What in JJJ did the Gracies change to create BJJ?

*Judo was previously known as Kano jiu Jitsu, albeit the book lechien references above was not put out with Kano's approval.
*Kosen Judo is a specific rule set, there are no black belts in "Kosen Judo" only Kodokan Black belts who compete under the Kosen rule set. The parallel is No Gi (the art) and ADCC (a specific nogi competition with a specific ruleset).
*Helio was physically bigger than Carlos Sr and certainly bigger than Maeda and other judoka of the time. Any claim he was the small frail brother is marketing/a lie.
*Maeda started at the Kodokan in 1895, 13 years after the Kodokan was opened. In any case Kano was 18 years older than Maeda, so how anyone can claim they were contemporaries is beyond me. Kano didn't even really teach Maeda, Tomita did.
*I think only Carlos Sr (and Luis Franca, Fadda's teacher) were taught directly by Maeda. None of the other 4 Gracie brothers was taught by Maeda.
*By the time Carlos Sr was being taught Judo by Maeda, he would likely have been teaching a blend of judo, boxing and catch wrestling (amongst other things).
*Maeda continued teaching Judo to other Brazilian residents prior to his death.
 
lechien said:
Sorry I did not understand your question.

Are you reffering to the use of the term of Jiu Jitsu instead of Judo or the misspelling Jiu Jitsu to Ju Jutsu?
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I'm reffering to the use of 'other' term to refer to J
 
Rod1 said:
So? there has been arguing between JIGORO KANO and the "Kosen Judo" over the rules and the emphasis in newaza, in 1983 Tokyo university tried to move Kosen Judo rules towards towards the IJF or Kodokan approved rules and Kyoto university which produces the best kosen judokas prevented it Kosen Judo was cancelled for over 3 years because of that dispute.

And the reason they point out is because they want to preserve newaza domination in Kosen judo, i can provide the words of 10th dans promoting as much as 50/50 newaza judo even though Kano said that a 70/30 should be the norm. Thinking that judo is some kind of monolith is a joke, you can have disagreeing 6+ dans.

The hell in judoforum you have people arguing about blue judogis when Anton Geesink A 10TH FREAKING DAN himself supported them.

Judoforum is filled with a lot of elitism.
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Your reference to Geesink just show me your lack of knowledge in judo history.

Geesink say a lot of stupidity about judo...

Anyway, it's ok with me. Like J Sho said, find me one 'Kosen judo bb'. It doesnt exist, they are Kodokan bb doing judo without ijf rules and they put more emphasys on newaza.
 
navita said:
gracie jiu jitsu is more of a marketing ploy, brazilian jiu jitsu, is the wide based name coming from the ground fighting we do. hell eddie bravo calls his 10th planet. it's all jiu jitsu, it's all based off what was first taught. oh and if you talk to most people who's lineage traces to carlson gracie Sr. it's brazilian jiu jitsu. That fun litle family feud has made some pretty big names almost anti gracie....


Actually my boyfriend, is a black belt under a fadda black belt... there are plenty of them out there....
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Plenty? I'm not sure about that. What's the percentage worldwide?

But you are right. It's all based on what was first taught. But not all Judo taught to Brazilians by Maeda became BJJ, specially not BJJ as we know it today. BJJ is not Judo or even the same Judo (Jiu-Jitsu) that Maeda taught. Did Fadda develop Maeda's style too or he just carried it way and kept on teaching Maeda's style? If so, is it really accurate to say Fadda Jiu-Jitsu is BJJ as we know it today? Did Fadda got involved in Vale Tudo, which definitely influenced the development of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu? If Fadda developed his Jiu-Jitsu separately from the Gracies, is his end result what is taught today around the world or is it the Gracie's? The thing is, when we think of BJJ today we think of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and not any other style of Jiu-Jitsu that comes out of Brazil.
Also, is it said that Fadda evolved totally independent of the Gracies? Specially to this day and given the influence of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu I find it hard that it haven't absorbed something from the other side. But it's a moot point anyway. If not all BJJ is Gracie, let's be generous and say 95% is. Internationally probably more like 99.9%.
Lastly, the only reason we are talking about BJJ here is because of the Gracies, not Fadda, Franca or even Maeda! I find it interesting when now, that BJJ has left Brazil and became an intentional phenomenon, everybody want in in the bandwagon and people are so quick to diminish the people who extensively developed it, brought it to public attention in Brazil, brought it out of Brazil and made it a household word internationally.
 
nefti said:
the difference would be this: What % of judo dojos around the world do newaza like bjj? I can tell you that 99% of judo guys i spoke to in korea (and some were extremely high lvl ones) said that what they did is nothing like bjj. Also my training in korea was nothing like bjj.

It's like saying Judo stand up and bjj stand up is the samething. No no one in their right minds would say that.
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Again, explain what its "judo like BJJ", if i apply he same strategy im doing Judo like BJJ, even if the techniques are not entirely similar, if someone uses his wrestling background when doing BJJ is he doing wrestling or BJJ?

BJJ as all MAs orbit around a principle, an overall strategy, which is advancing position to maximize one's strength while minimizing the opponent's (BJJ, Theory and Practice by Renzo Gracie).

This same principle i was taught in judo newaza, even though the techniques may not have been exactly the same, i trained all aspects in judo, guardwork, sweeps, backwork etc etc.

If anything that i could say this i never trained its halfguard work, we learned a few sweeps but we were not encouraged as it was almost osaekomi.

Maybe we see martial arts on a different way, i see them as guidelines you see them as a bunch of moves.

I am also wondering as well. Rod1, have you train in Japan?
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No, i haven't, considering my third world country paycheck i would have to spend about 3 months of wage just to pay for the plane ticket, i had a good run with college team about traveling but never to japan. Why so interested? intending to pull an ad hominem.
 
*Kosen Judo is a specific rule set, there are no black belts in "Kosen Judo" only Kodokan Black belts who compete under the Kosen rule set. The parallel is No Gi (the art) and ADCC (a specific nogi competition with a specific ruleset).
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_Glorfindel_ said:
Your reference to Geesink just show me your lack of knowledge in judo history.

Geesink say a lot of stupidity about judo...

Anyway, it's ok with me. Like J Sho said, find me one 'Kosen judo bb'. It doesnt exist, they are Kodokan bb doing judo without ijf rules and they put more emphasys on newaza.
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-I would rather follow Geesink stupidity than having me said that Kata Guruma its not true judo anymore, and this is to start a few, my point is that judo its not the ten commandments, its not written in stone.

Oda Tsunetane was a 10th dan Kodokan, what's your excuse there?

- I never said that Kosen Judo was a different type of judo with its own ranks, i said it spawned completely different judokas than what Kodokan was giving. And that they did dominated the scene through newaza, this cannot be denied.

Why did the rules were changed in 1925 to prevent newaza? what did Kano and the officials at Kyoto argued for 2 days? 2 straigth days of arguing over what you say its not a big deal? why did Kosen competition was cancelled for 3 years over changing the rules of Kosen judo?

Saying that Kosen judo with emphasis on newaza which forces students (who want to win) to improve newaza and have a different strategy won't improve newaza its kidding.

The hell only a few select countries are allowed to rank in the Kodokan over politics does that means that countries not eligible are not true judoka? certainly a lot at judoforum would say so.
 
Rod1 said:
-I would rather follow Geesink stupidity than having me said that Kata Guruma its not true judo anymore, and this is to start a few, my point is that judo its not the ten commandments, its not written in stone.

Go complain to IJF...IJF and Sport Judo are not Kodokan Judo...

Oda Tsunetane was a 10th dan Kodokan, what's your excuse there?

- I never said that Kosen Judo was a different type of judo with its own ranks, i said it spawned completely different judokas than what Kodokan was giving. And that they did dominated the scene through newaza, this cannot be denied.

Why did the rules were changed in 1925 to prevent newaza? what did Kano and the officials at Kyoto argued for 2 days? 2 straigth days of arguing over what you say its not a big deal? why did Kosen competition was cancelled for 3 years over changing the rules of Kosen judo?

Saying that Kosen judo with emphasis on newaza which forces students (who want to win) to improve newaza and have a different strategy won't improve newaza its kidding.

??? When did i say such thing?? Sure people from Kosen/university are better on the ground, but they are simply doing Kodokan j
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Presumably Kano wanted to prevent people with decent hikikomi stifling the growth of his style and totally dominating competition henceforth.

Arguably sports BJJ is the natural evolutionary outcome if you take judo and then remove 2 of the three 'total' match winning options (Ippon throw, Ippon Pin, Ippon Submission), remove timelimits for newaza activity and permit hikikomi and similar actions (e.g. guard pulling & throwing).
 
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He mentions this in Mind Over Muscle, but haven't read it in a while. I'm sure there are other sources. The physical education component and "defense agaisnt attack" components of Judo would be compromised. As I mentioned earlier, you see a lot of people saying how they wouldn't pull guard in a street fight. Which I agree is often a bad idea, unless Mike Tyson or someone similar is bearing down on you. Pulling guard works better with rules, especially if they exclude headbutts. So pulling guard in a sense is protected in the same way tachiwaza is--by rules.
 
oxcart said:
I know the story - that parts of JJJ required too much strength so they were modified. But does anyone have specific examples of the JJJ vs BJJ equivalent positions/throws/subs etc?

Thanks in advance,
Ox.
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In short, they got rid of most of the striking, they changed a lot of techniques to prevent escapes, especially leglocks, and emphasized more on transitions, ah yes, they added the compression aspect (bicep slicers for instance) and worked more on back control.

I've had the chance to roll with a few TJJ guys, traditionnal jiu jitsu is still taught more than bjj in France, and a long time friend of mine, that I rolled with yesterday in fact is a brown belt in judo and JJJ, very interesting to roll with him. Far closer than rolling with a judoka.
 
lechien said:
that was Kara Te in Okinawa. local farmers taught each other Karate (empty hand) versus the Samurais which were the muscle guys of the Japanese warlords who invaded their land.

Okinawa was not Japanese at the time.


JJJ is the terms that covers every MA in Japan. The idea was that JJJ was used by samurais once they lost their swords.

I do not think JJJ was taught to peasants.

After WW2, the Americans banned any forms of Nationalistic movements i.e MA. So Kano promoted his Judo as not a Martial art but a sport instead.

Lot of JJJ schools which were frequented by young nationalistics were closed down or had to go underground due to political pressure.
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Some of this post is information that Patrick McCarthy has researched extensively.

Because of lack of indisputable evidence on some points, there has been a great deal of conjecture. Evidently many records were destroyed due to bombings in WWII. But consensus among many of the "experts" is being reached on certain points.

One good example is that the time when the term karate-do ( empty hand way) was decided upon as the "official" name, is now known. In 1936 the Ryukyu Shinposha (Ryukyu newspaper company) sponsored a meeting of the Okinawan Karate masters, the transcript of which is available. Karate-do was commonly called Toudi(Chinese hand)-jutsu. And more specifically Shuri-te, Naha-te, and Tomari-te. But most students seeking instruction would just use the term te (hand). It was at that meeting that the term Karate-do was agreed upon.

Concerning the pre-Meiji era peasant class developing Okinawan weapons and empty-handed combative traditions: Research has determined that "the suppositions can no longer support the weight of serious consideration".

There is better evidence that the Keimochi (upper class with chronicled lineage) were perforce practicing Chinese quanfa (which may have come from the older qinna) when weapons were outlawed. They picked it up during protracted liaison with the middle kingdom (China) in the feudal era. The pechin (middle ranked subordinates of the Ryukyu king) later adopted forms of it for domestic law enforcement.
 
After WW2, the Americans banned any forms of Nationalistic movements i.e MA. So Kano promoted his Judo as not a Martial art but a sport instead.
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Kano did not lived to see WW2, but its true Kano was already an Olympic commite member and lobbying to make Judo an olympic event. He was heavily against the militarization of judo and MAs, so much that there are rumours that he was poisoned.
 
Calibur said:
All BJJ is not Gracie. You should look up the Fadda's.
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The story of the Fadda not being Gracie is a lie, this has already been proven. So yes, "All BJJ is Gracie". I understand that this is old and maybe it's not what the commenter believes anymore but it doesn't hurt to correct it in case someone finds the thread nowadays.

The Catch Wrestling in BJJ (@the_catch_wrestling_in_bjj) • Fotos e vídeos do Instagram

There is of course also the positions hierarchy as was already said, it makes bjj fundamentally different from any other art but Luta Livre Brasileira. But something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned as much as it should is the No Gi wrestling Taparia training. This is definitely a change that the Gracies made to the JJJ (Judo) they had access to.

This is in the 90s, there are older videos too, from as far as the 50s.
The Catch Wrestling in BJJ (@the_catch_wrestling_in_bjj) • Fotos e vídeos do Instagram
 
oxcart said:
What in JJJ did the Gracies change to create BJJ?.
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They had the balls to put their art to the test over and over when others hid in their dojos talking about tradition and death touches. And during the process, they refined the effectiveness of their art to the point where it was unmatched by any other. Undeniable effectiveness in a fight against a bigger, stronger, faster opponent. Then in 1993, they unleashed it on the world causing a shift in the global martial arts community like no other art has done before or after.

That's what they changed. Everything. At least as it relates to martial arts.

Now people like to stand on their shoulders and say their contribution was nothing. Shameful.

Their names will be etched in history. Their detractors won't even be footnotes.
 
JustSomeGuy said:
They had the balls to put their art to the test over and over when others hid in their dojos talking about tradition and death touches. And during the process, they refined the effectiveness of their art to the point where it was unmatched by any other. Undeniable effectiveness in a fight against a bigger, stronger, faster opponent. Then in 1993, they unleashed it on the world causing a shift in the global martial arts community like no other art has done before or after.

That's what they changed. Everything. At least as it relates to martial arts.

Now people like to stand on their shoulders and say their contribution was nothing. Shameful.

Their names will be etched in history. Their detractors won't even be footnotes.
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ROFL. Who is they? Royce and Rickson were solid but not great. Others like Carlos Jr are trash. I'm a whole hater out here and my name is in the history books carved in blood. Biggest brawl in US history. Fuck a Gracie.
 
Os3y3ris said:
ROFL. Who is they? Royce and Rickson were solid but not great. Others like Carlos Jr are trash. I'm a whole hater out here and my name is in the history books carved in blood. Biggest brawl in US history. Fuck a Gracie.
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What's your name? What brawl?
 
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