Who are these mythical "street fighters" who can supposedly defeat all martial arts?

[sauron0379]

I think the point being missed here is when someone says "that wouldn't work in the street", it is a half truth. Every move you learn in BJJ WILL work in the street unless it is heavily dependent on the Gi. The real question is the high risk of trying to pull that move and whether or not it exposes you to strikes. With the influx of "modern/sport BJJ", alot of guards were developed that rely on grips. As you establish those grips, you leave yourself exposed, pure and simple. I think most sport BJJ guys are able to understand that. Ryan Hall even commented on this in his interview about his fight with the drunk. He would never use sport BJJ in a street fight.

To the OP's remark about cops handling these "street legends", there is an official Gracie school in my town, and guess what a big part of there student base is.. DING DING DING.. Cops, Fireman, Security personell

But its a free country and you are free to perform DLR in a street fight. But even an untrained person will be able to hit you. I thought for a while the knee shield half guard was street applicable, until I had someone stretch there arm out and easily reach my face. For me, the best guard for a street fight is closed guard because both hands are free to defend.

As far as warfare, the Gracie's do train branches of our military and several law enforcement agencies. In fact, besides Krav Maga, the GJJ curriculum is the only one ive seen to date that deals with disarming and armed person. But in all reality, the best thing to do is not be a hero and just run if you are not armed yourself

 

[nefti]

It is hard to punch someone while in their de la Riga guard unless you know how to grapple

 

[JohnSouth]

I suppose with all this bullshit you just spouted... You've got tons of historical evidence to back up everything you said?

"Most of them only work on little Asian guys who agree to fight that way"

You sound like a fucking racist. What way are we talking here? They fought and killed each other by the most effective means they had... Just like western army's. They used spears, swords, guns and anything else they could. Hand to hand combat was indeed very common on historical battlefields. There is a reason why wrestling with and without a weapon is so commonly taught historically in western and Asian countries. When you're fighting in somebody's face with a pole arm or a sword.... Fighting can turn quite savage and force a soldier to have to lay hands on the enemy. Both in japanese culture as well basically every western martial tradition I've seen teaches lots of grappling for the purpose of laying hands on another guy wearing armor and then throwing him down and sticking a knife or short sword into the weak points of his armor.

He'll... Hand to hand combat was quite common even in world war 1 ...

Your condescending attitude about how Asian Martial arts never worked and that they knew nothing about how to train soldiers reeks of racism to me.

It only works on other Asians? I suppose jiu-jitsu only works on other tiny weak little Asians who too stupid to fight like westerners huh?

Liberals with their racist bs...Try growing up as the only white guy around, you'll understand what racism means. You ever take a beating for the color of your skin? Didn't think so.

I like Asian people generally. Bruce Lee said that, that's why he ditched wing chun and other TMA.

Jiu-jitsu doesn't work so good when the other guy is stronger, bigger and more athletic than you. You better be something else or you are getting smashed.

Historical evidence, there is none one way or the other. nah use your power of observation, real combat (war) is a crap shoot.

 

[JohnSouth]

The ARMY has recently embraced martial arts when I was in during the mid 90's all we got was a hip toss for half a day in basic and that was it. now that I am a LEO i'll tell you that we come in all shapes and sizes, so if you get the cop who's morbidly obese then with out his tools the average joe,street fighter, might take him. but there's the cops who do BJJ four times a week, in addition to weightlifting, and were HS wrestlers you'd prob get beaten down if you became non compliant to verbal commands. I guess if you wanted to test your kung fu esp against an leo it would def be a gamble lol

No doubt but he would shoot you in the face without warning, not try to wrestle you. That's why it's kind of stupid, good exercise though.

I've seen some cops run in Baltimore and it was pretty funny.

I saw this cop chasing a kid who stole a ladies purse. I really wanted to go catch him, I also had a chance to tackle him when he went by me but I would have been arrested for my trouble.

I had the kid dead to rights but I let him go. He got away. If the cop wasn't around I would have taught the kid a lesson and gave the lady her purse.

There's just too much video and news out there for the myth of supercop to survive.

Like firing 70 shots into an SUV in a residential area and the driver survives with minor injuries. Meanwhile bullets hit everywhere.

In a shootout in New York the cops missed the perp and hit 3 bystanders with richochets.

 

[FinBJJ]

It's insane. I don't understand why fighting is one of the few areas where people are willing to so easily dismiss years of specialized training.

Because they feel insecure that you could beat them up.

 

[JohnSouth]

I don't want to get into an argument about what a street fight is.

What you are saying about about the asp baton is what my current teacher says... he has trained a little bit of everything but mostly the Japanese stuff.

I actually read a book written by prisoners on the subject of knife fighting, and it is indeed different than what was taught from my instructor or from what i have seen of kali. The grip was the same though.

I get the sense that in knive vs knive both people get hurt real bad, especially if both have some experience. It is hard to train because of that

The prison style attack is real hard to stop by traditional methods, the guy is not going to stand in front of you and trade techniques.

He's gonna grab onto you with the front arm and keep the knife away and try to take your back stabbing over and over.

You need a weapon with knockout power or maybe you cut him and he keeps stabbing anyway.

Paul Vunak cannot disarm a knife under realistic conditions (his admission) after 30 years of practice so I wouldn't worry about empty hand disarms either.

 

[MMA made EASY]

Plenty of instructors introduce weapons or multiple opponents into grappling classes.

Something as simple as a butterknife with some tape over any sharp edges is fine for training.

Kali is pretty fun, too.

 

[georgejjr]

I think people mistake unarmed combat is unreliable on the street, with BJJ doesnt works.

Its not just BJJ all trained individuals from all trained martial arts are vulnerable to violence on the street, weapons, ganging up, sucker blows etc etc. I could bring a non-stop stream of examples but Sherdog doesnt allows them.

Blagoi Ivanov for example, Maiquel Falcao is another.

Yup. Unarmed combat is inferior to using weapons. Humans figured that out a hundred thousand years ago, when they noticed tying a rock to a stick or sharpening the end of a long branch made it possible to kill tigers, bears, and mammoths that would easily kill them unarmed.

You can add Shogun as another, recent example of someone who was ganged up on (and was smart enough not to test unarmed styles against rifles).

 

[JohnSouth]

I think people mistake unarmed combat is unreliable on the street, with BJJ doesnt works.

Its not just BJJ all trained individuals from all trained martial arts are vulnerable to violence on the street, weapons, ganging up, sucker blows etc etc. I could bring a non-stop stream of examples but Sherdog doesnt allows them.

Blagoi Ivanov for example, Maiquel Falcao is another.

It depends how you use it, wrestling/judo/MT would be better. It's more about speed than anything else, you need to win fast and move to the next guy or run..

There are different kinds of fighting and BJJ is good for 1 on 1 or help you stay on your feet. When you think about it very little BJJ teaches applies to a street fight. It's more about the wrestling, sprawling, conditioning and striking you may learn in the same gym.

With the weapon it's more about seeing threat early and either attack before weapon can come out or run quickly.

Most people don't do anything, they argue, guy tries dumbly to de-escalate, other guy pulls weapon, he's unarmed...done.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

The prison style attack is real hard to stop by traditional methods, the guy is not going to stand in front of you and trade techniques.

He's gonna grab onto you with the front arm and keep the knife away and try to take your back stabbing over and over.

You need a weapon with knockout power or maybe you cut him and he keeps stabbing anyway.

Paul Vunak cannot disarm a knife under realistic conditions (his admission) after 30 years of practice so I wouldn't worry about empty hand disarms either.

I agree. Someone who has been to prison will kill you with a knife so you can't disarm them. An armed determined opponent is gonna be hard to stop.

Of course not everyone is that determined so do you think some of the kali attacks/ disarms might work on them?

I have read newspaper reports of kids who bring knives to school tackled and disarmed before they kill anyone. But these are high school kids not hardened criminals.

Another thing ive been thinking about recently is how to tell if someone is going hurt me or not. I have been in arguments with drink people that I was able to walk away from with out fighting. I think it is best to ignore people or try to talk them down. Of course I realize some people want to hurt others so that won't always work.

 

[JohnSouth]

Plenty of instructors introduce weapons or multiple opponents into grappling classes.

Something as simple as a butterknife with some tape over any sharp edges is fine for training.

Kali is pretty fun, too.

Doesn't work though, just because it is in a class doesn't mean it will work. I thought it was fun too but after a while I realized it was unrealistic.

The average Kali student cannot do any of it, the assitant instructors I thought "nah". My instructor who had 14 years exp was the only person I thought, yeah his stuff works but then again he spars.

If you are grappling and someone reaches into the pocket for a karambit or knife you are done.

Lots of guys like to pull a knife when they realize they are outmatched, you won't see it until it is sticking out of you.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

No doubt but he would shoot you in the face without warning, not try to wrestle you. That's why it's kind of stupid, good exercise though.

I've seen some cops run in Baltimore and it was pretty funny.

I saw this cop chasing a kid who stole a ladies purse. I really wanted to go catch him, I also had a chance to tackle him when he went by me but I would have been arrested for my trouble.

I had the kid dead to rights but I let him go. He got away. If the cop wasn't around I would have taught the kid a lesson and gave the lady her purse.

There's just too much video and news out there for the myth of supercop to survive.

Like firing 70 shots into an SUV in a residential area and the driver survives with minor injuries. Meanwhile bullets hit everywhere.

In a shootout in New York the cops missed the perp and hit 3 bystanders with richochets.

Once again it depends on the cop when I was an infantryman in the army the guys from the south who grew up hunting and fishing seemed to be more"at home" when we went on FTX, while guys like me who was momma's fat little biscuit eater from a comfy middle class existence had a lot to learn about field craft and noise and light discipline. the closet I came to hunting was watching Michael Dudikoff in "River of death".

I said that just to reiterate my stance on everybody comes from different backgrounds. we have guys who have criminal justice degrees, with no military, Martial arts, or tactical training other than what they received at the academy. and we have a guy that was part of a USMC "Fast team" who is a pretty good amateur MMA fighter. Many cops my self included shoot regularly and though I have not had to shoot anyone during my 10 years, I'm sure if the occasion arises I'd hit what I was aiming at not because I'm the ultimate badass just because I've dedicated hours of my own off time to honing "instinctual shooting" as well as time on the mat. many many Cops engage in "warrior hobbies"

 

[JohnSouth]

I agree. Someone who has been to prison will kill you with a knife so you can't disarm them. An armed determined opponent is gonna be hard to stop.

Of course not everyone is that determined so do you think some of the kali attacks/ disarms might work on them?

I have read newspaper reports of kids who bring knives to school tackled and disarmed before they kill anyone. But these are high school kids not hardened criminals.

Another thing ive been thinking about recently is how to tell if someone is going hurt me or not. I have been in arguments with drink people that I was able to walk away from with out fighting. I think it is best to ignore people or try to talk them down. Of course I realize some people want to hurt others so that won't always work.

The disarms and other things work better by surprise, everything works better by surprise.

You want to get the guy before he is in a murderous rage. A lot of that is poker face, if there is going to be violence I will do it first.

It is a matter of practice too. If you can find a place that trains 5-6x a week or something that may be very good.

Why people think BJJ needs 6 days a week to become great but Kali only needs 2 hours a week is beyond me.

That is why I quit, I saw the people who were there for 3 years weren't any good. I caught up to most of them in 6 months from practicing at home every day but still I thought "there are better things I can be doing".

I want to keep practicing in my spare time though.

 

[JohnSouth]

Once again it depends on the cop when I was an infantryman in the army the guys from the south who grew up hunting and fishing seemed to be more"at home" when we went on FTX, while guys like me who was momma's fat little biscuit eater from a comfy middle class existence had a lot to learn about field craft and noise and light discipline. the closet I came to hunting was watching Michael Dudikoff in "River of death".

I said that just to reiterate my stance on everybody comes from different backgrounds. we have guys who have criminal justice degrees, with no military, Martial arts, or tactical training other than what they received at the academy. and we have a guy that was part of a USMC "Fast team" who is a pretty good amateur MMA fighter. Many cops my self included shoot regularly and though I have not had to shoot anyone during my 10 years, I'm sure if the occasion arises I'd hit what I was aiming at not because I'm the ultimate badass just because I've dedicated hours of my own off time to honing "instinctual shooting" as well as time on the mat. many many Cops engage in "warrior hobbies"

I'm sure that some cops are very tough, I believe you are tough. The average cop? I haven't seen it but I won't argue with you.

Even so the badge and the radio are the toughest things about any cop. Take that away and you get arrested instead of making the arrest.

Let's face it, any one man is nothing. Someone can kill a cop easy but his life is not worth shit after that.

Many cop killers are 13 years old kids and the guy never sees it coming.

 

[Deltafarce]

Once again it depends on the cop when I was an infantryman in the army the guys from the south who grew up hunting and fishing seemed to be more"at home" when we went on FTX, while guys like me who was momma's fat little biscuit eater from a comfy middle class existence had a lot to learn about field craft and noise and light discipline. the closet I came to hunting was watching Michael Dudikoff in "River of death".

I said that just to reiterate my stance on everybody comes from different backgrounds. we have guys who have criminal justice degrees, with no military, Martial arts, or tactical training other than what they received at the academy. and we have a guy that was part of a USMC "Fast team" who is a pretty good amateur MMA fighter. Many cops my self included shoot regularly and though I have not had to shoot anyone during my 10 years, I'm sure if the occasion arises I'd hit what I was aiming at not because I'm the ultimate badass just because I've dedicated hours of my own off time to honing "instinctual shooting" as well as time on the mat. many many Cops engage in "warrior hobbies"

John south that's a pretty convenient excuse to not catch the bad guy. Instead of talking crap about the cop actually catching the crook why don't you actually do something than posting about it on a message board

 

[JohnSouth]

John south that's a pretty convenient excuse to not catch the bad guy. Instead of talking crap about the cop actually catching the crook why don't you actually do something than posting about it on a message board

I don't want the cop to arrest me or get sued for tackling an african american juvenile when I am a white man.

The cop was black also and he did not catch anything but a case of asthma. The kid left him in the dust and the lady lost her purse.

If you would try that in front of the black cop I will double face palm.

That kid be living in your house.

 

[DCSpartan]

a knife is great equalizer.

So is having your buddy cheap shot the guy from behind.

eye gouges, head butts, knee to the groins - you dont have to spar 6 days a week to get those moves down.

Street fights can be very damaging very fast on both ends. Which isnt the way most martial artists train or spar.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

I'm sure that some cops are very tough, I believe you are tough. The average cop? I haven't seen it but I won't argue with you.

Even so the badge and the radio are the toughest things about any cop. Take that away and you get arrested instead of making the arrest.

Let's face it, any one man is nothing. Someone can kill a cop easy but his life is not worth shit after that.

Many cop killers are 13 years old kids and the guy never sees it coming.

You just don't like Cops. and that's your right, but ask yourself would you want to wake up tomorrow and every cop in this country was on strike and refused to report for duty? think Katrina X 1,000. the attitude in your posts reminds me of taunts I've heard when a perp screams how he'd kick my ass if I didn't have on a gun and badge and how cops were bullied pusses in elementary school that want power over people. then the same guy is quiet as a mouse when we get him back to a cell and one of us come in with no gun and no badge and then he's respectful "yes sir, "no sir" or not talking shit anymore not once has a perp actually accepted the challenge they issued lol!

 

[JohnSouth]

You just don't like Cops. and that's your right, but ask yourself would you want to wake up tomorrow and every cop in this country was on strike and refused to report for duty? think Katrina X 1,000. the attitude in your posts reminds me of taunts I've heard when a perp screams how he'd kick my ass if I didn't have on a gun and badge and how cops were bullied pusses in elementary school that want power over people. then the same guy is quiet as a mouse when we get him back to a cell and one of us come in with no gun and no badge and then he's respectful "yes sir, "no sir" or not talking shit anymore not once has a perp actually accepted the challenge they issued lol!

I'd be fine, I'd get a bunch of guys and go clean up the neighborhood without worrying about you. Sorry but that's the truth.

And of course, he didn't fight you because he has no chance. Like you'd just let him go if he beat you in sparring.

I am very respectful also, that is part of the game, stroke his ego, dress nice and get off with a warning. That is also why I am dangerous, nobody expects me to be what I am.

I have nothing in particular against you but I think you are only there to protect the rights of vermin.

If you guys would take a week off I'd clean house.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

The disarms and other things work better by surprise, everything works better by surprise.

You want to get the guy before he is in a murderous rage. A lot of that is poker face, if there is going to be violence I will do it first.
.

What do you mean by this? Certainly I want to get the enemy before he gets me but at the same time I don't want to go beating people up because they looked at me funny or started yelling at me.

Or maybe you johnsouth do beat people up when they yell at you?