What in JJJ did the Gracies change to create BJJ?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by oxcart, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. oxcart

    oxcart Ambαssαdor of kwan

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    I know the story - that parts of JJJ required too much strength so they were modified. But does anyone have specific examples of the JJJ vs BJJ equivalent positions/throws/subs etc?

    Thanks in advance,
    Ox.
     
  2. kodokan

    kodokan Purple Belt

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    The difference is that JJJ is primarily an art form that focuses on evading or blocking an attack while standing up, and using that to set up another technique, so it really isnt just "all ground" like BJJ is.
    During JJJ training you will stand and trade punches and try to block or parry that punch in order to counter it with another technique. They also use alot of different wrist locks and pressure points to inflict pain
    As an example of a technique that might be used, a defender will deflect a punch to the fast and redirect it downwards. They will then turn their body away while holding to pull the attacker forward before turning back toward their assailant and twisting their wrist inwards, inflicting pain and diffusing the attack. This technique is called “Kote Gaeshi” or quite simply, “Wrist Twist.

    BJJ, as we all know, is strictily focused on the ground. You learn few takedowns, and alot of submissions and controlling moves, but it revolves around the ground and how to subdue your opponent with moves on the ground.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
  3. Nickynoneck

    Nickynoneck Purple Belt

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    The gracies where taught judo not japanese jiu jitsu, I know the difference in some cases is all a blur but the gracies where taught judo and they worked from there on there own .
    The man that taught them also crossed trained on the fly by having bloody vale tudo / wrestling matches / and even prostyle wrestling he obviously had to change his style to compete in such different styles .
     
  4. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    Positional hierarchy on the ground is the most important change. The old school techniques are very basic techniques, and present in just about every sub grappling art. That said, absolutely no one on this board is qualified to answer beyond this, because we weren't around. Judo and BJJ both have an armbar from the "guard" position. Did Helio teach if differently from the way it was being done at the time? We don't know. We don't know if he added some new details or what. The key difference was the strategy imo. As far as tactics, very hard to say.
     
  5. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    There were a ton of different japanese jiu jitsus. Some of them looked like judo. Some of them looked like karate. some of them looked like bjj. The truth is both bjj and judo could have been considered JJJ at one point.

    The difference between BJJ and other grapling arts is not the moves. You can find armbars in a lot of different arts and you can find the guard in a lot of different arts. Thats not unique.

    Like SSR said it is about positional heirachy. Before bjj no grappling art that I knew of considered back control a really really dominant position. A lot of grappling arts have rear naked chokes but before bjj they didnt really teach a bunch of ways to get the back and maintain the position.

    A lot of grappling arts have armbars from mount, but none of them (as far as I know) emphasized getting full mount instead of sidemount because of the punching potential. These things made bjj unique and are so useful that most grappling arts have to at least acknowledge the concept of positional heiarchy, ie; taking the back, getting full mount, recovering guard, not trying a submission when in your opponents guard, etc.
     
  6. navita

    navita Orange Belt

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    Exactly right, Komi was a judo competitor, and black belt. For the longest time the Gracies only did judo. It began to evolve when the gracies focused more on the ground game, newaza, than on the standing game. The techniques started to change, it was less about cleanliness and the ippon, and more about getting it done and adapting to the fight. The techniques evolved, the game evolved. You can still see the validity of training judo to supplement your bjj game,but bjj now is more of a mix of wrestling and judo.

    my father would be so proud of me right now.... his little bjj purple belt talking like a judoka... lol (my dad is a judo brown belt this shit runs in the family)
     
  7. Rado

    Rado Blue Belt

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    Well, the reason that BJJ is very different from JJJ is because BJJ didn't come from JJJ. BJJ came from Judo, sort of speaking. The thing is that back then the term Judo had not been created by Kano yet and it was still called Kano Jiu-Jitsu. Then later on after Judo had been introduced in Brazil as Jiu-Jitsu, the name changed to Judo in Japan but the Brazilians continued to use the term Jiu-Jitsu. With time Judo evolved in a different direction and today it doesn't have a lot to do with that traditional form of "Judo" that Maeda taught the Brazilians. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu also changed and evolved as developed by the Gracies. So you could say Judo and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (all BJJ is Gracie anyways, whatever Rorion will allow the use of the name or not) came from the same art, which is Kano Jiu-Jitsu.
     
  8. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    I hate this sentiment

    Even the oldest JJJ manuals you can found would have pretty much the same principles behind the techniques, look at the curriculum. what strength based submission do people think people were doing?

    JJJ/TJJ is very much technique based on leverage, off balancing and so on.

    the myth about Helio being so frail that he changed the techniques makes JJJ/judo out to be something it is not.

    Kano and most of the original judo players were even smaller and frailer then Helio ffs

    Not taking anything away from GJJ, they changed the tactics/strategy and got damn frekkin good at what they did, but the principles of the techniques is still the same.
     
  9. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    All BJJ is not Gracie. You should look up the Fadda's.
     
  10. laohu69

    laohu69 Blue Belt

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    IMO this is the correct answer.
    I'm fairly new to grappling (about 4 or 5 years in JJJ, Judo & currently BJJ) but I've trained for a long time in stand up arts (& have a handful of blackbelts)- I started in 1972. The philosophy is what differs one art from another. There are a limited number of ways to throw a punch / kick / block / choke someone / armbar / etc. It is how it is implemented & what is given priority that makes the systems different- since they all use the same basic mechanics.
     
  11. td82394

    td82394 Brown Belt

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    As someone already pointed out, the Gracies learned Judo, not JJJ. JJJ incorporates strikes and disarmament. BJJ is more like the martial art form of Judo with all the throws taken out.
     
  12. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I would like to add to my previous post that I'm not saying strategy is the only reason that the positional hierarchy is a significant change. BJJ being a ground-based art, perhaps more than 50% of the techniques involve positional work, including techniques to advance position, escape bad ones, sweep, and maintain position. So as the Gracies implemented their positional hierarchy, BJJ ground technique developed more sophistication with techniques dealing with positional advancement. When Helio was first teaching, the main pass they showed was the "Gracie Gift" which almost puts you in the triangle. But that was the main technique at the time in Maeda's judo for getting past the guard (or body scissors if you will). Several practitioners over the years developed and modified techniques for passing, mounting, sweeps, and escapes. (Yes, I'm aware that if you go through the old Judo books you will see many of these techniques as well. I've seen the same pictures and videos as you. If this applies to you, then you're missing my point.)

    So there are real technical differences that evolved as a consequence of the different ground strategy. But the root of those technical developments was the positional hierarchy.
     
  13. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    I haven't done any self defense in BJJ, just sport, but neither have I done much of the self defense kata

    would wager that more bjjers have done the self defense thing then judokas having practised much Kime no Kata

    but there is a "kata-scene"




    very similar IMO
     
  14. Stun Gun

    Stun Gun Green Belt

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    Exactly. Maeda is a judoka
     
  15. Rado

    Rado Blue Belt

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    Yeah, I know about Fadda, Franca etc. But honestly, specially outside of Brazil, how many schools are there which did not come from the Gracie side?
     
  16. navita

    navita Orange Belt

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    gracie jiu jitsu is more of a marketing ploy, brazilian jiu jitsu, is the wide based name coming from the ground fighting we do. hell eddie bravo calls his 10th planet. it's all jiu jitsu, it's all based off what was first taught. oh and if you talk to most people who's lineage traces to carlson gracie Sr. it's brazilian jiu jitsu. That fun litle family feud has made some pretty big names almost anti gracie....


    Actually my boyfriend, is a black belt under a fadda black belt... there are plenty of them out there....
     
  17. DiscipleOfPog

    DiscipleOfPog Green Belt

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    I think a lot of it had to do with being open to ideas and allowing students to spar freely. If you take some basic ideas from Judo and allow students to spar openly for hours, you're gonna discover news ways of advancing position and submitting.

    I don't know if the Gracies actually sat down and said "ok let's do this instead of this," I think better ways to do things were learned through rolling.
     
  18. CajunJudoka

    CajunJudoka Judo Brown BJJ Brown

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    It's good to see there is somebody else out there that doesn't have their head up a Gracie's ass.
     
  19. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    In all fairness, you're probably one of the more biased people on the Grappling forum. Sure, there is plenty of propaganda out there, most notably coming from Rorion's family, and unfortunately many people buy into it, but this is like Paul Daley calling someone a bad sport.
     
  20. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    That's debateable. Maeda was almost a contemporary of Kano. He first started training I don't even think "Judo" had a name yet. He did jiu jitsu, which to be honest, could be any combination of things. Olympic rules hadn't been established yet so even if he did do Judo it was very likely it would look fairly different to Judo in a contemporary gym.

    Also, if you find old BJJ vids (like from the 1960s- early 80's) they look very similar, almost identical to the Judo videos of the same era.
     

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