What in JJJ did the Gracies change to create BJJ?

[CinemaKingdom]

What's your name? What brawl?

Anytime the name "Gracie" is mentioned this guy (Os3y3ris) comes out of the woodwork. He is butthurt because he took some classes from them or something, and didn't get promoted? I don't remember, or care. I'm probably going to block him because he is so annoying and bias.

 

[Os3y3ris]

What's your name? What brawl?

I'm Jordan Tabor. Like, I said, biggest brawl in US history. I don't need a Gracie stamp. I think they're leeches who try to make fighting and grappling all about them.

 

[Os3y3ris]

Anytime the name "Gracie" is mentioned this guy (Os3y3ris) comes out of the woodwork. He is butthurt because he took some classes from them or something, and didn't get promoted? I don't remember, or care. I'm probably going to block him because he is so annoying and bias.

No, I'm butt hurt because they stole everything I had from me and started a hate group while they were at it.

 

[Enclave]

Nothing. They just went about it in a more methodological way.

 

[Coconutwater]

I hate this sentiment

Even the oldest JJJ manuals you can found would have pretty much the same principles behind the techniques, look at the curriculum. what strength based submission do people think people were doing?

JJJ/TJJ is very much technique based on leverage, off balancing and so on.

the myth about Helio being so frail that he changed the techniques makes JJJ/judo out to be something it is not.

Kano and most of the original judo players were even smaller and frailer then Helio ffs

Not taking anything away from GJJ, they changed the tactics/strategy and got damn frekkin good at what they did, but the principles of the techniques is still the same.

Yeah , the Gracies didn’t tweak anything, they just chose to focus on elements: Close distance, takedown, obtain superior position, submission hunt.

The reality is, the Gracies were not technical enough to throw people, they would lose, even the younger fighters aren’t good with takedowns against other good grapplers, so they focused on attacking while on the ground.

 

[Enclave]

Yeah , the Gracies didn’t tweak anything, they just chose to focus on elements: Close distance, takedown, obtain superior position, submission hunt.

The reality is, the Gracies were not technical enough to throw people, they would lose, even the younger fighters aren’t good with takedowns against other good grapplers, so they focused on attacking while on the ground.

Who is considered to have the best takedowns of the Gracies?

 

[Coconutwater]

I don’t remember how Neiman Gracie’s is but all are pretty bad at it, the only doubles they pulled off where against weak grapplers. The doubles were usually predicated by their stomp kick or an ugly flurry of bull crap punches to try and distract the opponent (think Renzo) before clinching.

Rickson looked like a mummy closing the distance, Royce looked okay, explosive with his takedowns, but his opponents were one dimensional. I can’t pick.

Kron struggles, Rener and Ryron don’t fight, Ralek’s takedowns don’t come to mind….

I can’t think of any Gracie’s with competent MMA takedowns agains true fighters.

 

[Sweeptheleg7]

No, I'm butt hurt because they stole everything I had from me and started a hate group while they were at it.

Im curious, but do you regret not paying him? In hindsight, it wasn’t that much money. If you did, you could be running a school with maybe some affiliates and competing without any distractions. I wonder if it’s not too late to mend fences. I mean Kevin Casey made up and got his black belt so that might be a real opportunity. I mean it seems like you knew about the leg lock stuff befor the danaher death squad guys did who knows what may have happened if you could just focus on training.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Yeah , the Gracies didn’t tweak anything, they just chose to focus on elements: Close distance, takedown, obtain superior position, submission hunt.

The reality is, the Gracies were not technical enough to throw people, they would lose, even the younger fighters aren’t good with takedowns against other good grapplers, so they focused on attacking while on the ground.

Pretty much. And I'm Brazilian but I know the Gracies are full of it. First person who told me this was my bjj instructor, he said BJJ and Judo are the same and I asked what about the stuff about BJJ requiring less strength? He said it is bullshit.
If you think about it, Judo was developed by Jigoro Kano, dude was tiny, even for turn of the 20th century Japan. Helio Gracie, on the other hand, wasn't even that small, Kimura says in his book he was considerably taller than himself.
When somebody asks me about it my response goes something like this:
There were many schools of Japanese Ju Jutsu, JJJ was in the decline as Japan was modernizing, Jigoro Kano wanted to learn it and make a more modern form of it and promote it around the world. He created Judo but at the time many called it just Ju Jutsu. He sent one of his students to Brazil and he taught the Gracies, a somewhat wealthy family that could pay him for personal classes. They then started teaching it around Brazil. They changed the rules so you couldn't get an Ippon just by throwing an opponent. So Brazilians focused more on pure grappling on the ground. The techniques are the same they learned from the Japanese but as we focused on ground fighting we had a competitive advantage there.
I think BJJ is more interesting than Judo, I understand that a throw on hard ground could probably kill a man but as a sport I find it anticlimatic that the fight ends right there and modern Judo sucks even more, most of the Ippons look like two dudes awkwardly falling together.

Also, the Gracies got their asses kicked by Brazilian catch wrestlers from time to time but they don't talk about that too much.

I do give credit to the Gracies for popularizing BJJ and in a way MMA. You gotta give it to them, they were brave, taking on a bunch of guys for almost no money at the time.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Pretty much. And I'm Brazilian but I know the Gracies are full of it. First person who told me this was my bjj instructor, he said BJJ and Judo are the same and I asked what about the stuff about BJJ requiring less strength? He said it is bullshit.
If you think about it, Judo was developed by Jigoro Kano, dude was tiny, even for turn of the 20th century Japan. Helio Gracie, on the other hand, wasn't even that small, Kimura says in his book he was considerably taller than himself.
When somebody asks me about it my response goes something like this:
There were many schools of Japanese Ju Jutsu, JJJ was in the decline as Japan was modernizing, Jigoro Kano wanted to learn it and make a more modern form of it and promote it around the world. He created Judo but at the time many called it just Ju Jutsu. He sent one of his students to Brazil and he taught the Gracies, a somewhat wealthy family that could pay him for personal classes. They then started teaching it around Brazil. They changed the rules so you couldn't get an Ippon just by throwing an opponent. So Brazilians focused more on pure grappling on the ground. The techniques are the same they learned from the Japanese but as we focused on ground fighting we had a competitive advantage there.
I think BJJ is more interesting than Judo, I understand that a throw on hard ground could probably kill a man but as a sport I find it anticlimatic that the fight ends right there and modern Judo sucks even more, most of the Ippons look like two dudes awkwardly falling together.

Also, the Gracies got their asses kicked by Brazilian catch wrestlers from time to time but they don't talk about that too much.

I do give credit to the Gracies for popularizing BJJ and in a way MMA. You gotta give it to them, they were brave, taking on a bunch of guys for almost no money at the time.

What do you think about the Sambo rule of being able to win by throw, but only if you manage to both throw the opponent flat on his back and stay on your feet yourself?

 

[Coconutwater]

Pretty much. And I'm Brazilian but I know the Gracies are full of it. First person who told me this was my bjj instructor, he said BJJ and Judo are the same and I asked what about the stuff about BJJ requiring less strength? He said it is bullshit.
If you think about it, Judo was developed by Jigoro Kano, dude was tiny, even for turn of the 20th century Japan. Helio Gracie, on the other hand, wasn't even that small, Kimura says in his book he was considerably taller than himself.
When somebody asks me about it my response goes something like this:
There were many schools of Japanese Ju Jutsu, JJJ was in the decline as Japan was modernizing, Jigoro Kano wanted to learn it and make a more modern form of it and promote it around the world. He created Judo but at the time many called it just Ju Jutsu. He sent one of his students to Brazil and he taught the Gracies, a somewhat wealthy family that could pay him for personal classes. They then started teaching it around Brazil. They changed the rules so you couldn't get an Ippon just by throwing an opponent. So Brazilians focused more on pure grappling on the ground. The techniques are the same they learned from the Japanese but as we focused on ground fighting we had a competitive advantage there.
I think BJJ is more interesting than Judo, I understand that a throw on hard ground could probably kill a man but as a sport I find it anticlimatic that the fight ends right there and modern Judo sucks even more, most of the Ippons look like two dudes awkwardly falling together.

Also, the Gracies got their asses kicked by Brazilian catch wrestlers from time to time but they don't talk about that too much.

I do give credit to the Gracies for popularizing BJJ and in a way MMA. You gotta give it to them, they were brave, taking on a bunch of guys for almost no money at the time.

I give them great respect for being methodical in how they teach the art. Helio and Rorion where very organized and this influenced the speed and effectiveness of the early students. In terms of bravery, I’ll admit they have some bravery, obviously, but they were so much more prepared for fighting than their opponents.

When you know jiu-jitsu and the other person doesn’t know much grappling, you have little to fear. Without experience in ground fighting with no rules, a big guy isn’t that threatening. Once people learned the concepts of MMA/Vale Tudo, the Gracie family became selective of whom they’d face.

 

[Os3y3ris]

Im curious, but do you regret not paying him? In hindsight, it wasn’t that much money. If you did, you could be running a school with maybe some affiliates and competing without any distractions. I wonder if it’s not too late to mend fences. I mean Kevin Casey made up and got his black belt so that might be a real opportunity. I mean it seems like you knew about the leg lock stuff befor the danaher death squad guys did who knows what may have happened if you could just focus on training.

No. I regret not shooting him. Being owned is not acceptable to me. Of course people can't collect out of my paychecks when I get promoted at work. WHAT? That is absurd and I have yet to encounter such thuggery since.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

What do you think about the Sambo rule of being able to win by throw, but only if you manage to both throw the opponent flat on his back and stay on your feet yourself?

I don't know anything about Sambo but I think it's interesting. But to be honest what I really enjoy is nogi. I'm in Brazil, most of the street fights happen with two people wearing board shorts, a wife beater and flip flops, I find the gi stuff archaic. When Kano created Judo he wanted the clothing to reflect what people were wearing at the time. The Japanese actually wore Kimonos(gi) and sometimes a Hakama(think Aikido) skirt. Kano removed the Hakama and added western pants because he thought that would be more modern and he was kind of right.
Now, Judo is a sport and so is Sambo and BJJ and it doesn't necessarily needs to reflect street fighting but I always thought it was kind of boring to learn these moves where you tie somebody up with his own gi.

I give them great respect for being methodical in how they teach the art. Helio and Rorion where very organized and this influenced the speed and effectiveness of the early students. In terms of bravery, I’ll admit they have some bravery, obviously, but they were so much more prepared for fighting than their opponents.

When you know jiu-jitsu and the other person doesn’t know much grappling, you have little to fear. Without experience in ground fighting with no rules, a big guy isn’t that threatening. Once people learned the concepts of MMA/Vale Tudo, the Gracie family became selective of whom they’d face.

The later gracies fought mostly cans but still, Royce fought Ken Shamrock and Sakuraba. Even fighting a guy like Kimo isn't easy. The early gracies fought some catch wrestlers too, and probably lost to them. There is a guy called Rufino dos Santos who probably beat Carlos Gracie in the 30s but it seems Gracie got him in a RNC after the bell, and then later on 3 Gracies attacked him on the streets. They were kind of crazy.
George Gracie also fought Euclydes Hatem a big luta livre(catch as catch can wrestling) fighter and got beat.

Im curious, but do you regret not paying him? In hindsight, it wasn’t that much money. If you did, you could be running a school with maybe some affiliates and competing without any distractions. I wonder if it’s not too late to mend fences. I mean Kevin Casey made up and got his black belt so that might be a real opportunity. I mean it seems like you knew about the leg lock stuff befor the danaher death squad guys did who knows what may have happened if you could just focus on training.

I'm out of the loop, what's going on? lol

 

[Coconutwater]

I don't know anything about Sambo but I think it's interesting. But to be honest what I really enjoy is nogi. I'm in Brazil, most of the street fights happen with two people wearing board shorts, a wife beater and flip flops, I find the gi stuff archaic. When Kano created Judo he wanted the clothing to reflect what people were wearing at the time. The Japanese actually wore Kimonos(gi) and sometimes a Hakama(think Aikido) skirt. Kano removed the Hakama and added western pants because he thought that would be more modern and he was kind of right.
Now, Judo is a sport and so is Sambo and BJJ and it doesn't necessarily needs to reflect street fighting but I always thought it was kind of boring to learn these moves where you tie somebody up with his own gi.

The later gracies fought mostly cans but still, Royce fought Ken Shamrock and Sakuraba. Even fighting a guy like Kimo isn't easy. The early gracies fought some catch wrestlers too, and probably lost to them. There is a guy called Rufino dos Santos who probably beat Carlos Gracie in the 30s but it seems Gracie got him in a RNC after the bell, and then later on 3 Gracies attacked him on the streets. They were kind of crazy.
George Gracie also fought Euclydes Hatem a big luta livre(catch as catch can wrestling) fighter and got beat.


I'm out of the loop, what's going on? lol

I read about the Rufino pipe hitting debacle, Helio getting mounted by his nephew Carley and pummeled , and all the other family drama, they are without a doubt, the most influential martial arts family in history, and the reason why jiu jitsu is so well known throughout the world.

 

[cheachea]

I think that they should be given credit for putting it all together in a systematized package / way of fighting : front kick, distance management, cover up and clinch, various take downs depending on the opponents reaction, back takes, many different submissions etc.

We really should give credit to Rorion Gracie for helping to mass market the art on a large scale in my opinion.

 

[Fruitsaladsushi]

Açai

 

[JacJeanFinger]

Judo is largely a part of public school education and non-profit just like wrestling in the US whereas BJJ was originally made available to the general consumers as and still largely is a private business where you pay for your lessons. And in order to protect business, they kept Japanese people from entering dojos who could possibly discredit authenticity of what's being taught. That would be the major change they made to judo because judo was designed to be taught universally and equally.

Technical difference doesn't exist as it's been debated numerous times since 90s. BJJ comes directly from judo and every single move has a name in Japanese.

I personally prefer the ancient Gracie dojo operation. Humaita style. Honor is valued above everything. No cross training. Pretty much the same with the way jujutsu was taught in Japan during the feudal era. Today BJJ and judo have one thing in common; lots of athletes, no warriors. No Class.

 

[Seefoo]

The Guard system.

 

[Matsukaze]

I took Judo for several years before getting into bjj. Not once in Judo did we ever cover any ground work other than turtle up and restart. So to me, at least, they are different styles

 

[BJJ Lover]

Seems like this topic doesn't have a lot of firm concrete answers, but what's been happening in the last 20 years in front of our eyes is a clue.

BJJ entered a leg lock revolution.

The sport pretty much took all the leg locks from Sambo and Catch-Wrestling, added in innovation from gyms around the world, and now everyone saying "this is all BJJ, look how complex and big BJJ is!".

To me it suggests that BJJ is pretty much the MMA of grappling.

Any technique that's legal within the ruleset eventually gets claimed.

I personally like the idea of treating it as a Japanese art despite its journey across Brazil and America.

All the stuff like de la riva guard and other fancy "BJJ" positions have been already practiced in Judo varieties decades prior and can be seen on film.