Blast?) is all that’s required?

I think your view is quite common in MMA circles, at least it was a few years ago. I also think it’s misguided.

Joel Jamieson has been the S&C coach for some of the best conditioned UFC fighters to ever step into the Octagon; people like Rich Franklin and Demetrious Johnson (and loads more besides). His article on 8 Weeks Out reads like it was written to respond to this exact thread (even though it’s nearly 8 years old).
https://www.8weeksout.com/2012/02/23/roadwork-2-0-the-comeback/
Here it is for the benefit of the thread:

I get the distinct impression it’s not going to do much to sway your opinion, so I guess this is the point we agree to disagree.

From your link

"There is no doubt that there is recent research that shows high intensity interval training can be a more effective conditioning method than longer, slower, steady-state training such as roadwork"

*IMO
sparring/pad/bag work=HITT

Sport specific hiit

Dont waste your time jogging for cardio when you could be grappling for cardio

Jogging is a poor form of steady state and steady state is a poor combat cardio

Lazy trainers love running because they are getting paid for nothing

My highschool wrestling coach sat in his office and smoked cigarettes while he watched tv as his athletes wasted 1/2 our practice jogging!!!

No wonder i crushed all the school records after i took over the team

Jogging just got ingrained into training lore and will one day be viewed as an archaic vestige of fight sport fallacy like lots of silly crap fighters dont believe anymore

 

[Robocok]

From your link

"There is no doubt that there is recent research that shows high intensity interval training can be a more effective conditioning method than longer, slower, steady-state training such as roadwork"

*IMO
sparring/pad/bag work=HITT

Sport specific hiit

Dont waste your time jogging for cardio when you could be grappling for cardio

Jogging is a poor form of steady state and steady state is a poor combat cardio

Lazy trainers love running because they are getting paid for nothing

My highschool wrestling coach sat in his office and smoked cigarettes while he watched tv as his athletes wasted 1/2 our practice jogging!!!

No wonder i crushed all the school records after i took over the team

Jogging just got ingrained into training lore and will one day be viewed as an archaic vestige of fight sport fallacy like lots of silly crap fighters dont believe anymore

You're never going to build as strong of an aerobic base if you always train at a high heart rate. I'm kind of with you on spending as much time as possible using training time to develop your technique doing the actual sport you're trying to improve at but you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to developing your aerobic engine optimally. Lower heart rate zone training definitely has a role in building your engine.

It's like a guy who wants to be a top sprinter doing nothing but sprints. It's a stupid way to train. They're obviously an important part of his program, but he'll never going to be at the level of a guy who develops all of his energy systems systematically using periodization in the pyramid/cake approach.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

From your link

"There is no doubt that there is recent research that shows high intensity interval training can be a more effective conditioning method than longer, slower, steady-state training such as roadwork"

Absolutely, and this is what catches many people out. There are two main limitations with the studies in question; they were run over a short time-period (6-8 weeks), and they specifically measured increases in VO2 Max. There’s obviously much more to MMA Cardio than VO2 Max. Ryan Hall, the US Marathon record holder has been measured as having an exceptionally high VO2 Max of 81; however, the whole premise of this thread is that chances are a runner like him would have poor MMA cardio (at least to begin with).

That’s not to say that the findings from HIIT studies don’t have relevance, just that you can’t conclude from the studies in question that LISS is bad, or that slower, steady-state work doesn’t have a place in the conditioning training of an MMA athlete. Both HIIT and LISS have specific benefits, training only one means you miss out on the unique benefits of the other. In fact, research suggests that the better the aerobic foundation, the more effective higher intensity training is at inducing peripheral adaptions (in both the slow-twitch and the fast-twitch fibers). The aerobic base created by modalities like LISS develop the cardio capacity to provide adequate blood to the harder working muscles and develop the ability of the slow-twitch fibers to better deal with the greater glycolytic byproducts of higher intensity training.

A couple of analogies may be helpful:
If we consider powerlifting then the ultimate expression of specificity would be to just train the big 3 lifts; however, without exception all top tier powerlifters do significant accessory work in addition to the big 3. Going even further, a growing number of powerlifting coaches now recommend that a beginner with competitive ambitions include a significant amount of hypertrophy training early on e.g. they create a muscular base on which to build upon. This may go counter to intuition for some, research suggests that hypertrophy training may transform some muscle fibers from Type IIB to Type IIAB to Type IIA (from highest force/power/speed producing to less so); in spite of this it does appear to be an effective and sensible approach.

Nutrition’s another good one. Vegan’s extoll the virtues of removing all animal products from the diet; in contrast, proponents of the carnivore diet focus on a different set of benefits to eating only animal products. Paleo dieters avoid beans and pulses as they contain “anti-nutrients”, ignoring the fact that all of the longest living groups of people on the planet eat shitloads of them.

History has shown us that we should be very careful not to extrapolate the findings of scientific studies and apply the conclusions drawn too widely; this is what facilitated the low-fat revolution, anti-vaxxers, the creation of processed foods like hydrogenated fats, high-fructose corn syrup and nutrient poor (early) baby formulas, and the emergence of weight machines for strength training.

 

[-guerilla-]

Absolutely, and this is what catches many people out. There are two main limitations with the studies in question; they were run over a short time-period (6-8 weeks), and they specifically measured increases in VO2 Max. There’s obviously much more to MMA Cardio than VO2 Max. Ryan Hall, the US Marathon record holder has been measured as having an exceptionally high VO2 Max of 81; however, the whole premise of this thread is that chances are a runner like him would have poor MMA cardio (at least to begin with).

That’s not to say that the findings from HIIT studies don’t have relevance, just that you can’t conclude from the studies in question that LISS is bad, or that slower, steady-state work doesn’t have a place in the conditioning training of an MMA athlete. Both HIIT and LISS have specific benefits, training only one means you miss out on the unique benefits of the other. In fact, research suggests that the better the aerobic foundation, the more effective higher intensity training is at inducing peripheral adaptions (in both the slow-twitch and the fast-twitch fibers). The aerobic base created by modalities like LISS develop the cardio capacity to provide adequate blood to the harder working muscles and develop the ability of the slow-twitch fibers to better deal with the greater glycolytic byproducts of higher intensity training.

A couple of analogies may be helpful:
If we consider powerlifting then the ultimate expression of specificity would be to just train the big 3 lifts; however, without exception all top tier powerlifters do significant accessory work in addition to the big 3. Going even further, a growing number of powerlifting coaches now recommend that a beginner with competitive ambitions include a significant amount of hypertrophy training early on e.g. they create a muscular base on which to build upon. This may go counter to intuition for some, research suggests that hypertrophy training may transform some muscle fibers from Type IIB to Type IIAB to Type IIA (from highest force/power/speed producing to less so); in spite of this it does appear to be an effective and sensible approach.

Nutrition’s another good one. Vegan’s extoll the virtues of removing all animal products from the diet; in contrast, proponents of the carnivore diet focus on a different set of benefits to eating only animal products. Paleo dieters avoid beans and pulses as they contain “anti-nutrients”, ignoring the fact that all of the longest living groups of people on the planet eat shitloads of them.

History has shown us that we should be very careful not to extrapolate the findings of scientific studies and apply the conclusions drawn too widely; this is what facilitated the low-fat revolution, anti-vaxxers, the creation of processed foods like hydrogenated fats, high-fructose corn syrup and nutrient poor (early) baby formulas, and the emergence of weight machines for strength training.

awesome reply...i like the way you present the argument that taking time OUT of sport specific training will make you better at the specific sport you have chosen to train for

the day runners grapple for "cardio"

tennis players play racquetball for "coordination"

and gymnasts do judo to learn to "fall"

is the day i abandon MMA training mat time for distance running

Let's face it... mixed martial arts is not yet considered its own style in the United States and therefore we treat it just as it is named "mixed martial arts"

We don't actually train in a single sport of mixed martial arts we "GLUE" kickboxing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and wrestling together and call it MMA

The fact is every jackass trainer out there is trying to sell their clients on a "secret training regimen"

like a recipe for baking a cake that will be superior to others recipe

The plain and simple fact is that there are no secrets and there are no magic training techniques

If you want to be good at a sport you should train that Sport and nothing else

you shouldn't run you shouldn't lift weights

You shouldn't train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu you shouldn't train in kickboxing and you shouldn't train in wrestling

In a perfect world you would show up to the mixed martial arts gym warm up for 5 minutes and then start grappling with strikes

I will concede that it would be too rough on the human body to solely Spar MMA for all your mat time so in order to take the limitations of the human body's ability to withstand punishment in consideration I would expect athletes to hit the heavy bag and or roll for submission with an MMA Style (NOT GRAPPLING SPORTS with point systems)

At my gym athletes showed up...

Warmed up...

Then either rolled (MMA style)...NOT GRAPPLING SPORTS

Hit bags or pads and or sparred MMA

Thats it!

No fancy recipes...just MMA

Remember when you're out there on your long leisurely distance run you could have been in the gym practicing hardcore fight techniques while gaining sport specific cardio at the same time...

 

[-guerilla-]

You're never going to build as strong of an aerobic base if you always train at a high heart rate. I'm kind of with you on spending as much time as possible using training time to develop your technique doing the actual sport you're trying to improve at but you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to developing your aerobic engine optimally. Lower heart rate zone training definitely has a role in building your engine.

It's like a guy who wants to be a top sprinter doing nothing but sprints. It's a stupid way to train. They're obviously an important part of his program, but he'll never going to be at the level of a guy who develops all of his energy systems systematically using periodization in the pyramid/cake approach.

View attachment 711129

Robocok said:
"You're never going to build as strong of an aerobic base if you always train at a high heart rate"

You will naturally have rest and blast Cycles during MMA training

Quite often "cardio cooking" your opponent is one of the best ways to win a fight

I teach amateurs to always win the first takedown and not try too hard to hit or finish their opponent in the first exchanges

Never go out there and try to land a big Haymaker or go for a complicated submission technique when you could have just pinned your opponent to the ground and made them work hard to escape your hold...

Especially at the beginner levels you can "cardio cook" your opponent who has now worked so hard to escape your hold that you have a phenomenal cardio advantage

I can remember quite likely the dumbest advice ever given to new heavyweight wrestlers

"Shoot, shoot" they would yell from the sidelines expecting this young man with very little cardio and weakened hips/legs (because of the running) to dive under their opponent with a beautiful leg shot and score a world-class lift or throw

STUPID!!!!

This poor kid is likely so beat up in the lower body that they'd have a hard time shooting in on their little sister much less the competent heavyweight in front of them

It's 1000 times more intelligent for a new heavyweight wrestler to try to score a slide by style of takedown (off standing head and arm control) rather than to shoot in on a traditional giant step Style double leg !!

In fact I taught most of my new heavyweights to achieve the front headlock and just sprawl out on the ground dragging their opponent down to their hands and knees at that point I would instruct them to spin behind their opponent get their two points and ride him until he was exhausted trying to escape

Under no circumstances should that new athlete try to pin or turn that opponent within the first few seconds of scoring his go behind

Wait until that athlete is trying desperately to escape your hold down and then he will be exhausted and likely vulnerable for a big pining or breakdown maneuver because he is doing something foolish trying to escape your hold down

Winning the first takedown is a critical fight tactic when everybody on the mat has such a limited gas tank

Luckily my athletes were on the mat learning wrestling instead of running down the road in some misguided attempt to boost their "cardio"

My athletes were building fast twitch fibers WHILE learning real fight specific techniques AND building wrestling specific blast/rest cardio at the same time

 

[Sano]

Absolutely, and this is what catches many people out. There are two main limitations with the studies in question; they were run over a short time-period (6-8 weeks), and they specifically measured increases in VO2 Max. There’s obviously much more to MMA Cardio than VO2 Max. Ryan Hall, the US Marathon record holder has been measured as having an exceptionally high VO2 Max of 81; however, the whole premise of this thread is that chances are a runner like him would have poor MMA cardio (at least to begin with).

That’s not to say that the findings from HIIT studies don’t have relevance, just that you can’t conclude from the studies in question that LISS is bad, or that slower, steady-state work doesn’t have a place in the conditioning training of an MMA athlete. Both HIIT and LISS have specific benefits, training only one means you miss out on the unique benefits of the other. In fact, research suggests that the better the aerobic foundation, the more effective higher intensity training is at inducing peripheral adaptions (in both the slow-twitch and the fast-twitch fibers). The aerobic base created by modalities like LISS develop the cardio capacity to provide adequate blood to the harder working muscles and develop the ability of the slow-twitch fibers to better deal with the greater glycolytic byproducts of higher intensity training.

A couple of analogies may be helpful:
If we consider powerlifting then the ultimate expression of specificity would be to just train the big 3 lifts; however, without exception all top tier powerlifters do significant accessory work in addition to the big 3. Going even further, a growing number of powerlifting coaches now recommend that a beginner with competitive ambitions include a significant amount of hypertrophy training early on e.g. they create a muscular base on which to build upon. This may go counter to intuition for some, research suggests that hypertrophy training may transform some muscle fibers from Type IIB to Type IIAB to Type IIA (from highest force/power/speed producing to less so); in spite of this it does appear to be an effective and sensible approach.

Nutrition’s another good one. Vegan’s extoll the virtues of removing all animal products from the diet; in contrast, proponents of the carnivore diet focus on a different set of benefits to eating only animal products. Paleo dieters avoid beans and pulses as they contain “anti-nutrients”, ignoring the fact that all of the longest living groups of people on the planet eat shitloads of them.

History has shown us that we should be very careful not to extrapolate the findings of scientific studies and apply the conclusions drawn too widely; this is what facilitated the low-fat revolution, anti-vaxxers, the creation of processed foods like hydrogenated fats, high-fructose corn syrup and nutrient poor (early) baby formulas, and the emergence of weight machines for strength training.

You'll get absolutely nowhere with this guy, but you put in a valid effort.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

You'll get absolutely nowhere with this guy, but you put in a valid effort.

Oh I know, I have found it a useful exercise though.

 

[Robocok]

Robocok said:
"You're never going to build as strong of an aerobic base if you always train at a high heart rate"

You will naturally have rest and blast Cycles during MMA training

Quite often "cardio cooking" your opponent is one of the best ways to win a fight

I teach amateurs to always win the first takedown and not try too hard to hit or finish their opponent in the first exchanges

Never go out there and try to land a big Haymaker or go for a complicated submission technique when you could have just pinned your opponent to the ground and made them work hard to escape your hold...

Especially at the beginner levels you can "cardio cook" your opponent who has now worked so hard to escape your hold that you have a phenomenal cardio advantage

I can remember quite likely the dumbest advice ever given to new heavyweight wrestlers

"Shoot, shoot" they would yell from the sidelines expecting this young man with very little cardio and weakened hips/legs (because of the running) to dive under their opponent with a beautiful leg shot and score a world-class lift or throw

STUPID!!!!

This poor kid is likely so beat up in the lower body that they'd have a hard time shooting in on their little sister much less the competent heavyweight in front of them

It's 1000 times more intelligent for a new heavyweight wrestler to try to score a slide by style of takedown (off standing head and arm control) rather than to shoot in on a traditional giant step Style double leg !!

In fact I taught most of my new heavyweights to achieve the front headlock and just sprawl out on the ground dragging their opponent down to their hands and knees at that point I would instruct them to spin behind their opponent get their two points and ride him until he was exhausted trying to escape

Under no circumstances should that new athlete try to pin or turn that opponent within the first few seconds of scoring his go behind

Wait until that athlete is trying desperately to escape your hold down and then he will be exhausted and likely vulnerable for a big pining or breakdown maneuver because he is doing something foolish trying to escape your hold down

Winning the first takedown is a critical fight tactic when everybody on the mat has such a limited gas tank

Luckily my athletes were on the mat learning wrestling instead of running down the road in some misguided attempt to boost their "cardio"

My athletes were building fast twitch fibers WHILE learning real fight specific techniques AND building wrestling specific blast/rest cardio at the same time

Your ego and need to be right prevents you and your athletes from being as good as they could be. The type of training you're describing has an important place in a program but it's like cake icing. You use too much icing and not enough flour for the base of the cake. You're not going to have as big of a cake as possible if you don't spend more time on the base. Build a larger aerobic base, then the blasts will be more effective. Pyramid training

 

[monkeyrhythm]

If you want to be good at a sport you should train that Sport and nothing else

And this is probably the ideal point to draw a line under things. The most successful sports people in the majority of sports do not follow this methodology; they follow carefully designed Strength and Conditioning programmes to support their sport specific activities.

I understand that you have a different viewpoint, and as I said earlier, I have found our exchange beneficial.