No way you can leave Jose Aldo completely off the list. Maybe 2009 he shares with GSP. Or 2013? Jones beat a middleweight in Chael and then won a coin toss (amazing fight, granted) vs Gus that year. Aldo winning a dominant decision over Frankie and then KO'ing KZ is probably a better year.
I won't argue with that. And I'll admit Erickson didn't do enough in 99 to be considered "Fighter of the Year." I was thinking more along the lines of the HW I'd probably bet on against any other fighter. Possibly he deserved in 97 when he had 4 wins (including Randleman) which were all finishes within 2 minutes. He also had a late 1996 "draw" against Bustamente where he rearranged Bustamente's face but didn't win because that required a finish according to tournament rules.
My point still stands that T.S. is very biased against UFC fighters, Americans and wrestlers in the 90s. How could you rank Funaki over Randy Couture in 97 when Randy finished Belfort (whom everyone thought was unbeatable) and Mo Smith (who had just beaten Mark Coleman) the same year?
1994 - Royce Gracie (anyone who says Ken is crazy. Ken lost twice that year in pancrase despite all his opponents there being way smaller than him).
1995 - Ken Shamrock - This was a hard year because nobody went undefeated. It's between Ken, Bas, Oleg, Severn, and Ruas. Ken and Bas fought the most. Bas only lost once (to Ken) and even though Ken had 2 draws that year, his level of competition was harder than Bas', so I give it to Ken by a very small margin.
1996 - Mark Coleman - this year it was between Bas and Coleman. All of Bas' wins were in pancrase though with the specialized rules, so Mark's wins get a slight edge for being in real MMA.
1997 - Randy Couture burst onto the scene with 4 wins, the latter 2 against "no known weaknesses" Vitor and then Maurice Smith, which won him the HW belt.
1998 - Frank Shamrock - defended his UFC LHW belt 3 times.
1999 - Igor Vovchanchyn - An argument could be made for Randleman, since most believe he won that fight against Bas. But it was still a poor performance where he didn't do any damage, just blankets him the whole time. While Igor destroyed 7 opponents including Mark Kerr, even though it was later ruled a no-contest in a robbery worse than what happened to Randleman.
After the first Chael fight in 2010, Anderson doesn't belong on 2011, 2012, and 2013. I'd give it to GSP for 2011 and 2012 with Jones taking over 2013. 2016 and 2017 would just be DJ. 2018 is where Khabib comes in. Adesanya should be tied with Volk 2021-2022.
1994 - Royce Gracie (anyone who says Ken is crazy. Ken lost twice that year in pancrase despite all his opponents there being way smaller than him).
1995 - Ken Shamrock - This was a hard year because nobody went undefeated. It's between Ken, Bas, Oleg, Severn, and Ruas. Ken and Bas fought the most. Bas only lost once (to Ken) and even though Ken had 2 draws that year, his level of competition was harder than Bas', so I give it to Ken by a very small margin.
1996 - Mark Coleman - this year it was between Bas and Coleman. All of Bas' wins were in pancrase though with the specialized rules, so Mark's wins get a slight edge for being in real MMA.
1997 - Randy Couture burst onto the scene with 4 wins, the latter 2 against "no known weaknesses" Vitor and then Maurice Smith, which won him the HW belt.
1998 - Frank Shamrock - defended his UFC LHW belt 3 times.
1999 - Igor Vovchanchyn - An argument could be made for Randleman, since most believe he won that fight against Bas. But it was still a poor performance where he didn't do any damage, just blankets him the whole time. While Igor destroyed 7 opponents including Mark Kerr, even though it was later ruled a no-contest in a robbery worse than what happened to Randleman.
Much better 90s list even if I have some disagreements. As for Ken in 1994, I think there's a good chance both the Suzuki and Funaki fights were fixed. There's some discussion in this thread.
I thought maybe we could use this thread to compile a list of the *known* worked Pancrase and PRIDE matches. I'd like to watch them all just like I watch pro wrestling matches.
forums.prowrestlingonly.com
I find it interesting that after 1993, no one in the UFC could submit Ken (including Royce in the rematch or Oleg Taktarov), but somehow these Japanese fighters could in matches that looked very different than UFC fights (much more exciting and less top control from Ken).
While Royce and Ken didn't fight in 94 (both pulled out of UFC 3), I think Ken could've done the same thing he did in 95 and neutralized Royce. And Royce really should've had a loss after he literally threw in the towel before the Harold Howard fight because Kimo completely exhausted him. 1994 is a hard year to call. Funaki also lost to Ken later that year and to Delucia. Bas had 3 losses that year. Royce beat a green Dan Severn in a long fight, but Severn looked like a completely different fighter after that. He had better sub defense and used GnP, knees on the ground, elbow and headbutts which he didn't do against Royce.
It's very interesting how over time that people are starting to rewrite history in mma. As far as I remember Silva was ranked #1 p4p over GSP and Fedor forever. But after he was losing after his leg break, slowly seen how GSP gets seen as the better fighter. Probably because his style is more modern and it's hard to see someone like Silva win the same ways in today's UFC.
Asked chat gpt:
Based on the ESPN “greatest fighter per year” survey conducted by Brett Okamoto, Marc Raimondi, and Jeff Wagenheim Wikipedia+9ESPN.com+9Reddit+9, with early years supplemented by Bleacher Report’s historical list Bleacher Report:
1993: Royce Gracie
1994: Royce Gracie
1995: Ken Shamrock
1996: Mark Coleman
1997: Mark Kerr
1998: Mark Kerr
1999: Bas Rutten
2000: Randy Couture
2001: Matt Hughes
2002: Matt Hughes
2003: Matt Hughes
2004: Fedor Emelianenko
2005: Mauricio “Shogun” Rua
2006: Chuck Liddell
2007: Anderson Silva
2008: Anderson Silva
2009: Fedor Emelianenko
From 2010 onward, ESPN’s continued annual selections include:
2010: Georges St‑Pierre (inferred, as GSP dominated that period; ESPN’s timeline covers his era)
2011–2012: Georges St‑Pierre
2013: Jon Jones
2014: Jon Jones
2015: José Aldo (took over after Jones was stripped mid‑2015)
2016: Demetrious Johnson (roughly after Aldo loss mid‑’15‑’16)
2017: Daniel Cormier (Jones suspended; DC held belt)
MW was a bit of a mess until 2007. Silva came out of nowhere even for people who knew who he was.
His ko of fryklund was awesome as was his win over Murray but that was sort of B league wins when they happened. Even Leben was seen as OK and Silva destroying him proved it (at the time)
He beat Franklin but Franklin was seen as 2nd to Hendo and Hendo was hot & cold at mw.
It was like 2007 or 8 when Silva was seen as godly. GSP cemented himself at around the same time. Fedor had been there for a min already
Much better 90s list even if I have some disagreements. As for Ken in 1994, I think there's a good chance both the Suzuki and Funaki fights were fixed. There's some discussion in this thread.
I thought maybe we could use this thread to compile a list of the *known* worked Pancrase and PRIDE matches. I'd like to watch them all just like I watch pro wrestling matches.
forums.prowrestlingonly.com
I find it interesting that after 1993, no one in the UFC could submit Ken (including Royce in the rematch or Oleg Taktarov), but somehow these Japanese fighters could in matches that looked very different than UFC fights (much more exciting and less top control from Ken).
While Royce and Ken didn't fight in 94 (both pulled out of UFC 3), I think Ken could've done the same thing he did in 95 and neutralized Royce. And Royce really should've had a loss after he literally threw in the towel before the Harold Howard fight because Kimo completely exhausted him. 1994 is a hard year to call. Funaki also lost to Ken later that year and to Delucia. Bas had 3 losses that year. Royce beat a green Dan Severn in a long fight, but Severn looked like a completely different fighter after that. He had better sub defense and used GnP, knees on the ground, elbow and headbutts which he didn't do against Royce.
Yeah that's the hard thing with pancrase. Hard to know which fights were fixed. Can we dismiss Ken's losses as works but then count all his victories as legit?
And even if his losses were fixed, I think that should still count against him. I mean you kinda know that you're giving up certain things by agreeing to lose. Titles, prestige, win streaks, and being nominated as fighter of the year 30 years in the future lol.
MW was a bit of a mess until 2007. Silva came out of nowhere even for people who knew who he was.
His ko of fryklund was awesome as was his win over Murray but that was sort of B league wins when they happened. Even Leben was seen as OK and Silva destroying him proved it (at the time)
He beat Franklin but Franklin was seen as 2nd to Hendo and Hendo was hot & cold at mw.
It was like 2007 or 8 when Silva was seen as godly. GSP cemented himself at around the same time. Fedor had been there for a min already
After the first Chael fight in 2010, Anderson doesn't belong on 2011, 2012, and 2013. I'd give it to GSP for 2011 and 2012 with Jones taking over 2013. 2016 and 2017 would just be DJ. 2018 is where Khabib comes in. Adesanya should be tied with Volk 2021-2022.
No way you can leave Jose Aldo completely off the list. Maybe 2009 he shares with GSP. Or 2013? Jones beat a middleweight in Chael and then won a coin toss (amazing fight, granted) vs Gus that year. Aldo winning a dominant decision over Frankie and then KO'ing KZ is probably a better year.
I've already explained this. Erickson went back to wrestling for 2 years in 97-99. One problem was that no one wanted to fight him, including other wrestlers. He was also in his mid-30s and on the verge of getting too old, which happened in the 2000s. But either he or Kerr/Coleman could've easily taken down Bas and either held him down for a decision or maybe pounded him out. Rutten's biggest weakness was wrestlers. He couldn't stop Randleman (much smaller than Tom) from taking him down, and he also lost twice to Ken Shamrock.
At openweight Eriksson definitely had a case but p4p, which is what the thread is about, there were better fighters in the mid-late 90s, specially from Brazil.
Actually, Bustamante taking it to a decision 50lbs lighter if anything indictes he was more skilled
Yeah that's the hard thing with pancrase. Hard to know which fights were fixed. Can we dismiss Ken's losses as works but then count all his victories as legit?
And even if his losses were fixed, I think that should still count against him. I mean you kinda know that you're giving up certain things by agreeing to lose. Titles, prestige, win streaks, and being nominated as fighter of the year 30 years in the future lol.
True, but IIRC the only win by Ken that looked fishy was Matt Hume. And I'm confident Ken (with a nice size advantage) could beat Hume under Pancrase or early UFC rules in a legit shoot. Hume looked solid in his last few fights, but he was going against guys his size (Paulsen and Militech).
What? Almost every fighter eventually loses, but alluding that Ilia is some type of hype train after knocking out Volk, Max, and Charles is so disrespectful to a group of bonafide legends of the sport.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
