Whose title is more fraudulent?

[Cartiac]

Because if it wasn’t important we would scrap the title structure entirely. The UFC could assign new title fights in every division on every event if it wasn’t.

For the record, I don’t consider either title reign to be fraudulent. But if we’re going to ask which one is the most legitimate (or least fraudulent) then we have to consider that only one of them actually beat the lineal champ. You’re arguing that Jones’ win was more impressive, but that’s a different conversation entirely. I may even be inclined to agree with you on that point. I think it’s too close to call but I can see the argument either way.

Really having trouble following you, so if a champion retires with the belt it is all over? Since no one can ever beat that champ for the real belt it is gone forever, no one can ever be champ again?

I am not arguing Jones's win was more impressive at all. If you actually can't figure out the answer to such a stupid question, the answer is neither. There is nothing to even consider. Both wins made them undisputed champions of those divisions, there is nothing that makes one any more legitimate than the other.

Although it was pretty savage that GSP didn't even want the stupid belt, he just wanted to take it from Bisping

 

[nonoob]

I think Jon could possibly run through a lot of the HWs

Running through HWs is not in Jon's vocabulary. It never has been, it never will be.

Jon's been running away from every HW since DC in 2013.

 

[HavokHarmon]

Really having trouble following you, so if a champion retires with the belt it is all over? Since no one can ever beat that champ for the real belt it is gone forever, no one can ever be champ again?

I am not arguing Jones's win was more impressive at all. If you actually can't figure out the answer to such a stupid question, the answer is neither. There is nothing to even consider. Both wins made them undisputed champions of those divisions, there is nothing that makes one any more legitimate than the other.

Although it was pretty savage that GSP didn't even want the stupid belt, he just wanted to take it from Bisping

Historically oftentimes when a champion retires with the belt, yes the person who wins it out of vacancy is not immediately considered the legitimate champ by many. Usually it takes some time and a few defenses for that person to solidify themselves. I’m surprised you didn’t know that.

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

I guess GSP is still #1 at WW??? Khabib is still ranked #1 at LW??

They're both retired.

Jon isn't the best HW in the UFC he only has 1 win in his entire career as a HW.
If you are a Jon fan why do you want to proclaim him the best without seeing him actually fight?

I don't know if I've ever proclaimed him the best, I'm just trying to keep people here honest. There are so many half-truths and outright lies floating around.

 

[Mammothman]

No, it's idiotic hater nonsense. TS should be ashamed of himself, and so should you.

No, it's the reality.

And nothing wrong with that, just goats trying to further their legacy, it is what it is.

 

[Mammothman]

Not at all

I'm pretty sure he did.

 

[RedDevilFan]

Gane has 9-2 record in the UFC HW division. 8 ranked opponents and 6-2 record. Bisping has 29 fights in the UFC 4-1 record at LHW, At MW he has 24 fights and while I am too lazy to check rankings at the time the majority were top 10. 16-8 record and 11 of those fights were with one eye. Bisping won the Undisputed UFC MW championship while Gane won the UFC #1 contender belt. Maybe Gane COULD be a better MMA fighter then Bisping but he hasn't proven it yet. Gane is a very good kickboxer and he has only faced one guy with high level TDs and he got schooled. Gane's success is primarily due to a massive dearth of HWs with any wrestling right now.

Gane is an elite kick boxer and the best striker at HW. Gane is 12-2 and has only lost to a prime Ngannou and Jones. Jones is not a litmus test of high TD or grappling, he is far superior to most of the HW's and fighters in the UFC on the ground. Jones regularly submits black belts and is an elite. No one at MW that Bisping has fought is comparable to a prime Ngannou, that Gane lost too for the belt. Gane has grappling and submission wins and has fought fighters with grappling and BJJ backgrounds on their record at HW.

Bisping is a well rounded serviceable fighter but he was never elite and never considered a top division fighter. He was a journeyman fighter till he struck gold with Rockhold. A Rockhold with a fading chin who did not take him seriously. He also has not beaten a top division elite fighter in their prime.

The comparison is ridiculous

 

[w00t]

Well, GSP beat the actual champion. Call Bisping weak all you want, but he won the belt from the guy who won the belt from the guy that smashed Anderson. Same belt.

Jones won a vacated title over a guy who just lost to the other guy he had been ducking.

 

[gosuasus]

Let's relive this

 

[gosuasus]

Let's relive this

Isn't it farcical how Hendricks was given prime Costa (dangerous MW contender) while GSP was allowed to cherry pick a weak champion haha... And Johny had a win over Lombard at MW at the time.

This version of Costa Hendricks is fighting would destroy both GSP and Bisping together on this very same night.

 

[Ares Black]

No, it's the reality.

Your reality, maybe.

And nothing wrong with that,

Sure there is. It's fucking nonsense.

just goats trying to further their legacy,

Which they did, but losers on a karate forum still talk shit

it is what it is.

Yeah, disrespectful bullshit.

 

[Cartiac]

Historically oftentimes when a champion retires with the belt, yes the person who wins it out of vacancy is not immediately considered the legitimate champ by many. Usually it takes some time and a few defenses for that person to solidify themselves. I’m surprised you didn’t know that.

You are definitely new to this. That is not the champion rule bro. You should probably take notes.

The law of champions was relayed from the MMA Gods by the great Matt Hughes, "Choker of standing Triggs", "He who wakes up first wins", "Crusher of trains" and states the following:

In order for one to earn the right to honorable hold the title of champion of MMA, one must not only successful engage in mutual combat to acquire the belt of MMA champions under such conditions that no other combatant lay rightful claim but one must then defeat another worthy adversary in mutual combat while holding the acquired belt of MMA champions. Only then shall one be granted the title of Champion of MMA.

 

[HavokHarmon]

You are definitely new to this. That is not the champion rule bro. You should probably take notes.

The law of champions was relayed from the MMA Gods by the great Matt Hughes, "Choker of standing Triggs", "He who wakes up first wins", "Crusher of trains" and states the following:

In order for one to earn the right to honorable hold the title of champion of MMA, one must not only successful engage in mutual combat to acquire the belt of MMA champions under such conditions that no other combatant lay rightful claim but one must then defeat another worthy adversary in mutual combat while holding the acquired belt of MMA champions. Only then shall one be granted the title of Champion of MMA.

Sleep it off and come back to this with fresh eyes in the morning.

 

[Cartiac]

Sleep it off and come back to this with fresh eyes in the morning.

Sorry, let me state it in words you probably still won't understand. The champion rule is you are not a true champion until you defend the title, not any of that nonsense you made up.

 

[AmonTobin]

Isn't it farcical how Hendricks was given prime Costa (dangerous MW contender) while GSP was allowed to cherry pick a weak champion haha... And Johny had a win over Lombard at MW at the time.

This version of Costa Hendricks is fighting would destroy both GSP and Bisping together on this very same night.

You do know that Hendricks didn't fight Costa right after fighting GSP, right?
He fought Costa 9 fights later (3 wins and 6 losses later).
You know that Whittaker didn't fight Costa either until just this year?
This is a curious narrative you're weaving but please continue.

 

[HavokHarmon]

Sorry, let me state it in words you probably still won't understand. The champion rule is you are not a true champion until you defend the title, not any of that nonsense you made up.

Yeah I remember Hughes saying that, I think mainly as a jab at Penn after BJ beat him and then left.

And sorry to be the one to tell you. That’s been a thing for a long, long time. Seeing someone replace a champ who retires with the belt takes credibility away from the new champion for a while. Some guys get more flack for it then others. But here you don’t just have a guy who retired. He just left the company. But hey, you tried. That’s all anyone can ask.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

I don't know if I've ever proclaimed him the best, I'm just trying to keep people here honest. There are so many half-truths and outright lies floating around.

I don't even know what we are talking about anymore???
I have stated facts and you keep debating them.

Jon won a vacant title against another fighter who was never a champion and was clearly a perfect style match up for him. That isn't debatable since it is clearly evident with how the fight played out.

GSP beat the reigning champion who defeated the champion by a clear KO with no debate of being a bad stoppage. One is clearly more legitimate then the other.

 

[dipstickjimmy]

Gane is an elite kick boxer and the best striker at HW. Gane is 12-2 and has only lost to a prime Ngannou and Jones. Jones is not a litmus test of high TD or grappling, he is far superior to most of the HW's and fighters in the UFC on the ground. Jones regularly submits black belts and is an elite. No one at MW that Bisping has fought is comparable to a prime Ngannou, that Gane lost too for the belt. Gane has grappling and submission wins and has fought fighters with grappling and BJJ backgrounds on their record at HW.

Bisping is a well rounded serviceable fighter but he was never elite and never considered a top division fighter. He was a journeyman fighter till he struck gold with Rockhold. A Rockhold with a fading chin who did not take him seriously. He also has not beaten a top division elite fighter in their prime.

The comparison is ridiculous

Gane is a great kickboxer. He has never faced anyone with high level wresting aside from Jones. BJJ blackbelts are not necessarily wrestlers. Just like someone with great Boxing isn't necessarily a great kickboxer. How does Gane do against Blaydes or Aspinall or a prime Randy Couture or Cain or anyone with High School grade 9 gym class wrestling.

Also this line applies to Gane doesn't it?
"He also has not beaten a top division elite fighter in their prime."
Volkov would be the closest thing but who else? The only ELITE fighters he faced were Frank and Jon and he lost? Ghost of JDS that he beat with illegal strikes btw, Rosenstruik, Tuivasa, Spivac, Lewis, Tanner Bosser, Mayes, Pessoa are any of them elite and Prime? None of them aside from JDS were ever ELITE.

Bisping beat Luke who was ELITE by all opinions until the second he lost the UFC MW championship and instantly became horrible somehow.

Gane is vastly over rated and Bisping is criminally under rated IMO but we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

[moreorless87]

Well, GSP beat the actual champion. Call Bisping weak all you want, but he won the belt from the guy who won the belt from the guy that smashed Anderson. Same belt.

Jones won a vacated title over a guy who just lost to the other guy he had been ducking.

My feeling as well is that whilst its possible GSP may have viewed Bisping as easier than others this is not how the UFC viewed it. I think they booked this fight thinking Bisping was going to win, Dana loved him as a loyal company man and I suspect the GSP fight was viewed as a chance to give him a big drawing match he could win and send a disloyal fighter in GSP out on a loss.

Jones/Gane was 100% booked for Jones to win.

 

[RedDevilFan]

Gane is a great kickboxer. He has never faced anyone with high level wresting aside from Jones. BJJ blackbelts are not necessarily wrestlers. Just like someone with great Boxing isn't necessarily a great kickboxer. How does Gane do against Blaydes or Aspinall or a prime Randy Couture or Cain or anyone with High School grade 9 gym class wrestling.

Also this line applies to Gane doesn't it?
"He also has not beaten a top division elite fighter in their prime."
Volkov would be the closest thing but who else? The only ELITE fighters he faced were Frank and Jon and he lost? Ghost of JDS that he beat with illegal strikes btw, Rosenstruik, Tuivasa, Spivac, Lewis, Tanner Bosser, Mayes, Pessoa are any of them elite and Prime? None of them aside from JDS were ever ELITE.

Bisping beat Luke who was ELITE by all opinions until the second he lost the UFC MW championship and instantly became horrible somehow.

Gane is vastly over rated and Bisping is criminally under rated IMO but we are all entitled to our opinions.

Bsping is ranked where he needs to be, he is a serviceable fighter who was never a top division fighter, even when he held the belt. Bisping does have a better record than Gane, which is apparent but he was never on that level. I can give Rockhold but the comparison is a joke.

Gane has grappled against actual wrestlers. Spivac is a good wrestler and is the number one at HW for take down accuracy. Spivac is a fantastic wrestler and grappler. If you watch his fights, Gane has good defensive wrestling and good submission grappling. The difference with jones is that, Jones uses Judo trips and throws on his opponents in the clinch, which makes him difficult to counter.

If he was shit grappler he would have been taken to the woodshed against Spivac.

In terms of talent and skill they are not on the same level.