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For instance... Between the 3rd Nog fight & Crocop, he fought TK.
What´s your assessment of that match-up?
Where do you rank Dc/Stipe in all time heavweight ranks?
- Thread starter JustOnce
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What´s your assessment of that match-up?
Mir and Cain and Cormier have very short resumes, so i think they re not above Cro Cop. I'd say that Cro Cop also has better resume than Arlovski. JDS, Stipe, Overeem also debatable and switchable. Stipe and JDS also don't have many fights. Current UFC stars never fought outside of cage and unified rules North American MMA that suits their style and never fought in ring and diffeerent rules, and never fought 8 fights in a year without rest and preparation camp, never fought multiple opponents on the same night.
Cage and unified rules are the worst possible for Cro Cop's K-1 kickboxing style. Put Cormier in RINGS rules for example in ring with no ground and pound to the head, no scoring for wrestling controll and emphasis on submission activity and Cormier would be lost and nowhere near that good as in America.
Put Jones in any ring organisation, smaller space, 4 true corners, with forbidden elbows and he would not be that good as in UFC.
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Cain and Cormier do have short resumes, but their quality of competition is very high. Cro Cop had a mma career spanning 18 years and his resume consists of Barnett 2x, Wanderlei, Igor, Aleks, and a few HWs' from early part of the 2000s in Coleman, Fujita, Randlman. It's not really an impressive resume TBH. I would take Cormier and Cain with his wins over Cro Cop.
Mir has a better resume no question. Nog 2x, Lesnar, Kongo, Cro Cop, Bigfoot Silva, Sylvia and Nelson. Look how many top level wins he has. As for JDS vs Cro Cop? Not really comparable, Juniors resume smokes Cro Cops. Arlovski vs Cro Cop might be a good debate. Overeems is better as well.
I don't agree at all.
Mir has 5 ranked Top 10 HW wins, while Cro Cop has 9 or 10, and Cro Cop has more other good wins than Mir, and Mir has only 18 wins totall. You deliberately mentioned only 2x wins vs Barnett, while Cro Cop has beaten Barnett 3 times, that says a lot about your opinion and integrity of your view. Cro Cop has double amount of quality wins than Cormier or Cain who have totall of only 8-9 quality HW wins in career, while Cro Cop has about 20. Newer generation of fighters are naturally younger, fought in more recent times, and have more wins vs newer generation of fighters, while Cro Cop is older than them, and naturally has more wins vs older generation of fighters since those fights happened in early 2000. It counts the same relative to time. Cro Cop beat older but still good Vovchanchyn, Coleman, Randleman in his time, Ngannou beat older Arlovski, JDS, Cain, and in the future some new young uprising fighter will beat older Ngannou; it is about the same relative value, just in different time.
You deliberatley left out many of Cro Cop's good wins, or you simply do not know who was valued as good by MMA fans and media in older historic times.
Cro Cop has: Coleman, Alex Emelianenko, Nelson, Aliakbari, + if someone like Tuivasa is good win for JDS then certanly 2x Ishii is also for Cro Cop.
+ Cro Cop's ranked wins:
MIRKO CRO COP's RANKED WINS:
WIN - Muhammed Lawal - Dec/29/2016 -- RIZIN - World Grand Prix 2016: 2nd Round
13 HW - 2016 - Dec 28 - Fightmatrix
12 LHW - 2016 - Dec 01 - Fightmatrix
8 LHW - 2016 - Sept 6 - Bleacher Report
9 LHW - 2016 - Dec - ESPN.com/mma
15 LHW - 2016 - Dec 27 - USA Today Sports/MMAJunkie
11 LHW - 2016 - Dec - ScorecardMMA
12 LHW - 2016 - Dec - RankingMMA
WIN - Gabriel Gonzaga - Apr/11/2015 -- UFC - Fight Night 64
14 - HW - 2015 - Mar - UFC Official Rankings
15 - HW - 2015 - Apr 3 - Tapology
WIN - Josh Barnett - Sep/10/2006 -- Pride FC - Final Conflict Absolute
4 HW - 2006 - AUG - Associated Fight Press
4 HW - 2006 - Aug 29 - MMA Weekly
*JUL1:Barnett>Hunt*
5 HW - 2006 - Jun 16 (26) - MMA Fighting
WIN - Wanderlei Silva - Sep/10/2006 -- Pride FC - Final Conflict Absolute
9 HW - 2006 - Aug - Inside Fighting
10 HW - 2006 - AUG - Associated Fight Press
2 LHW - 2006 - AUG - Associated Fight Press
2 LHW - 2006 - Aug 29 - MMA Weekly
*JUL1:Wand>Fujita*
9 P4P - 2006 - JUNE 16 (26) - MMA Fighting
WIN - Hidehiko Yoshida - Jul/1/2006 -- Pride FC - Critical Countdown Absolute
14 HW - 2006 - May 31 - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
WIN - Josh Barnett - Oct/23/2005 -- Pride 30 - Fully Loaded
6 HW - 2005 - Oct 25 - MMA Collective Rankings
7 HW - 2005 - Oct 7 - MMA Fighting
9 HW - 2005 - SEP (12) - Bloody Knux
7 HW - 2005 - Aug 12 - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
WIN - Ibragim Magomedov - Jun/26/2005 -- Pride -- Countdown 2005
11 HW - 2005 - FEB 28 - MMA Collective - MMARanks.com
WIN - Kevin Randleman - Dec/31/2004 -- Pride - Shockwave 2004
8 HW - 2004 - Dec - Inside Fighting
9 HW - 2004 - Dec 19 - Associated Fight Press
13 HW - 2004 - NOV - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
13 HW - 2004 - Nov 14 - MMA Fighting
7 LHW - 2004 - Oct 15 - Stephen Quadros Top 10
WIN - Josh Barnett - Oct/31/2004 -- Pride 28 - High Octane
3 HW - 2004 - Oct 15 - Stephen Quadros Top 10
3 HW - 2004 - Sep 21 - ADCC MMA Rankings
3 HW - 2004 - SEP (3?) - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
3 HW - 2004 - Aug 23 - MMA News
3 HW - 2004 - Jul 5 - MMA Fighting
WIN - Ron Waterman - Feb/1/2004 -- Pride 27 - Inferno
6 SHW - 2004 - Jan 4 - MMA Collective-Ufight
WIN - Igor Vovchanchyn - Aug/10/2003 -- Pride FC - Total Elimination 2003
10 HW - 2003 - Jun 28 - Stepehen Quadros
12 HW - 2003 - JUN - Associated Fight Press
14 HW - 2003 - JUN - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
WIN - Heath Herring - Jun/8/2003 -- Pride 26 - Bad to the Bone
5 HW - 2003 - May 4 - MMA News
6 HW - 2003 - MAY - Associated Fight Press
6 HW - 2003 - Mar 17 - Stepehen Quadros
6 HW - 2003 - Feb 15 - MMA Media Top 10
8 HW - 2003 - APR - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
WIN - Kazuyuki Fujita - Dec/31/2002 -- Inoki Bom-Ba-Ye 2002
10 HW - 2002 - OCT 2 - Magapi Vale Tudo - Valetudobrasil.cjb.net
WIN - Kazushi Sakuraba - Aug/28/2002 -- Pride FC - Shockwave
2 MW - 2002 - JUL - Associated Fight Press
3 MW - 2002 - Jun 18 - Stepehen Quadros
2 MW - 2002 - Jun 11 - MMA Media Top 10
WIN - Kazuyuki Fujita - Aug/19/2001 -- K-1 - Andy Hug Memorial
2 HW - 2001 - May 30 - Fighters Destiny - Fightersdestiny.com
6 HW - 2001 - Aug 6 - Stepehen Quadros
7 HW - 2001 - Aug 14 - MMA Media Top 10
WIN - Muhammed Lawal - Dec/29/2016 -- RIZIN - World Grand Prix 2016: 2nd Round
13 HW - 2016 - Dec 28 - Fightmatrix
12 LHW - 2016 - Dec 01 - Fightmatrix
8 LHW - 2016 - Sept 6 - Bleacher Report
9 LHW - 2016 - Dec - ESPN.com/mma
15 LHW - 2016 - Dec 27 - USA Today Sports/MMAJunkie
11 LHW - 2016 - Dec - ScorecardMMA
12 LHW - 2016 - Dec - RankingMMA
WIN - Gabriel Gonzaga - Apr/11/2015 -- UFC - Fight Night 64
14 - HW - 2015 - Mar - UFC Official Rankings
15 - HW - 2015 - Apr 3 - Tapology
WIN - Josh Barnett - Sep/10/2006 -- Pride FC - Final Conflict Absolute
4 HW - 2006 - AUG - Associated Fight Press
4 HW - 2006 - Aug 29 - MMA Weekly
*JUL1:Barnett>Hunt*
5 HW - 2006 - Jun 16 (26) - MMA Fighting
WIN - Wanderlei Silva - Sep/10/2006 -- Pride FC - Final Conflict Absolute
9 HW - 2006 - Aug - Inside Fighting
10 HW - 2006 - AUG - Associated Fight Press
2 LHW - 2006 - AUG - Associated Fight Press
2 LHW - 2006 - Aug 29 - MMA Weekly
*JUL1:Wand>Fujita*
9 P4P - 2006 - JUNE 16 (26) - MMA Fighting
WIN - Hidehiko Yoshida - Jul/1/2006 -- Pride FC - Critical Countdown Absolute
14 HW - 2006 - May 31 - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
WIN - Josh Barnett - Oct/23/2005 -- Pride 30 - Fully Loaded
6 HW - 2005 - Oct 25 - MMA Collective Rankings
7 HW - 2005 - Oct 7 - MMA Fighting
9 HW - 2005 - SEP (12) - Bloody Knux
7 HW - 2005 - Aug 12 - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
WIN - Ibragim Magomedov - Jun/26/2005 -- Pride -- Countdown 2005
11 HW - 2005 - FEB 28 - MMA Collective - MMARanks.com
WIN - Kevin Randleman - Dec/31/2004 -- Pride - Shockwave 2004
8 HW - 2004 - Dec - Inside Fighting
9 HW - 2004 - Dec 19 - Associated Fight Press
13 HW - 2004 - NOV - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
13 HW - 2004 - Nov 14 - MMA Fighting
7 LHW - 2004 - Oct 15 - Stephen Quadros Top 10
WIN - Josh Barnett - Oct/31/2004 -- Pride 28 - High Octane
3 HW - 2004 - Oct 15 - Stephen Quadros Top 10
3 HW - 2004 - Sep 21 - ADCC MMA Rankings
3 HW - 2004 - SEP (3?) - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
3 HW - 2004 - Aug 23 - MMA News
3 HW - 2004 - Jul 5 - MMA Fighting
WIN - Ron Waterman - Feb/1/2004 -- Pride 27 - Inferno
6 SHW - 2004 - Jan 4 - MMA Collective-Ufight
WIN - Igor Vovchanchyn - Aug/10/2003 -- Pride FC - Total Elimination 2003
10 HW - 2003 - Jun 28 - Stepehen Quadros
12 HW - 2003 - JUN - Associated Fight Press
14 HW - 2003 - JUN - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
WIN - Heath Herring - Jun/8/2003 -- Pride 26 - Bad to the Bone
5 HW - 2003 - May 4 - MMA News
6 HW - 2003 - MAY - Associated Fight Press
6 HW - 2003 - Mar 17 - Stepehen Quadros
6 HW - 2003 - Feb 15 - MMA Media Top 10
8 HW - 2003 - APR - Fighters & Broadcasters Poll
WIN - Kazuyuki Fujita - Dec/31/2002 -- Inoki Bom-Ba-Ye 2002
10 HW - 2002 - OCT 2 - Magapi Vale Tudo - Valetudobrasil.cjb.net
WIN - Kazushi Sakuraba - Aug/28/2002 -- Pride FC - Shockwave
2 MW - 2002 - JUL - Associated Fight Press
3 MW - 2002 - Jun 18 - Stepehen Quadros
2 MW - 2002 - Jun 11 - MMA Media Top 10
WIN - Kazuyuki Fujita - Aug/19/2001 -- K-1 - Andy Hug Memorial
2 HW - 2001 - May 30 - Fighters Destiny - Fightersdestiny.com
6 HW - 2001 - Aug 6 - Stepehen Quadros
7 HW - 2001 - Aug 14 - MMA Media Top 10
Also when we consider Cro Cop's career we must allways have in mind that a higher power beyond controll did him injustice. After winning Grand Prix he should have rematched Fedor, and he lost that chance due to PRIDE going under. UFC did not went under when Cormier was fighting Stipe, or when Cain was fighting Lesnar or JDS, and they got their chances, they did not have to go to fight to Pancrase in fights that bring a lot less and totally different rules and environment.
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I mentioned Barnett 2x, because no one regards his injury win a real win, I mean the fight lasted less than a minute and nothing happened.
I watched Cro Cops career prior to Pride and K1 so I know the value of his wins very well. And unfortunately many of his wins are not high quality wins. The rankings you bring up don't have much relevance to today because they guys like Fujita, Herring, Randleman, Igor and Waterman ranked where they are is not the same as HW's being ranked top 10 from 2012 to now. Those guys were ranked top 5 or 10 with average records .500 records.
I left those wins out simply because they are not really high level wins or really relevant. I mean beating Aleks back in 04 in his 4th mma fight isn't really a top win, beating Nelson in 2019 isn't really a top win, no one cares about Aliakbari or Yoshida, and that is why I never mentioned Tai as a good win for JDS. If were gonna talk good wins for JDS you go Cain, Mir, Carwin, Nelson in 2012, Stipe, Cro Cop in 09, Werdum, Hunt, Gonzaga in 2010, Rothwell, Lewis, Ivanov. But names like Tai, Struve, Yvel, I don't really mention....Cro Cop has way too many of those so so wins and not enough top level ones.
And to your point about Cro Cop beating older Colmean, Randleman and Igor and comparing that to Francis beating JDS, Andrei, and Cain. The difference is those guys are all top level HWs that have accomplished a lot more than the others have in a more far more developed era.
Cro Cop's win vs Barnett is completely legit. Cro Cop locked and pressured his arms and dislocated Barnett's shoulder or collar bone. Win written on record, and that's the end of it.
Yoshida, Magomedov, Waterman, King Mo, Aliakbari, Nelson were all good wins against fighters who presented significant risk at those times, and who were considered good. Those type of opponents can cause upsets against top fighters, speciall if you fight 6 times per year, they possess skill. Modern UFC fighters would lose to those type of opponents if they had to fight more often without rest, without much preparation, without full camp, fighting with body and mind burn out, and without adjusting peak form just once or twice per year.
A lot bigger amount of those wins really scores in favour for Cro Cop against fighters with low number of fights who avoided risk and stayed inactive.
But even by your criteria and example of JDS count, Cro Cop has: Fujita 2x, Barnett 3x, Herring, Coleman, Randleman, Alex Emelianenko, Vovchanchyn, Wanderlei, Gonzaga, Sakuraba, so he is not behind likes of Cain, JDS, Cormier, and he is not behind them in amount of ranked wins.
Coleman, Vovchanchyn, Randleman were among the most acomplished and decorated fighters in those years 2003-2005 when the fights took place, and were still relevant, so comparison with Ngannou beating Cain, JDS, Arlovski is correct.
Alex Emelianenko entered top 10 rankings just 3 months after Cro Cop fight by beating former big name Carlos Baretto and top prospect Thompson.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041204071256/http://www.mmaranks.com/hw
And he was allready combat Sambo world champion, that means he was more experienced than Mirko because combat Sambo is pretty equal to MMA, it has all elements - striking, takedowns, submissions, and he was training for long time with Fedor and his team.
Even Sakuraba was big favourite in Cro Cop fight, and UFC HW tournament champion who beat 6 UFC HW & LHW champions: Randleman, Royce, Belfort, Shamrock, Rampage, Mezger. So correct historical context has to be respected. Cro Cop's win vs Sakuraba was considered as an upset and pretty big win by all fans, media, journalists in 2002.
HW division was certanly developed enough after the year 2000, and its results and rankings can be considered legit and can be compaired to more recent times. Nobody of those ranked fighters was ranked with .500 record at that time, you are completely wrong, they all had very positive records at those times. HW division has shown the least amount of evolution, and it is the first division that was formed, and first that reached reasonably developed state.
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If DC beats Stipe a 2nd time, and can get another title defense at HW, I'd have him top 3 all time. If he beats a guy like Ngannou, I'd rank him top 2. I just can't rank him above a prime Fedor, because of how dominant Fedor was during his run, and his 2 dominations of Big Nog, and his epic win against Cro Cop.
As for fantasy matchups, I think he has a very hard time with prime Fedor, Cro Cop, and Cain. If Cain never got injured, and his body destroyed, I think he goes down as the HW GOAT. But I also could see DC beating all those guys as well.
If only we got to see DC vs a prime JDS. That fight would've really told us how he ranks all time at HW. Of course, that's after JDS KOd Cain in their first fight.
As for fantasy matchups, I think he has a very hard time with prime Fedor, Cro Cop, and Cain. If Cain never got injured, and his body destroyed, I think he goes down as the HW GOAT. But I also could see DC beating all those guys as well.
If only we got to see DC vs a prime JDS. That fight would've really told us how he ranks all time at HW. Of course, that's after JDS KOd Cain in their first fight.
