Where do you rank Mir and Lesnar amongst Heavyweights?

[blaseblase]

did he or did he not beat belt holders for the belt?

Did he earn a title shot? Yes or no? He fought a can and was signed with a 1-0 record. Gets immediately inserted against a top 10 heavyweight and loses. Then fights Heath Herring and gets a title shot.

Compare that to JDS who filled in as a last minute replacement against a top 5 heavyweight, KO'd them in spectacular fashion, then had to win an additional 6 fights before ever getting considered for a title shot. Had Brock had to work his way up like that he probably would have never gotten to the title. His success is because of UFC favoritism.

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

frånk mir and carwin too. way to cherry pick a 8 match resume

Yes, who Arlovskj also beat, and neither of those guys were title holders at the time. Well unless you're counting interim, which just don't.

 

[Chillez]

It's literally the other way around. Brock has no striking and AA has some of the best takedown defense in the heavyweight division. Andrei would smoke him.

AA TD isn’t good enough to top Brock takedowns and his GNP. I’m a huge fan of AA but his glass chin wouldn’t be good against Brock. This fight would go like Mark Hunt or Heath He

I'm not so sure Lesnar would win over a prime Big Nog. Big Nog was able to beat a prime Bob Sapp that was 350lbs and juiced out of his mind.

Yeah not sure Brock beats prime Big Nog either tough fight for him but would love to see it regardless. I love to see Brock against Werdum too even though that’s a tough fight for Brock.

 

[Chillez]

Yes, it is. His takedown defense was like 90 something percent. Brock stands up to punishment even worse than AA, dude. He would crumble.

You're way off on this.

I don’t think so but we will never know. A prime JDS scares the hell out of me more than AA does.

 

[arcadeperfect]

Fedor, Big Nog, Reem, Cain, Stipe, DC, Ngannou, Jones, Werdum, and Aspinall. There are guys like Barnett, Couture,Rizzo and Sylvia that have a chance in their prime condition.

JDS

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

I don’t think so but we will never know. A prime JDS scares the hell out of me more than AA does.

I mean, yes, prime JDS would absolutely smoke Lesnar. That's not what we're talking about though

 

[Chillez]

JDS

Most def

 

[JKS]

People overlook JDS because of the Cain fights. What they fail to remember is that he still has the best run up to the HW title. The guy made his debut against Werdum ffs and never had a freebie win or softball match up in the UFC.

Even post Cain he was still a top HW. Critics say he was shot after. Yet he still beat a prime Stipe and challenged for the HW title in 2016.

 

[arcadeperfect]

Even post Cain he was still a top HW. Critics say he was shot after. Yet he still beat a prime Stipe and challenged for the HW title in 2016.

Still a top HW after, but you could tell he had lost a step. His 2014 fight with Stipe was the last war JDS had in him. After that, anytime he lost it was from getting finished via strikes. Never had an easy fight however, lots of guys have non-wikipedia paged opponents on their records, not JDS though.

 

[markg171]

Lol just stop. He got a title shot with a 1-1 record. That's completely ludicrous and wouldn't have happened for anyone else in the sport. He got Dana White privilege via being a famous WWE guy.

Had he been forced to work his way up and earn a title shot the normal way he probably would have run into someone like Cain, JDS, or Werdum before ever getting to the title.

It's funny how everybody talks about Brock's unearned title shot but not Mir's against Nog. Mir wasn't ranked either and had no business fighting for the interim belt. The UFC just wanted the two HW submission kings to go at it.

Both of them were leapfrogging Werdum who was nonsensically (seemingly) matched up with the debuting JDS.

https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/2/Sherdog-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-14022

 

[Arcticman]

But he didn't earn it. He has no resume.

Thats actually makes what brock done even more insane he had no resume at all because he only had one MMA fight in he's whole career yet fought heavy champs in ufc from the start.


Name someone else that went in ufc after one mma fight and little to no training , fighting former champs in first their first matches ?

 

[Arcticman]

Did he earn a title shot? Yes or no? He fought a can and was signed with a 1-0 record. Gets immediately inserted against a top 10 heavyweight and loses. Then fights Heath Herring and gets a title shot.

Compare that to JDS who filled in as a last minute replacement against a top 5 heavyweight, KO'd them in spectacular fashion, then had to win an additional 6 fights before ever getting considered for a title shot. Had Brock had to work his way up like that he probably would have never gotten to the title. His success is because of UFC favoritism.

This is a huge pro for brock lol he beat frank and shane carwin and the likes with feck all mma experience or training lol imagine what he woud have done if had trained for MMA all he's life like mir and others did.

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

Thats actually makes what brock done even more insane he had no resume at all because he only had one MMA fight in he's whole career yet fought heavy champs in ufc from the start.


Name someone else that went in ufc after one mma fight and little to no training , fighting former champs in first their first matches ?

Little to no training? He was a wrestler his whole life.

 

[TerrorTimmy]

Mir was obviously a great grappler and won the belt. Great for his time and a pioneer of American HW MMA.

Brock had probably as much potential as anybody has ever had, but he started super late and didn't have the best team behind him. With a better gym and a younger start, he'd have been one of the all-time greats for sure imo. But he wasn't there long enough and the PEDs really bring him down badly

 

[blaseblase]

This is a huge pro for brock lol he beat frank and shane carwin and the likes with feck all mma experience or training lol imagine what he woud have done if had trained for MMA all he's life like mir and others did.

You are aware he was a D1 wrestler right?

 

[NoSmilez]

I'm not so sure Lesnar would win over a prime Big Nog. Big Nog was able to beat a prime Bob Sapp that was 350lbs and juiced out of his mind.

Lesnar is way more skilled than Bob Sapp. Lesnar can wrestle and still athletic enough to shoot a takedown. Lesnar isn't that lost on the ground and his gas tank while on top is great for a man his size. Sapp doesn't make it to decisions or past the 2nd round. He was a round 1 fighter for the majority of his competitive career. If Sapp fought Lesnar then it would look extremely easy for Lesnar. Lesnar can easily get on top and Sapp can't get back up. Bobb Sapp really never trained MMA. He got into K1 based off a recruiter seeing him on one Toughman competition against another football player. I am not sure if you watched the fight during that time. Bob Sapp was the underdog for that fight. It wasn't supposed to be competitive.

Look what Lesnar did to Mir who I can argue is way more dangerous than Nog on the ground in terms of snatching a sub. I believe Nogueira is the better martial artist vs Lesnar. It is just the matchup. Nog's skillset doesn't match up well against Lesnar's. Big Nog does shoot for takedowns to get on top but he isn't going to get position with Lesnar. His BJJ is a bit "old" since his style is from the 90s. I will admit him along with his brother brought in newer things like half guard into MMA. Nog isn't like Mir; he has to play the double wrist control while in guard waiting game in order to get the sub. Nog needs his opponent to get tired and he takes dmg during that time. Nog uses half guard to sweep but you honestly don't want to be in that position with Lesnar. You are just giving Lesnar what he wants in that position. It is a safe position for him. He can't get subbed from that position and his base is pretty good. Giving him that position to work from is terrible game plan.

 

[BigMuffler]

People overlook JDS because of the Cain fights. What they fail to remember is that he still has the best run up to the HW title. The guy made his debut against Werdum ffs and never had a freebie win or softball match up in the UFC.

He beat Werdum who beat Cain so the "winning head to head doesn't necessarily make someone the better fighter overall" argument could be applied to JDS vs Cain, JDS can also be argued to have a better resume.

 

[Arcticman]

You are aware he was a D1 wrestler right?

im fully aware but he was pro wrestler that started MMA training like one year prior to he's ufc debut and fought frank mir in he's debut match that just dosent happen d1 wrestler or not.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

Brock beats prime AA not a good matchup for him

I disagree. I think he'd have a hard time taking prime AA down and holding him down. Brock couldn't even hold down a 45 year old Randy.



Young AA would stop most of his takedowns and get back up from those he doesn't stop and one overhand and upper cut from AA and Brock would be in fetal position waiting for the ref to save him.

 

[Chillez]

I disagree. I think he'd have a hard time taking prime AA down and holding him down. Brock couldn't even hold down a 45 year old Randy.



Young AA would stop most of his takedowns and get back up from those he doesn't stop and one overhand and upper cut from AA and Brock would be in fetal position waiting for the ref to save him.

AA grappling is several tiers below Randy who is a three-time Olympic team alternate with Greco-Roman wrestling these two are night and day difference with grappling the gap is massive. AA will not be stopping Brock TD enough to keep the fight standing and hurt Brock on the feet. Prime Brock beats AA 8 out of 10 times.