White boxers

[Cracky]

The point is what makes them rare, IS their race. If it weren't for that, what would be the rarity?



Are you serious? Ever hear of Marciano? Ever hear of Mancini? Ever hear of Dempsey? Ever hear of Cooney? These are the Fighters Caucasian America most readily identified with. And perhaps the detachment also stems from the History of Caucasian American Boxing, such as Dempsey's "White Hope" tournament to find someone to beat "The Brown Bomber"...and stating when Louis lost that it was the best thing that could have happened for the Sport at the time.

Pavlik is the next in-line, and while I don't think it's a bad thing that anyone has racial or nationalistic pride that they express through whom they like in Sports of whatever, at the same time I don't think there's a need to start a race war.

You're speaking of a different erra when talking of Dempsey and Marciano. When civil rights were a big issue and open racisim was common. The country hadn't yet begun to disown it's past in reference to slavery and the treatment of minorities.

I think people identified with Cooney and Mancini because they were different than everyone else at the top. White americans, that could fight. The same is true with Tiger Woods. Part of the reason he stood out was because he was a black man in a white dominated sport. The williams sisters were black women in a white dominated sport. They aren't even the best players..but in female tennis(and maybe even tennis over-all) they are the most well known and marketable. The same with Yao. He's not the best basketball player, but he's different and that pulls in fans.

We are dealing with a different generation of white folks. I don't believe that this generation assigns much value at all to the color of anybodies skin. It's not fair or accurate for anyone to suggest that Kelly Pavlik is only blowing up because he's the next "great white hope". He's different, he's a class act, and he fights with heart and skill. The fact that he's white only makes him stand out amongst his fellow boxers at the world class level.
That was the point of me posting this. Because, in the past, people have suggested that he only gets support because he's a white guy.

 

[Cracky]

hmm..my posts aren't showing up

 

[Jundon!]

i thought after watching the last olympics y dont black athletes take over the world!

No.

taking over the world lol.

 

[The Brand]

The media promotes minorities and minority fighters way more than they promote whites. I think a lot of whites grew up in this country seeing no white champions and just figured that whites weren't good enough to box. Meanwhile, over in eastern europe they didn't grow up with this fear and therefore a lot more whites turned out to box and they ended up doing pretty well. I think it's the same thing with mma. The reason you see so many good white fighers is because a lot of the early champions were white and it encouraged young white kids to go out for the sport.

 

[Deleted member 10003]

I think Kelly being white only adds a little flavor of fun for me really. I'd still like him no matter what race he is because of what he does in the ring. My favorite boxer is a black guy so I don't think race has much of an issue on my end.

I agree with the thread starter though. In a sport that is predominately dominated by non-whites it makes it interesting to see a white guy do so well. Like with Tiger in golf. Although Tiger is just ridiculous when it comes to golf.

 

[The Brand]

It's the same with basketball. The best white basketball players in the NBA are European. Now how the hell did that happen. Never underestimate the powers of the media.

 

[prosa123]

Much of Pavlik's image seems to be based not on his race, but on the fact that he's from Youngstown, a very run-down Rust Belt city sorely in need of a hero.

 

[The Brand]

Youngstown has always had a good boxing history and it was always big in the city, so he probably benefitted from all of the local gyms available. How many boxing gyms are you going to find in today's suburbs. The only boxing gyms you're going to find are little hole in the wall shit holes in the inner city.

 

[Sinister]

I think people identified with Cooney and Mancini because they were different than everyone else at the top. White americans, that could fight. The same is true with Tiger Woods. Part of the reason he stood out was because he was a black man in a white dominated sport. The williams sisters were black women in a white dominated sport. They aren't even the best players..but in female tennis(and maybe even tennis over-all) they are the most well known and marketable. The same with Yao. He's not the best basketball player, but he's different and that pulls in fans.

We are dealing with a different generation of white folks. I don't believe that this generation assigns much value at all to the color of anybodies skin. It's not fair or accurate for anyone to suggest that Kelly Pavlik is only blowing up because he's the next "great white hope". He's different, he's a class act, and he fights with heart and skill. The fact that he's white only makes him stand out amongst his fellow boxers at the world class level.

That was the point of me posting this. Because, in the past, people have suggested that he only gets support because he's a white guy.

It just seems that on one hand you're using the race card, suggesting Tiger Woods, the Williams Sisters, and Yao Ming's fame are based more on race than anything, and then attempting to disqualify that for a white guy.

Sounds kinda racist if you ask me.

 

[Tam-Tam]

Sherdog is ill equipped to handle a racial debate.

 

[Cracky]

It just seems that on one hand you're using the race card, suggesting Tiger Woods, the Williams Sisters, and Yao Ming's fame are based more on race than anything, and then attempting to disqualify that for a white guy.

Sounds kinda racist if you ask me.

No.. you're not getting what I'm saying. I'm saying that race is the reason that all these people stand out.. However, the idea that it's based on some sense of pride or a specific races feeling of racial superiority is what I am attacking.

 

[Sinister]

Sherdog is ill equipped to handle a racial debate.

There's very few Internet forums that are. Virtual anonymity tends to bring out idiocy.

No.. you're not getting what I'm saying. I'm saying that race is the reason that all these people stand out.. However, the idea that it's based on some sense of pride or a specific races feeling of racial superiority is what I am attacking.

But did you not also say that race is WHY Fighters like Pavlik stood out. That the fact that he's Caucasian American and the MW King makes him rare?

If that's so, then are you saying there's something inherently wrong with people feeling pride over that? Because unfortunately it's obvious that a lot of people do, and it's also obvious it's being marketed that way by his Promoters.

 

[Cracky]

Much of Pavlik's image seems to be based not on his race, but on the fact that he's from Youngstown, a very run-down Rust Belt city sorely in need of a hero.

Thats true. He's portrayed as the hard working average american much the way Mancini was. That sells

 

[Cracky]

Youngstown has always had a good boxing history and it was always big in the city, so he probably benefitted from all of the local gyms available. How many boxing gyms are you going to find in today's suburbs. The only boxing gyms you're going to find are little hole in the wall shit holes in the inner city.

those are the best gyms in the world imo.. the hole in the wall ones.

 

[Joey M.]

maybe, but I just don't see white people having that much racial pride.. partially because we are mutts for the most part. I see a lot of "Irish" pride when an Irish fighter comes along, but thats because the Irish have heratige. White people in general have no heratige, because we all come from different places.

As opposed to minorities who all come from the same place?

Are you one of those people who thinks that all black people look alike and therefore must have all come from the same place? Because, truly, black people only come from Africa; it's completely absurd to think that they also come from the UK, France, India, Brazil, Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago, Barbados, Cuba, or Haiti. All black people come only from Africa.

The same thing applies to Latinos; they only come from Mexico. The residents of Panama, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Colombia, Argentina, Guatemala, Peru, and Bolivia all speak the same language as most Mexicans, so those countries must not be any different either, right?

On top of that, our American heratige isn't exactly the most positive thing to look back on.
That said, I'm not ashamed to be white. I just feel no connection to it at all. I think a lot of white people are the same way.

First off, fuck you; American heritage is nothing to be ashamed of.

Secondly, there are a lot of white people who are proud of their Irish, English, Italian, French, German, Austrian, Russian, Scandanavian (i.e. Norweigan, Swedish, etc.) and Dutch heritage. Maybe if you took a minute to really look around instead of trying to sort everyone into overly-broad racial categories, you'd see that.

 

[Cracky]

There's very few Internet forums that are. Virtual anonymity tends to bring out idiocy.



But did you not also say that race is WHY Fighters like Pavlik stood out. That the fact that he's Caucasian American and the MW King makes him rare?

If that's so, then are you saying there's something inherently wrong with people feeling pride over that? Because unfortunately it's obvious that a lot of people do, and it's also obvious it's being marketed that way by his Promoters.

How is it any different than the Williams sisters? They stand out because of their race. There's no way around that. It's not about racial pride, because in order to acheive the success that they have they would have had to attract the majority race in America...= white folks. Same with tiger. It's about seeing something done that doesnt happen too often(if ever).

 

[Sinister]

First off, fuck you; American heritage is nothing to be ashamed of.

Er, don't act like American History isn't edited to be Eurocentric. The Europeans that came here were by-and-large not nice. Not that this should be held against anyone who isn't reaping benefits off that now, but still, depending on where your heritage lies being proud of attempts of genocide isn't exactly cool.

How is it any different than the Williams sisters? They stand out because of their race. There's no way around that. It's not about racial pride, because in order to acheive the success that they have they would have had to attract the majority race in America...= white folks. Same with tiger. It's about seeing something done that doesnt happen too often(if ever)

I think you completely missed my question, I'll make it simple:

Is it wrong for Caucasian Americans to feel proud for Kelly Pavlik because he is a Caucasian American who won the Middleweight Crown?

 

[Cracky]

Are you one of those people who thinks that all black people look alike and therefore must have all come from the same place? Because, truly, black people only come from Africa; it's completely absurd to think that they also come from the UK, France, India, Brazil, Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago, Barbados, Cuba, or Haiti. All black people come only from Africa.

The same thing applies to Latinos; they only come from Mexico. The residents of Panama, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Colombia, Brazil, Argentina, Guatemala, Peru, and Bolivia all speak the same language as most Mexicans, so those countries must not be any different either, right?



First off, fuck you; American heritage is nothing to be ashamed of.

Secondly, there are a lot of white people who are proud of their Irish, English, Italian, French, German, Austrian, Russian, Scandanavian (i.e. Norweigan, Swedish, etc.) and Dutch heritage. Maybe if you took a minute to really look around instead of trying to sort everyone into overly-broad racial categories, you'd see that.

Chill out emo

Ofcourse black people come from all over, but, in America, they have a binding history that instills a common thread of pride through every minority imo. White people do not. Our ancestors built this country on the backs of other races. How can anybody find anything to be proud of in there.


That said, people are getting all worked up. This was only intended to go against the idea that Pavlik was only blowing up because he was white. I'm not going to take it any further than that.. not in the boxing forum anyways.

 

[Cracky]

Er, don't act like American History isn't edited to be Eurocentric. The Europeans that came here were by-and-large not nice. Not that this should be held against anyone who isn't reaping benefits off that now, but still, depending on where your heritage lies being proud of attempts of genocide isn't exactly cool.



I think you completely missed my question, I'll make it simple:

Is it wrong for Caucasian Americans to feel proud for Kelly Pavlik because he is a Caucasian American who won the Middleweight Crown?

No it's not wrong.

 

[Joey M.]

Er, don't act like American History isn't edited to be Eurocentric. The Europeans that came here were by-and-large not nice. Not that this should be held against anyone who isn't reaping benefits off that now, but still, depending on where your heritage lies being proud of attempts of genocide isn't exactly cool.

But virtually every country has some dirt in its history. Should no one be proud to be German simply because of some asshole's megalomania? Should Italians disavow their heritage because The Romans ran over damn near everything on the European continent in their quest to build the greatest empire the world had ever seen? Liberians and Nicaraguans have dealt with their fair share of genocide, but should they somehow disavow their roots because of it? Name one country that hasn't totally screwed someone over in the course of its history and I'll show you a country that doesn't exist.