Opinion Who was a better president Donald Trump or George W Bush?

[K1levelgrappler]

lmao this is a banger and somehow I’ve never seen it until just now

 

[So Fresh]

lmao this is a banger and somehow I’ve never seen it until just now

 

[Fugazy]

Dude, there’s a pretty wide gap between wearing a mask in a grocery store during a pandemic, and holding people (and citizens) without habeus corpus, spiriting them off to secret fucking torture prisons, and illegally wiretapping Americans. Good lord.

Those are all things Bush did. Bush had American citizens in Guantanamo.

 

[BFoe]

Those are all things Bush did. Bush had American citizens in Guantanamo.

I know. I was responding to a poster who said liberals who opposed the Patriot Act “switched stances” during COVID.

 

[Fugazy]

No, I think @heloder is making a valid point. Obviously invading fucking Iraq for no reason and causing God-knows-how-many wounded and killed is not to be taken lightly. Ditto with his “War on Terror” bullshit pretext to suspend habeus corpus and torture people.
Is that worse than purposefully trying to undermine free and fair democratic elections, fostering a violent uprising of people who wanted hang the VP and to forcefully subvert that election? Ehhhhhh I’m not so sure that it is worse. Lots of presidents have invaded places, bombed nations, what have you. Only one has ever tried to subvert the peaceful transfer of power and that’s Trump.

Right now, there are 17 different people in 17 different states running for Sec of State, who are aligned with the “Stop the Steal” movement. What Trump did has had a major ripple effect in which many of the democratic institutions which fortunately prevented his attempted coup are being attacked, subverted, and weakened.
It’s hard to have a worse legacy as president than that. I can think of maybe 2 presidents—3 tops—that I’d rank lower than Trump.

The Patriot Act alone.

I mean, seriously.

 

[SakurabasEar]

Tough call. Overall Trump was worse in that he was willing to war the office of the presidency for personal gain in the way no other modern president has and he was incredibly hostile to political norms that restrained the president. So in a way he moved us an inch or two towards a tyrannical government even if we still remain miles away from actually having one.

That said, Bush's single decision to invade Iraq arguably outweighs all of that when you look at the global fallout of that decision. Iraq obviously never really recovered and it destabilized the region so badly that the danger spread beyond the Near East. Indirectly led to the migrant crisis which weakened our most critical allies in Europe which then led to the strengthening of the far right over there. Aside from the mass death and violence there were just so many negative downstream effects from that one invasion that its arguably the single worst policy decision, foreign and domestic, of the 21st century by any leader of a major Western democracy.

So for America specifically I'd say Trump since he, if only very slightly, eroded our democratic norms and principles and since America was somewhat insulated from worst of the effects of the Iraq war. But for the world its clearly Bush by far and I expect most posters outside of America will almost unanimously agree on that. Bush is like a driver who drives on the sidewalk, the world around him is in danger but the passengers inside will probably be fine.

Well so did Trump, in fact his signature 2018 bill specifically rolled back financial regulations that were put in place after the 2008 GFC to prevent another such crash. So idk that you should hold that only against Bush and not Trump, if anything Trump deregulated the financial history with the benefit of hindsight in regards to the GFC so arguably an even worse move.

Fair play, for what its worth I was referring to cheney's energy act in 05' and perhaps the initial tax breaks in his first term. In retrospect I should have listed other things such as the department of homeland security or the patriot act he signed into law. Which imo you still have to weigh Bush's actual knowledge and involvement of the details, given how much of a goof he was. I know many people cite the tortures as another knock, but to my knowledge Bush wasn't even aware of this until 07' or such and apparently acted to stop it. I should probably read up on the latter.

 

[BFoe]

The Patriot Act alone.

I mean, seriously.

I’m with you on that. I still believe it’s the single worst piece of legislation passed in my lifetime. The Bush years were fucking awful, truly dark times. He fucked shit up militarily, economically, and absolutely trampled civil rights.

With Trump, I truly believe that what he tried to do with the 2020 election—starting way back to his first impeachment up to the present day—is a danger to the country thay can’t be understated. It’s very literally DEFCON 5 danger level to our system of government.

Additionally, we had utterly unqualified clowns like Pruitt (with his dozen ethics investigations), Zinke carving up national monuments and making sweetheart deals that fucked US citizens in Puerto Rico, dumbfucks like DeVos and Carson, Jared Kushner’s incompetent ass in charge of Mideast Peace, Ivanka sitting in at the G20 (fucking lol), a literal white nationalist writing immigration policy….the list goes on.

James Buchanan and Andrew Johnson are the two worst presidents ever, due to their actions (and inactions) leading up to the Civil War and just after it. Some people are sounding the warning of another impending Civil War. Depending on where our nation is in ten years, Trump’s presidency might be viewed as even more destructive to the nation that I view it already.

 

[BFoe]

Fair play, for what its worth I was referring to cheney's energy act in 05' and perhaps the initial tax breaks in his first term. In retrospect I should have listed other things such as the department of homeland security or the patriot act he signed into law. Which imo you still have to weigh Bush's actual knowledge and involvement of the details, given how much of a goof he was. I know many people cite the tortures as another knock, but to my knowledge Bush wasn't even aware of this until 07' or such and apparently acted to stop it. I should probably read up on the latter.

Cheney claims Bush knew but who knows how much to trust Cheney. That dude is a cold-blooded black hearted evil motherfucker. Here’s an article from Human Rights Watch also making the case that Bush knew.

 

[Codpiece]

Disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan
Mismanagement of southern border
Energy policy
Leadership team selected based on demographics, not ability
Lack of delivery on election promises (not that I think all the promises were great, but he really hasn’t had much success)

I will give him credit for not taking hasty action on the Russia/Ukraine situation. I’m certain there has been pressure to increase involvement.

Seems to me his administration either lurches from crisis to crisis or spins its wheels on most major issues, whilst absolutely failing to unify anybody or project an image of strength. A strong US is, I believe, a potentially great good in the world. Right now it appears weaker than I can remember.

I disagree regarding Obama...a wholly unqualified candidate who ascended on the back of well wishes. The guy was a smooth talker but accomplished little of note. Disagree also regarding Trump many of his policies are still with us today especially his ridiculous spending and tax cuts which are still impacting today.

You argued against points I never made. I said Obama appeared respectable. Bush Jr, Trump and Biden have all be roundly mocked for their gaffes. I certainly never said I thought Trump was perfect either, though I do think he was somewhat better than his detractors claim.

 

[Protectandserve]

I hate to say it but Trump.

Bush got us into Iraq and Afghanistan (kinda force into that one).

The fact that the 2 longest wars in modern americna history were under W is a huge loss for him.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I hate to say it but Trump.

Bush got us into Iraq and Afghanistan (kinda force into that one).

The fact that the 2 longest wars in modern americna history were under W is a huge loss for him.

I think Afghanistan was kind of justified if useless in hindsight. Iraq made no sense, whatsoever.

 

[Fergelmince]

I think Afghanistan was kind of justified if useless in hindsight. Iraq made no sense, whatsoever.

Justified???

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Justified???

The idea was that AQ did 9/11 and the mastermind and leader of AQ was hiding in Afghanistan. It's pretty likely that was true, however OBL slipped away to Pakistan in the beginning so they should've followed him there instead of keeping the war going on for 20 more years.

 

[Fergelmince]

The idea was that AQ did 9/11 and the mastermind and leader of AQ was hiding in Afghanistan. It's pretty likely that was true, however OBL slipped away to Pakistan in the beginning so they should've followed him there instead of keeping the war going on for 20 more years.

Now that we have the CIA and FBI released documents, and the findings of important Saudi diplomats aiding 911 actors in the plot. 15 of the 19 hijackers were of Saudi origin. Bin Laden's father was "Yemeni Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden, a billionaire construction magnate with close ties to the Saudi royal family." It is way more clear SA was the country to invade, IF we were going to invade a country. Afghanstan was way way low on the totem pole compared to SA.

 

[SummerStriker]

Bush did 9/11 to cover up his Enron scandal while ushering in the new age of surveillance-nanny state and eternal war. He then extended his presidency for a total of four terms through Obama. Trump did some fucked up shit, and a lot of it, but you could multiply every sin he committed by 100 and it wouldn't come close to Bush.

 

[My name is]

I've been a tax paying adult starting with george w. Speaking for myself and people around me life was best under Trump. Money was flowing military felt strong everything was just good. Things were good with Obama. Bush sucked and this biden thing is just garbage

 

[salamander]

The one who didn't open up the gates of hell in the ME.

 

[GhostZ06]

The idea was that AQ did 9/11 and the mastermind and leader of AQ was hiding in Afghanistan. It's pretty likely that was true, however OBL slipped away to Pakistan in the beginning so they should've followed him there instead of keeping the war going on for 20 more years.

we should have invaded Pakistan and Saudi Arabia

 

[LMP]

Bush did invade Afghanistan and Iraq. Trump also bombed the fuck out of the ME. So they both get their War Crimes under their belt with Bush most likely having a much higher death under his belt. Trump had a hell of run for his one term though. Trump loved dropping bombs and hiding the death counts. Obama also got a big body count. Atvleast he was much more transparent about it, but he isnt in this topic. So ill leave him out of the rest of it.

Both of them had good economies heading into office. Bush led the crash. Im sure we could argue that some of it wasnt his fault directly, but he gets to keep most of the blame. I cant blame Covid all on Trump, any president would have had issues. Trumps economy definitely limped out.

Politically they both jad some major fuck ups. Im calling it a tie here.

Socially Bush didnt do near as much harm as Trump. Trump wins this one hands down. Hell he tired to over turn the election long after he knew he had lost.

Freedom wise Bush signed the patriot act which is damning as hell.

So it depends on if you hold Bush starting a war and the Patriot Actor or Trump trying to hold on to office more damning imo. Fuck em both, two of the worst Presidents we could have had.

 

[Hit-N-Run]

Do you think Obama should be at the end of a rope for the multiple murders of US citizens via drones, including minors?

I was waiting for the Obama comparison. Sorry but nice what-about/diversion attempt. This is not even close to being what Bush and Trump have (and in Trump’s case) still trying to do.