What has BKFC taught us about boxing as a self defence art?

[TheMaster]

I'm sorry but I don't buy it.
No disrespect to you as you're only repeating a story but it sounds like bollocks to me. For once thing, it seems like almost every such account features a mysterious "Russian boxer who's 6'5" 250 lbs" yet this poor guy is never named but apparently he always loses these unverified challenge matches against martial artists of various disciplines. LOL.

According to info the boxers name was Giko and he visited Hong Kong from Russia, the fight organized by a local HK newspaper that organized alot of these matches.

Of course it will be hard to verify now as these are not televised bouts and thus it is similar to the rep of all old time gypsy bareknuckle fighters or frankly any old time boxer.
Are you equally skeptical of someone like John L Sullivan's mainly undocumented fights or do you think they are largely bullshit also?
The sources will be in Cantonese as he didnt speak English. WSL was also not one to brag or exaggerate. He never for example took advantage to be cited as Bruce Lees main instructor (since Yip Man in reality refused to directly teach eurasians).

(Very interesting long article here for those interested written by WSL talking about his relationship with his student Bruce Lee)
http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/wslbl.htm

There is also one documented loss by WSL which he never denied which occurred however in a limited rule tournament match with gloves not a bareknuckle fight.

There is a bit more info here about his barefist matches
https://www.wingchunnews.ca/wong-shun-leung/

 

[sweetviolenturg]

According to info the boxers name was Giko and he visited Hong Kong from Russia, the fight organized by a local HK newspaper that organized alot of these matches.

Of course it will be hard to verify now as these are not televised bouts and thus it is similar to the rep of all old time gypsy bareknuckle fighters or frankly any old time boxer.
Are you equally skeptical of someone like John L Sullivan's mainly undocumented fights or do you think they are largely bullshit also?
The sources will be in Cantonese as he didnt speak English. WSL was also not one to brag or exaggerate. He never for example took advantage to be cited as Bruce Lees main instructor (since Yip Man in reality refused to directly teach eurasians).
There is also one documented loss by WSL which he never denied which occurred however in a limited rule tournament match with gloves not a bareknuckle fight.

There is a bit more info here
https://www.wingchunnews.ca/wong-shun-leung/

Why would I doubt Sullivan's fights? The bulk of them have been verified by eye witness accounts, artist's renderings, photographs, contemporary newspapers, etc.. He has a body of work that has been documented in great detail.
No such evidence exists of the match-up between WSL & "Giko" to my knowledge. Could a Russian boxer visited Hong Kong & fought WSL? Anything's possible but why would there be no photographic evidence?
I'm also highly skeptical because when it comes to Gung Fu, the Chinese have been known to resort to great amounts of hyperbole to further the notion that it & its practitioners are invincible.

 

[SHAOLINMONK420]

wing chun sucks for mma

 

[TheMaster]

Why would I doubt Sullivan's fights? The bulk of them have been verified by eye witness accounts, artist's renderings, photographs, contemporary newspapers, etc.. He has a body of work that has been documented in great detail.
No such evidence exists of the match-up between WSL & "Giko" to my knowledge. Could a Russian boxer visited Hong Kong & fought WSL? Anything's possible but why would there be no photographic evidence?
I'm also highly skeptical because when it comes to Gung Fu, the Chinese have been known to resort to great amounts of hyperbole to further the notion that it & its practitioners are invincible.

Eyewitness accounts and newspaper reports - the same evidence as for many of WSL fights.
The difference being his occured in the 1950's and 60's not the late 1800's....

It is your conditioned cultural bias, no more. If you have that view then you are forced to accept that many of Sullivan's barefist fights especially earlier on may be considered just unverified hearsay and likely to be bullshit or exaggeration. What evidence do we have? Very little outside of his more documented later career.

The fact is, there are many old time bareknuckle and gypsy boxers whos rep we go on with far lesser documentation than WSL fights and the fight he had with Giko.

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Eyewitness accounts and newspaper reports - the same evidence as for many of WSL fights.
The difference being his occured in the 1950's and 60's not the late 1800's....

It is your conditioned cultural bias, no more. If you have that view then you are forced to accept that many of Sullivan's barefist fights especially earlier on may be considered just unverified hearsay and likely to be bullshit or exaggeration. What evidence do we have? Very little outside of his more documented later career.

The fact is, there are many old time bareknuckle and gypsy boxers whos rep we go on with far lesser documentation than WSL fights and the fight he had with Giko.

OK. I'll accept the WSL fight with "Giko" as fact as soon as I see a photo or film of this fight.
Show me a photo of WSL standing next to a 6'5" Russian for that matter & I'll give credit that "Giko" did, in fact, exist. Until then I'll remain skeptical.

 

[TheMaster]

OK. I'll accept the WSL fight with "Giko" as fact as soon as I see a photo or film of this fight.
Show me a photo of WSL standing next to a 6'5" Russian for that matter & I'll give credit that "Giko" did, in fact, exist. Until then I'll remain skeptical.

Well then like I said, from the same persective of yours the majority of the bare knuckle records of gypsy boxers and old time bare knuckle fighters like Paddy Ryan and Sullivan as well, who have less evidence in many cases for the bulk of their fights and perhaps more likely the result of exaggerated myth telling, are equally questionable and much earlier in history for which we have no video evidence and very few pictures.

Thank God that people over the course of history did not have attitudes like yours, otherwise the multidudes of martial arts traditions that we have as passed down to us and that evolved into their present forms, might never have existed

 

[JoshTehV]

Seems that bareknuckle is a good testing ground for the art 'as a self defence style' and how well it translates when the gloves are off.



The other thing that comes to mind is palm heels are legit without gloves (think Bas Rutten).

I'm not just referring to Malinaggi being embarrassed by a journey man and looking panicked when clinched by Lobov, even tho only fists were allowed.

I actually would love to see a proper, trained and conditioned Wing Chun guy do BK, I think it can work well under BKFC rules.

Or a top level Kyokushinkai enter would smash guys also I think.

So what are thoughts on how the 'sweet science' looks through the lens of BK when the gloves are off?

dog you got a 2002 start date, wing chun is dim son

 

[SandisLL]

Well, it is quite doubtful that a pure boxer without another additional training will agree do fight where kicks are allowed, not alone grappling too.
-
Let's consider that he is journeyman.
Opinions about journeyman in forums usually are wrong.
Starting with that not all are bad boxers, they just didn't had luck.
Medium level journeyman is dangerous boxer not a bum.
Low level journeyman isn't a bum.
--
In europe there is some pricing for journeymans, depending how dangerous they are, what is their ranking position etc etc, plenty of factors.
a bum is lower than lowest level journeyman.
If a bum, even better = high demand, if he does have licence not suspended.
-
Why for a bum is worth to allow chop legs, if managers are calling and offer him bouts where nobody kicks him?

dog you got a 2002 start date,

Yes, Sir.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...without-using-grappling-for-fighting.4014877/

 

[Blake_UK]

Well then like I said, from the same persective of yours the majority of the bare knuckle records of gypsy boxers and old time bare knuckle fighters like Paddy Ryan and Sullivan as well, who have less evidence in many cases for the bulk of their fights and perhaps more likely the result of exaggerated myth telling, are equally questionable and much earlier in history for which we have no video evidence and very few pictures.

Thank God that people over the course of history did not have attitudes like yours, otherwise the multidudes of martial arts traditions that we have as passed down to us and that evolved into their present forms, might never have existed

The difference is where there is exaggeration/myths in prizefighting it is around the fighters and their prowess not the art of boxing itself. Yes there are different styles and tactics but the core principles are essentially the same. Boxers fought boxers under boxing rules. The question of boxers vs wrestlers (an interesting one down the years which wrestlers usually won) or Savate etc was different and is not claimed in the same way.

The various mythical Kung Fu stories are about that particular form of KF besting every other style - something that hasn't been reproduced.
And as for lack of evidence how come there is so much evidence for the proponents of Jujitsu/Judo who most definitely toured western countries throughout the 19th century and fought against various wrestlers (and some boxers) and often won. The early popularity and establishment of different forms of jujitsu throughout the west is precisely because it proved itself in the ring in front of an audience, and adapted itself when needed (eg Judo, BJJ etc). Kung Fu has never done that and in many ways continues to resist change.

There is some great stuff on bloody elbow about the history of cross-pollination of MAs pre-WW2 if anyone is interested:

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/1/21/1946288/the-forgotten-golden-age-of-mixed-martial-arts-part-2

 

[SandisLL]

Boxers fought boxers under boxing rules.

Yes, because if professional do bout in his art, his price depends from his rankings and plenty of other factors.
It is very doubtful that for example a boxer that does have position at least in boxrec in top 150 and not last place in pro rankings in his country, will agree to do pro KB bout for 1, 2 or 3 or even 4 k GBP.
---
If we have a guy that does beat very hard, not likely that to find for him a journeyman in UK for 3 k GBP will be easy.
At least in U.S most likely for 8,5 - 9 k $ there is solution for him. Cos he does beat very hard.

The early popularity and establishment of different forms of jujitsu throughout the west is precisely because it proved itself in the ring in front of an audience, and adapted itself when needed (eg Judo, BJJ etc).

Well, there I think first Judo and JJ in europe was in U.K and France and these masters were friendly and yes, they grappled and didn't insisted that their art is only one solution for self defense.
Plenty of them didn't had been challenged because they already grappled and were respectful and friendly.

 

[ironkhan57]

Well then like I said, from the same persective of yours the majority of the bare knuckle records of gypsy boxers and old time bare knuckle fighters like Paddy Ryan and Sullivan as well, who have less evidence in many cases for the bulk of their fights and perhaps more likely the result of exaggerated myth telling, are equally questionable and much earlier in history for which we have no video evidence and very few pictures.

Thank God that people over the course of history did not have attitudes like yours, otherwise the multidudes of martial arts traditions that we have as passed down to us and that evolved into their present forms, might never have existed

Right. Everybody is ignorant and bias except you. Lol. Hey i might be goin to thailand in the summer i believe. If you want we can meet up over there? Or maybe i can take a trip to your country (except china im sorry until ik corona is not spreading the most over there i will not consider it im deadass)?

 

[sweetviolenturg]

Well then like I said, from the same persective of yours the majority of the bare knuckle records of gypsy boxers and old time bare knuckle fighters like Paddy Ryan and Sullivan as well, who have less evidence in many cases for the bulk of their fights and perhaps more likely the result of exaggerated myth telling, are equally questionable and much earlier in history for which we have no video evidence and very few pictures.

Thank God that people over the course of history did not have attitudes like yours, otherwise the multidudes of martial arts traditions that we have as passed down to us and that evolved into their present forms, might never have existed

I'm sorry but comparing the well-documented ring records of fighters like Paddy Ryan & Sullivan to the "closed-door" matches that are claimed by so many Gung Fu men is a ridiculous stretch.

 

[TheMaster]

I'm sorry but comparing the well-documented ring records of fighters like Paddy Ryan & Sullivan to the "closed-door" matches that are claimed by so many Gung Fu men is a ridiculous stretch.

Not at all for the bulk of their careers. They are both filled with countless 'touring fights' against 'all comers' in different towns and numerous claims of challenge fights long before they became acclaimed and had fewer more well publicized contests. Many of the early claimed fights by Ryan and Sullivan can be dismissed as just unsubstantiated heresay and exaggeration in the same way and have often less records than the more modern day beimo matches.

In fact Paddy Ryan has only 10 fights that are considered 'legit' without these other bouts.
The others are hardly 'substantiated' by recognized standards.
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/ryan-p.htm

Vs Frank Glover (2w 2 l) Sep 13
"Police Gazette (Oct 2 1886 p 10) reports that Ryan arranged for police to stop the fight if he was losing; It was possibly stopped during round 1 or just after; The bout was fought on a boat in the rain"


Even the fights themselves in those days of '90 minutes, 87 round fights' are difficult to reconcile with today's standards and types of fighting.

In fact this is an interesting issue in itself. WSL was known for finishing most of his fights including Giko within a very short timespan of often a few seconds.

So we have one type of bareknuckle fighting lasting 90 minutes sometimes
And another type of bareknuckle from HK with bouts lasting more in line of what we would expect of a few minutes or even seconds including against foreign fighters.
I would say a different style and approach to combat.
In fact I am interested to see, judging even by today's low level BK fights how exactly they were fighting and punching for the fights to go that long in old time US bareknuckle.

The difference is where there is exaggeration/myths in prizefighting it is around the fighters and their prowess not the art of boxing itself. Yes there are different styles and tactics but the core principles are essentially the same. Boxers fought boxers under boxing rules. The question of boxers vs wrestlers (an interesting one down the years which wrestlers usually won) or Savate etc was different and is not claimed in the same way.

The various mythical Kung Fu stories are about that particular form of KF besting every other style - something that hasn't been reproduced.
And as for lack of evidence how come there is so much evidence for the proponents of Jujitsu/Judo who most definitely toured western countries throughout the 19th century and fought against various wrestlers (and some boxers) and often won. The early popularity and establishment of different forms of jujitsu throughout the west is precisely because it proved itself in the ring in front of an audience, and adapted itself when needed (eg Judo, BJJ etc). Kung Fu has never done that and in many ways continues to resist change.

There is some great stuff on bloody elbow about the history of cross-pollination of MAs pre-WW2 if anyone is interested:

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/1/21/1946288/the-forgotten-golden-age-of-mixed-martial-arts-part-2

Wing Chun was a relatively unknown and small style that only came to light with the geberal public with Yip Man and Bruce Lee.

Further it is very much a martial art first- combat efficiency to finish a fight as soon as possible not a combat spectator sport.
It was never practiced on anywhere near the scale of boxing, wrestling or Judo as a combat sport with thousands of competitiors to warrant that comparison.

So we have a smaller sample but what we do have from the records of WSL is a modern day fighting history of it's effectiveness that cannot be dismissed just because the bulk of it's modern practicioners are out of shape guys who don't spar or fight.

Same as comparing Machida with the average point karate fighter. Same style but totally different training methodology gets different results.

 

[TheMaster]

So the larger parts have been missing ever since it was established. It was incomplete even back then, there's a lot missing, even comparative to other Kung Fu styles, and it shows

Ironic that you say this also,since your description applies almost exactly to modern boxing, a very limited and reduced form of what the original style was supposed to be.

James Figg was the first modern western bareknuckle fighting champion.

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/james-figg-first-bare-knuckle-boxing-champion



But the 'boxing' he did was a much more complete form of martial fighting system including grappling, throwing, and kicking.
It even included weapons training and some bouts were fought with swords which is where the boxing/fencing association comes. MMA actually allows to an extent the rediscovery of what boxing was originally supposed to be.

It is supremly ironic that u use a limited reduced style like modern gloved boxing to criticize a system like WC, when in essence it is preserving the heritage of systems like old school BK fighting and just waiting to be brought back to life through competitions, in the way mma is slowly independently rediscovering many of the methods of old time boxing also.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Ironic that you say this also,since your description applies almost exactly to modern boxing, a very limited and reduced form of what the original style was supposed to be.

James Figg was the first modern western bareknuckle fighting champion.

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/james-figg-first-bare-knuckle-boxing-champion



But the 'boxing' he did was a much more complete form of martial fighting system including grappling, throwing, and kicking.
It even included weapons training and some bouts were fought with swords which is where the boxing/fencing association comes. MMA actually allows to an extent the rediscovery of what boxing was originally supposed to be.

It is supremly ironic that u use a limited reduced style like modern gloved boxing to criticize a system like WC, when in essence it is preserving the heritage of systems like old school BK fighting and just waiting to be brought back to life through competitions, in the way mma is slowly independently rediscovering many of the methods of old time boxing also.

It's not ironic at all. Glad my post has been bothering you all this time, though, because it should.

Boxing kept the standup elements and techniques, refined them, added the uppercut, and got rid of the ground fightin, although it kept the basic tie-up. It's a complete standup art, but it's not MMA anymore like it basically was pre-queensbury. Not only that but it kept the larger part of what boxing is. If anyone wants to incorporate the other elements such as hip throw, wrestling and takedowns, those techniques have been well documented and preserved, still are practiced elsewhere to be able to practice/add right back in, today. The parts were written out of the sport but are not lost.

-----

Wing Chun on the other hand, permanently LOST MOST of its STAND UP/STRIKING knowledge and technique. It probably never had a groundwork component to get rid of, and what it lost was the MAJORITY of its own BASIC FUNDAMENTAL CURRICULUM. These techniques were NOT documented and were not preserved elsewhere, most of Wing Chun was and is lost forever as soon as it was established with most of itself missing.

Wing Chun cannot provide a single person who can be competitive in bareknuckle, even though it is practiced bareknuckle and without gloves-- it should in theory be ready to compete in its own basic ruleset, but it can't. Show me a single guy who has done as well as the old washed up, retired, and weak-fisted-even-in-his-prime Paulie. Not a single Wing Chun guy could hang in there, going the distance with Lobov at his prime or otherwise like past-prime Paulie did.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Not at all for the bulk of their careers. They are both filled with countless 'touring fights' against 'all comers' in different towns and numerous claims of challenge fights long before they became acclaimed and had fewer more well publicized contests. Many of the early claimed fights by Ryan and Sullivan can be dismissed as just unsubstantiated heresay and exaggeration in the same way and have often less records than the more modern day beimo matches.

In fact Paddy Ryan has only 10 fights that are considered 'legit' without these other bouts.
The others are hardly 'substantiated' by recognized standards.
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/ryan-p.htm

Vs Frank Glover (2w 2 l) Sep 13
"Police Gazette (Oct 2 1886 p 10) reports that Ryan arranged for police to stop the fight if he was losing; It was possibly stopped during round 1 or just after; The bout was fought on a boat in the rain"


Even the fights themselves in those days of '90 minutes, 87 round fights' are difficult to reconcile with today's standards and types of fighting.

In fact this is an interesting issue in itself. WSL was known for finishing most of his fights including Giko within a very short timespan of often a few seconds.

So we have one type of bareknuckle fighting lasting 90 minutes sometimes
And another type of bareknuckle from HK with bouts lasting more in line of what we would expect of a few minutes or even seconds including against foreign fighters.
I would say a different style and approach to combat.
In fact I am interested to see, judging even by today's low level BK fights how exactly they were fighting and punching for the fights to go that long in old time US bareknuckle.



Wing Chun was a relatively unknown and small style that only came to light with the geberal public with Yip Man and Bruce Lee.

Further it is very much a martial art first- combat efficiency to finish a fight as soon as possible not a combat spectator sport.
It was never practiced on anywhere near the scale of boxing, wrestling or Judo as a combat sport with thousands of competitiors to warrant that comparison.

So we have a smaller sample but what we do have from the records of WSL is a modern day fighting history of it's effectiveness that cannot be dismissed just because the bulk of it's modern practicioners are out of shape guys who don't spar or fight.

Same as comparing Machida with the average point karate fighter. Same style but totally different training methodology gets different results.

It's like comparing boxercise to boxing. Same but totally different. Image the combat effectiveness if everybody did boxercise.

 

[TheMaster]

It's not ironic at all. Glad my post has been bothering you all this time, though, because it should.

Boxing kept the standup elements and techniques, refined them, added the uppercut, and got rid of the ground fightin, although it kept the basic tie-up. It's a complete standup art, but it's not MMA anymore like it basically was pre-queensbury. Not only that but it kept the larger part of what boxing is. If anyone wants to incorporate the other elements such as hip throw, wrestling and takedowns, those techniques have been well documented and preserved, still are practiced elsewhere to be able to practice/add right back in, today. The parts were written out of the sport but are not lost.

-----

Wing Chun on the other hand, permanently LOST MOST of its STAND UP/STRIKING knowledge and technique. It probably never had a groundwork component to get rid of, and what it lost was the MAJORITY of its own BASIC FUNDAMENTAL CURRICULUM. These techniques were NOT documented and were not preserved elsewhere, most of Wing Chun was and is lost forever as soon as it was established with most of itself missing.

Wing Chun cannot provide a single person who can be competitive in bareknuckle, even though it is practiced bareknuckle and without gloves-- it should in theory be ready to compete in its own basic ruleset, but it can't. Show me a single guy who has done as well as the old washed up, retired, and weak-fisted-even-in-his-prime Paulie. Not a single Wing Chun guy could hang in there, going the distance with Lobov at his prime or otherwise like past-prime Paulie did.

Thanks for that longwinded but totally bogus reponse. So boxing lost everything but kept gloved punching (not the same as BK punching) and a weak 'clinch', but that's ok because boxers can learn Judo/Jiu jitsu now. Ok.....
Well same for any WC guy or TMA guy, every nation had a form of wrestling and every standup style can learn Jiu jitsu..so your point is...?
And just LOL at using Malinaggi as an example of anything. He disgraced boxing, and plenty of tough WC and TMA guys would smash the fuck out of him in BK fighting.

It's like comparing boxercise to boxing. Same but totally different. Image the combat effectiveness if everybody did boxercise.

Depends how the individual trains. Do they condition their knuckles punching the wallbag filled with small pieces of stone in boxercise (or even boxing) now as well? Because if I connect with someones face I'm sure their cheekbones will feel it.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

And just LOL at using Malinaggi as an example of anything.

YOU are the one that used him as an example to start this thread. You probably forgot that seeing how you're having difficulty keeping a single coherent line of thought.

Lol at me for taking you even partially seriously, got me there!

plenty of tough WC and TMA guys would smash the fuck out of him in BK fighting

Except they haven't, even Lobov didn't. And if they did, like you said, it wouldn't be impressive because you admitted it was Paulie that was not a good example of boxing, thus demolishing your own premise for your entire thread (!)

Show us a WC guy that can stand with Lobov. Of course you can't. You wouldn't last one round with a geriatric Paulie throwing only soft playful jabs

 

[TheMaster]

YOU are the one that used him as an example to start this thread. You probably forgot that seeing how you're having difficulty keeping a single coherent line of thought.

Lol at me for taking you even partially seriously, got me there!



Except they haven't, even Lobov didn't. And if they did, like you said, it wouldn't be impressive because you admitted it was Paulie that was not a good example of boxing, thus demolishing your own premise for your entire thread (!)

Show us a WC guy that can stand with Lobov. Of course you can't. You wouldn't last one round with a geriatric Paulie throwing only soft playful jabs

Ok I will clarify. Paulie is an example of how a world champion level pro boxer can perform poorly against a club level amateur in a barefist boxing fight, thus showing that modern boxing and BK can be quite different in terms of variables needed to achieve success,BK being closer to real fighting.

The bar is so low with Paulie as the benchmark...I do hope a good WC fighter enters BK fighting at some point. Hell if it doesn't happen I might train one up to compete in a few years...
(Not keen to compete myself due to commitments at this point, if BK had been around 10 years ago I might have been very tempted)

 

[JudoJabs]

Ok I will clarify. Paulie is an example of how a world champion level pro boxer can perform poorly against a club level amateur in a barefist boxing fight, thus showing that modern boxing and BK can be quite different in terms of variables needed to achieve success,BK being closer to real fighting.

The bar is so low with Paulie as the benchmark...I do hope a good WC fighter enters BK fighting at some point. Hell if it doesn't happen I might train one up to compete in a few years...
(Not keen to compete myself due to commitments at this point, if BK had been around 10 years ago I might have been very tempted)

So are you going to conveniently leave out Dat Ngyuen and Ishe Smith (both old boxers) absolutely humiliating and dominating their opponents in bareknuckle over the last few months in three separate bouts during their first ever bareknuckle contests? I have posted the both below for your "expert" analysis.

Sigh...the amount of NO NAME boxers that have dominated in bareknuckle is high my friend,

Let's go round for round on each vid below.