Who’s the 2nd greatest MW ever?

[pankrat]

I know most people probably won't agree with this, but thinking back, I have a hard time buying Franklin as the #2 guy because he was just so damn big. He was able to make the weight, but the guy was a fuckin light heavy amongst actual middleweights. Now there are a lot of guys who can comfortably move up from 185 to 205, but I think he had a size advantage over almost everyone when he was champ and a bit afterwards.
I also don't believe he'd beat Hendo with both firing on all cylinders.
.

Franklin #2, even out of USA alone, pretty silly. Worldwide is retarded.

The best opponent he beat at 185lbs was probably Okami, in a flipcoin decission and with 10+ lbs weigh advantage in the cage.

I guess UFC did a good work at building up the American poster back in the day when beating 42 years old Ken Shamrock coming from retirement got you a tittle shot (lol)

Much respect for Rich btw, solid fighter and great guy

 

[kellier]

When was Randy on trt?

Best I can do source wise. I can remember the controversy though.

https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/forums/What-if/Couture-On-DRUGS:1141464

Randy hung em up before TRT exemptions became controversial but was reported to have undergone hormone replacement therapy prior to his last HW run. This is back 2007/08. This was used as an explanation to rumours he was on HGH.

He later softened the story to he used natural supplements to increase his testosterone with the help of a doctor when TRT came into focus. He'd retired at this point and there was no way of confirming either way. Just google Couture and testosterone

Circumstantially, he was mid 40s winning titles by out grinding younger men with gruelling clinch work and was a prominent member of Team Quest which had an inordinate number of TUEs when TRT was in the open (Sonnen, Henderson, Warren)

 

[Tuf_guy]

The best opponent he beat at 185lbs was probably Okami, in a flipcoin decission and with 10+ lbs weigh advantage in the cage.

Yeah, he probably lost most of his biggest legacy defining fights - and Okami was huge! Having 10lbs on him on fight night says something about how big Fra klin was.

 

[Joker Jiujitsu]

Name some of those quality MW wins.

For Mousasi? I would say Machida, Shlemenko, Carvalho, Philippou, Weidman, Jacare, Lombard, and Munoz. Uriah Hall was a solid win considering the fluke in their first fight. Plus he beat Dan Henderson.

 

[El General]

Hendo/Franklin.

Seemed like the Chris was in his way to top5 before this bunch of loses.
Def a lot of honorable mentions. Rockhold and Bisping.

 

[pankrat]

Yeah, he probably lost most of his biggest legacy defining fights - and Okami was huge! Having 10lbs on him on fight night says something about how big Fra klin was.

Yeah Okami wasnt that big for a MW though, tall but lanky. Had fought Shields the year before - and got robbed
Franklin was huge indeed for 185. His record there is 8-3. I guess his fights with Wand count as MW wins. Still I would say Okami was better than that version of Wand.

 

[pankrat]

Hendo/Franklin.

Seemed like the Chris was in his way to top5 before this bunch of loses.
Def a lot of honorable mentions. Rockhold and Bisping.

Who are best Franklin wins at MW? No way is above Weidman, or Rockhold, Romero, Jacare, Whittaker, Mousasi. Even Bisping at this point.

 

[Kono dio da!]

Anderson Silva is the consensus greatest middleweight of all time and some argue he IS the greatest mixed martial artist ever but i was just wondering who is considered the second best mw? Middleweight is historically really stacked and has some great names there.


I want to say either Mousasi or Luke Rockhold have a great claim at being the right behind Andy as the MW goat if that makes sense.


What does sherdog think?

Mousasi isn't the second greatest. He always lost when he fought the top guys.

 

[El General]

Who are best Franklin wins at MW? No way is above Weidman, or Rockhold, Romero, Jacare, Whittaker, Mousasi. Even Bisping at this point.

Minus Anderson, he won a lot and was competitive in every loss. No denying, his competition was not the era of guys you named. Division is better now, I think prime Rich hangs with these dudes honestly.

 

[pankrat]

Minus Anderson, he won a lot and was competitive in every loss. No denying, his competition was not the era of guys you named. Division is better now, I think prime Rich hangs with these dudes honestly.

Maybe, although I don't favour him. The thing is they are not only better imo, they've beat more top ranked MWs from their respective era.

I place Franklin arguably top10 MW all time, top20 for sure

 

[ferrisjso]

Anderson Silva is the consensus greatest middleweight of all time and some argue he IS the greatest mixed martial artist ever but i was just wondering who is considered the second best mw? Middleweight is historically really stacked and has some great names there.


I want to say either Mousasi or Luke Rockhold have a great claim at being the right behind Andy as the MW goat if that makes sense.


What does sherdog think?

I don't think AS's consensus status is accurate has more to do with their being no one who's defended the belt nearly as long. Pretty much every champ/challenger since AS could have beaten him and quite a few did. There's lots of people who would beat AS, the closest anyone comes in terms of a total resume though is Weidman(who would be my pick) and he's got 3 defenses(a very good 3 defenses but 3 nontheless).

But then there's a lot of people now who could beat Weidman and most of them never even defended the belt or even won it. For example I think Yoel is the best MW in terms of ability but there's no belt or title defenses there and feels weird to call someone who's never won a title the GOAT.

 

[Nelly]

For Mousasi? I would say Machida, Shlemenko, Carvalho, Philippou, Weidman, Jacare, Lombard, and Munoz. Uriah Hall was a solid win considering the fluke in their first fight. Plus he beat Dan Henderson.

And how many of those guys were actually the best version of themselves when they fought? He beat an old Machida and green Jacare and lost to them in the UFC. Weidman, Munoz, Philippou, and Hendo were 0-2, 1-2, 1-2, and 1-4 before Gegard beat them. Lombard was pre Bellator champ and Shlemenko was post Bellator champ. Really his best win is probably Carvalho and even then that's not a big accomplishment to be the 2nd greatest MW. And losing to Hall is worse for your legacy than actually beating him.

 

[ferrisjso]

Dan Henderson and Rich Franklin are 2a and 2b

For the people that say Weidman, he was KOd 5 times in 6 fights during his prime

Weidman was undefeated before that though with 2 wins over AS, Machida and Belfort(the three greatest Brazilian martial artists of all time IMO). The 5 of 6 guys who beat him were mostly just fucking monsters(Reyes just won 2 rounds against Jones), he beat Gastelum who almost beat Izzy, it's not like he wasn't competitive.

No proof Weidman really declined, saying he lost 5 of 6 without context makes it seem like he's washed when the truth is he'd honestly have a pretty good shot against Izzy if he somehow got the fight.

 

[Glove]

Frank Shamrock

 

[JustBleed69]

Anderson Silva is the consensus greatest middleweight of all time and some argue he IS the greatest mixed martial artist ever but i was just wondering who is considered the second best mw? Middleweight is historically really stacked and has some great names there.


I want to say either Mousasi or Luke Rockhold have a great claim at being the right behind Andy as the MW goat if that makes sense.


What does sherdog think?

How the hell is Luke fucking Rockhold number 2? He has 0 title defenses .
If anything Franklin, Weidman, and Whittaker have a stronger claim to that status.

 

[BodybagJohnny**]

Moose-saucy

 

[Istryker]

Moose-saucy

yes

 

[Joker Jiujitsu]

And how many of those guys were actually the best version of themselves when they fought? He beat an old Machida and green Jacare and lost to them in the UFC. Weidman, Munoz, Philippou, and Hendo were 0-2, 1-2, 1-2, and 1-4 before Gegard beat them. Lombard was pre Bellator champ and Shlemenko was post Bellator champ. Really his best win is probably Carvalho and even then that's not a big accomplishment to be the 2nd greatest MW. And losing to Hall is worse for your legacy than actually beating him.

Well, I guess everybody just fucking sucks then.

 

[Nelly]

Well, I guess everybody just fucking sucks then.

Greatness is measured by how many great fighters in their prime that you beat. That's why people can rightfully argue that Ali and Pacquiao are greater than Floyd despite the losses on their record.

 

[pankrat]

How the hell is Luke fucking Rockhold number 2? He has 0 title defenses .
If anything Franklin, Weidman, and Whittaker have a stronger claim to that status.

I let you know that MMA exists out of UFC and Luke Rockhold was already a legitimate Strikeforce MW champ, 7-0 in the promotion, beeating guys who went to climb the top5 ranks in UFC shortly after just like him.

So whatever opinion you have about Rockhold for his UFC run, which was rather short but great btw, add to it his two legitimate defenses before even stepping in UFC