What in JJJ did the Gracies change to create BJJ?

[ViciousVic]

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[Rod1]

Aside from the rubber guard there is little that has been invented, and that's not even the point, arguing who was first its pointless, they share the same philosophy and the same training methods, and that's the core of judo, judo its not a set of moves.QUOTE]

but you said that bjj is basically judo on the ground , You started the point why say its pointless now ?


Judo and bjj are different There is nothing you can say that will make me think any different .

There way more moves that have been invented in bjj then judo , you will never see inverted guard , tornado guard , 50/50 etc .
The different rule set has made it into a completly different sport .

I used to talk like you when i did judo but when i started bjj and actually Know the difference my attitude is completly different .

1.- It wasn't me who said BJJ is judo in the ground, which actually it is if you go with complete judo, not the IJF judo.

2.- It doesn't really matters what you and i think, BJJ and Judo are certainly different because of the rules, but they are more similar than you may think, specially when you get a good judo teacher who is not afraid of newaza, my judo background was 50/50 when it came to standup and tachiwaza, and i fear much more my judo teacher on the ground than my bjj teacher. I appreciate however newaza specific classes and the chance to spar with a lot of good people in the ground.

Kosen means university doesnt it ?

Its an abbreviation of high school and university.

That means the game is not about positional heirachy. You don't have attempts to pass guard unless the opponent screws up a triangle. Their aren't advancements from side control, to mount, knee on belly or mount. Hell, their aren't even that many submission attempts because you can simply win by securing a pin. The guard isn't near as dynamic. A lot more armbars, cross collar chokes and sweeps into osaekomi. The guard is more like leg scissors. BJJ is grappling. Judo is grappling. They are similar, but different. Kodokan Judo, and Kosen Judo are almost exactly the same. If you roll with a Kosen guy you feel it immediately.

Where did you do Kosen judo? i know there are pinnings and i also know how hard its to pin a competitive grappler, i have easily the best if not the best positional grappling outside the instructor at my BJJ school entirely because of competitive judo, its HARD to keep someone pinned. In wrestling pinning is 2 seconds and still people have trouble pinning, because when someone is a horse, its hard to keep them down.

I really don't feel ANY difference between my newaza classes and BJJ classes, in newaza classes randori is generally towards the submission, not the osaekomi. The main difference is competition.

But again competition its less than 1% of your growth, if i spent 1000 hours training in the ground going for the submission ill develop the same game than in BJJ, even though competition is different.

If any difference is that in judo, even in training, its harder to secure side control or mount, because judokas don't feel comfortable there, they will spaz and get back into guard or halfguard or give their backs and fight from turtle guard.

 

[Rod1]

It's not semantics, Kosen j

 

[nefti]

rod1
have are you in japan right now? How long have you trained there?

 

[_Glorfindel_]

All japan judo has the same rules except that they don't have same weight classes, and again.

Are you saying me that a freestyle wrestler from Russia would have the same ground control and scramble abilities than a folkstyle wrestler from the USA? are you kidding me?

Kosen judo even claims themselves as being the "mecca of newaza" try visiting the Kyoto university homepage ill post later with some evidence

Evidence of what??? Kosen judo is kodokan judo lol!!!

Please, go on judo forum and start a thread about that, i'm sure you will arg with people a lot more knowledgable than i am. I have no credibility in your eyes and it's ok. But on judoforum you will arg with 7th, 8th dan native japanese sensei with 40-50-60 years of judo under their 'belt'. Please do it and copy paste us the answer you will get.

 

[lechien]

Why do you think that the cover of this very book is 'historicaly right' ???

I can find book saying that americans didnt go on the moon you know...

But i'm not sure you got my point anyway. What ever people of that time may call Kano judo, jjj do not equal Judo!!

You are missing the point.

While you want to start arguing something else, I am just point out that at that particular time, it was the terminology used.

I am not arguing that it was the correct terminology,

I am just pointing out on some evidence which could explain how the Gracies came up with the idea of calling it Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

 

[_Glorfindel_]

You are missing the point.

While you want to start arguing something else, I am just point out that at that particular time, it was the terminology used.

I am not arguing that it was the correct terminology,

I am just pointing out some evidence which could explain how the Gracies came up with the idea of calling it Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

Ok i got your point. Sorry if i didnt get it the first time

I already asked the question about your claim (at that particular time it was the terminology used) I'm waiting for answers and i will copy past them here.

I'm realy curious about that and i'm willing to think that's something to do with translation from japanese to english.

 

[Rod1]

Evidence of what??? Kosen judo is kodokan judo lol!!!

Please, go on judo forum and start a thread about that, i'm sure you will arg with people a lot more knowledgable than i am. I have no credibility in your eyes and it's ok. But on judoforum you will arg with 7th, 8th dan native japanese sensei with 40-50-60 years of judo under their 'belt'. Please do it and copy paste us the answer you will get.

So? there has been arguing between JIGORO KANO and the "Kosen Judo" over the rules and the emphasis in newaza, in 1983 Tokyo university tried to move Kosen Judo rules towards towards the IJF or Kodokan approved rules and Kyoto university which produces the best kosen judokas prevented it Kosen Judo was cancelled for over 3 years because of that dispute.

And the reason they point out is because they want to preserve newaza domination in Kosen judo, i can provide the words of 10th dans promoting as much as 50/50 newaza judo even though Kano said that a 70/30 should be the norm. Thinking that judo is some kind of monolith is a joke, you can have disagreeing 6+ dans.

The hell in judoforum you have people arguing about blue judogis when Anton Geesink A 10TH FREAKING DAN himself supported them.

Judoforum is filled with a lot of elitism.

 

[Rod1]

Here is the link from Kyoto university with the story of Kosen or "scholastic" judo.

History

 

[lechien]

Ok i got your point. Sorry if i didnt get it the first time

I already asked the question about your claim (at that particular time it was the terminology used) I'm waiting for answers and i will copy past them here.

I'm realy curious about that and i'm willing to think that's something to do with translation from japanese to english.

Sorry I did not understand your question.

Are you reffering to the use of the term of Jiu Jitsu instead of Judo or the misspelling Jiu Jitsu to Ju Jutsu?

 

[fourfif**]

I really don't feel ANY difference between my newaza classes and BJJ classes,

Same here. Minus tachiwaza, it's identical, at least in my limited experience.

 

[redaxe]

I really don't feel ANY difference between my newaza classes and BJJ classes, in newaza classes randori is generally towards the submission, not the osaekomi. The main difference is competition.

Really? You haven't noticed a heavier emphasis on techniques that involve either tori or uke being in the "turtle position" compared to a BJJ class?

That's one fo the biggest differences I noticed. Judo instructors tell you to turtle up, BJJ instructors tell you NOT to turtle up.

 

[YeahBee]

Same here. Minus tachiwaza, it's identical, at least in my limited experience.

Either a very very good judo school or a bad bjj place

I am not a high level grappler (be it judo, bjj or sw) but I have tasted some pretty high level guys in training,

national/nordic champs in judo who have European experience, thrown merciless standing naturally and submitted on the ground naturally. but their games on the ground has been very rigid and very specific

BJJ, I have rolled with european purple belt champs, couldn't pull of a single thing really, a joy to roll with but he coaches me thru the escapes as he rolls

 

[fourfif**]

Either a very very good judo school or a bad bjj place

Willy Cahill's place. Former US Olympic Judo coach. (gi) BJJ I've done at Ralph Gracie's and Sergio Silva's....

Edit: So I'm comparing VERY good Judo to very good BJJ.

 

[Rod1]

Really? You haven't noticed a heavier emphasis on techniques that involve either tori or uke being in the "turtle position" compared to a BJJ class?

That's one fo the biggest differences I noticed. Judo instructors tell you to turtle up, BJJ instructors tell you NOT to turtle up.

Where do you trained judo? Judo its not as standarized as BJJ, coaches who tell you to turtle up are probably coaches that only look at the competitive side or the ones that "study for the test".

My school of judo comes from Cuba, and my coach always shunned going turtle and going flat, he taught to look for the win at all times and be aggressive, when we turtled he said "If Judo was naked nobody would give the back, stop fucking around and work". And everytime i heard "If judo was naked, if judo was naked" etc etc, it was hardwired, i tend to give the back as i don't like being pinned because of judo, but i never go passive turtle, we learned a lot of reversals from any position in the turtle and learned to better positions.

Again it depends on who your teacher is, its going to be very different to learn judo in a YMCA club than training in the International Budo University under Kashiwazaki.

 

[Rod1]

Master Tsunetane Oda by Toshikazu Okada

Another article on "Scholastic Judo".

 

[Calibur]

Where did you do Kosen judo? i know there are pinnings and i also know how hard its to pin a competitive grappler, i have easily the best if not the best positional grappling outside the instructor at my BJJ school entirely because of competitive judo, its HARD to keep someone pinned. In wrestling pinning is 2 seconds and still people have trouble pinning, because when someone is a horse, its hard to keep them down.

My current BJJ instructor was a Judo trainer at Kyoto University. He has contacts down there and when the students of his friends make a trip to Tokyo sometimes we play under Kosen rules. Kosen is very distinctive. They roll like all the Judo guys (I've done Judo all over the place for a long time.) I've ever rolled with. Wierder still, is my instructor has experience with Kosen rules, opted to focus on BJJ and get his black belt, and than began teaching BJJ to his considerably older Judo teacher (who is experienced with Kosen rules) and eventually gave his own Judo sensei a blackbelt in BJJ. Kosen and BJJ are no more similar than humans and primates. Yeah, they're similar in comparison to other things and they share a history, but they evolved into different things.

BTW, I am very against classifying moves as "Judo techniques/ sambo techniques". There is only Judo strategy, sambo strategy, bjj strategy, etc.

 

[Rod1]

My current BJJ instructor was a Judo trainer at Kyoto University. He has contacts down there and when the students of his friends make a trip to Tokyo sometimes we play under Kosen rules. Kosen is very distinctive. They roll like all the Judo guys (I've done Judo all over the place for a long time.) I've ever rolled with. Wierder still, is my instructor has experience with Kosen rules, opted to focus on BJJ and get his black belt, and than began teaching BJJ to his considerably older Judo teacher (who is experienced with Kosen rules) and eventually gave his own Judo sensei a blackbelt in BJJ. Kosen and BJJ are no more similar than humans and primates. Yeah, they're similar in comparison to other things and they share a history, but they evolved into different things.

BTW, I am very against classifying moves as "Judo techniques/ sambo techniques". There is only Judo strategy, sambo strategy, bjj strategy, etc.

There is a big difference between training and competing, i find it weird about your history and im aware of things that you normally don't see in Judo schools but in my experience the training is pretty much the same.

Maybe we could start with what's exactly the difference between judo newaza and BJJ, sure in competition there will be disparity on the rules, but in training, what's the difference?

drilling, specific randori (pass guard, defend guard etc etc) and general randori (starting on knees, submission only), pretty much what i trained in judo i trained in BJJ, with the techniques diverging a little.

 

[nefti]

if you search Doughbelly, he is a very experienced judoka who trained with the elite of japan and the elite of S. Korea. He trained in multiple dojos and universities in japan and his experience is completely different than what these guys say.

 

[nefti]

There is a big difference between training and competing, i find it weird about your history and im aware of things that you normally don't see in Judo schools but in my experience the training is pretty much the same.

Maybe we could start with what's exactly the difference between judo newaza and BJJ, sure in competition there will be disparity on the rules, but in training, what's the difference?

drilling, specific randori (pass guard, defend guard etc etc) and general randori (starting on knees, submission only), pretty much what i trained in judo i trained in BJJ, with the techniques diverging a little.

the difference would be this: What % of judo dojos around the world do newaza like bjj? I can tell you that 99% of judo guys i spoke to in korea (and some were extremely high lvl ones) said that what they did is nothing like bjj. Also my training in korea was nothing like bjj.

It's like saying Judo stand up and bjj stand up is the samething. No no one in their right minds would say that.