What has BKFC taught us about boxing as a self defence art?

[ironkhan57]

Ok I will clarify. Paulie is an example of how a world champion level pro boxer can perform poorly against a club level amateur in a barefist boxing fight, thus showing that modern boxing and BK can be quite different in terms of variables needed to achieve success,BK being closer to real fighting.

The bar is so low with Paulie as the benchmark...I do hope a good WC fighter enters BK fighting at some point. Hell if it doesn't happen I might train one up to compete in a few years...
(Not keen to compete myself due to commitments at this point, if BK had been around 10 years ago I might have been very tempted)

I got you bro. Contact dada5000 or my boy mouse on IG @skininink for a bare knuckle fight when ur ready.

 

[TheMaster]

I got you bro. Contact dada5000 or my boy mouse on IG @skininink for a bare knuckle fight when ur ready.

Lol. Why the fuck would I want to fight some little sherdogger fucktard who posts shit?

I would like to see WC in BK. And like I said if it doesn't happen, I had considered it would be pretty cool training someone to fight in it in future as my level is pretty good. And I mean doing it properly. That or Lethwei which will allow more of the system to be used not just straight fist fighting.

If your really that keen on fighting BK or mma then by all means do so, u don't need my help to do that, there are plenty of avenues available. A bit like when u said u wanted to fight in a war to have the experience
Go ahead.

 

[ironkhan57]

Lol. Why the fuck would I want to fight some little sherdogger fucktard who posts shit?

I would like to see WC in BK. And like I said if it doesn't happen, I had considered it would be pretty cool training someone to fight in it in future as my level is pretty good. And I mean doing it properly. That or Lethwei which will allow more of the system to be used not just straight fist fighting.

If your really that keen on fighting BK or mma then by all means do so, u don't need my help to do that, there are plenty of avenues available. A bit like when u said u wanted to fight in a war to have the experience
Go ahead.

Ur not fighting me lol. Ur goin to be set up with someone bro. Idk where u got your fighting me from. And ill read the rest of that post later. I box i dont fight bare knuckle yet at least.

 

[SandaKicker]

Ur goin to be set up with someone bro.

lol wut.

You’ve got issues dude.

 

[Gym Turtle]

Ur not fighting me lol. Ur goin to be set up with someone bro. Idk where u got your fighting me from. And ill read the rest of that post later. I box i dont fight bare knuckle yet at least.

Do you legitimately have reading comprehension issues? Every time someone says something to you, you act like you know what they're talking about when you're actually clueless.

TheMaster was talking about training someone to fight bare knuckle. How did you misunderstand him twice in a row?

You're delusional.

 

[Woldog]

I'll say I honestly don't know that much about Wing Chun. But every time I see it put up against a real striker it ends with the Wing Chun guy unconscious. Even when the Wing Chun guy has a 30lb weight advantage.


My question to @TheMaster is this

Hypothetically when a Wing Chun guy is up against a boxer, how would he deal with constant pressure and 8 - 15 punch combinations combining jabs, straights, hooks and uppercuts, I can't see how outside of the Ip Man movies they could possibly handle the constant pressure that comes from an aggressive styled boxer, a technical boxer they might have a better chance against.

Now throw them in against a Muay Thai fighter, who specialises in elbows and knees, how does Wing Chun effectively counter these?

I'm not dismissing Wing Chun, but from what I've seen it doesn't have an answer for a lot of different motions. Especially if a boxer, were to feint with straight and then body hook and immediately hook them to the head.

 

[ironkhan57]

Do you legitimately have reading comprehension issues? Every time someone says something to you, you act like you know what they're talking about when you're actually clueless.

TheMaster was talking about training someone to fight bare knuckle. How did you misunderstand him twice in a row?

You're delusional.

Because i really dont care for what he says and i am busy plus i got things to do and people to kill lol not really on the kill part but still.

 

[TheMaster]

You are a fucking idiot, and people have called u out on it before for moronic things u tend to say.

How about grow up, get a job (if u have one) and learn not to be such a fucktard and people might listen more to what u have to say.

That said, I'm not gonna let u sabotage this thread by getting into shit talking with u. If u want to to talk shit do it somewhere else. Otherwise if u have nothing of value to contribute on the topic, get lost.

 

[ironkhan57]

You are a fucking idiot, and people have called u out on it before for moronic things u tend to say.

How about grow up, get a job (if u have one) and learn not to be such a fucktard and people might listen more to what u have to say.

That said, I'm not gonna let u sabotage this thread by getting into shit talking with u. If u want to to talk shit do it somewhere else. Otherwise if u have nothing of value to contribute on the topic, get lost.

Lol triggered!! Its funny cuz out of all the shit people have called me out for. They have called u out for way more lol. When u first come on this site nobody was tryin to shit talk to you. But of course u dont know the difference.

I wasnt tryin to shit talk to u ealier and u edited the whole bottom of your post after i posted my shit lol.

So why dont you grew up and admit when your wrong and that WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN OPPINION ON THIS FORUM?

I have said numerous times that wing chun is good as an ad on as well cuz i did have someone in a muay thai gym i was training at teach me a bit and yes it did help with my muay thai style before i went broke a bunch of times in 2017 and before i started focusin on boxing.

Everybody ignorant on the forum except you, right?

 

[TheMaster]

I'll say I honestly don't know that much about Wing Chun. But every time I see it put up against a real striker it ends with the Wing Chun guy unconscious. Even when the Wing Chun guy has a 30lb weight advantage.


My question to @TheMaster is this

Hypothetically when a Wing Chun guy is up against a boxer, how would he deal with constant pressure and 8 - 15 punch combinations combining jabs, straights, hooks and uppercuts, I can't see how outside of the Ip Man movies they could possibly handle the constant pressure that comes from an aggressive styled boxer, a technical boxer they might have a better chance against.

Now throw them in against a Muay Thai fighter, who specialises in elbows and knees, how does Wing Chun effectively counter these?

I'm not dismissing Wing Chun, but from what I've seen it doesn't have an answer for a lot of different motions. Especially if a boxer, were to feint with straight and then body hook and immediately hook them to the head.

That is an embarrsing and laughable representative of 'wing chun' in combat sports. No wonder people trash the style. He has no footwork and doesn't even know how to punch.

It really depends how you train
If u train like this you will be effective full stop.

 

[Woldog]

That is an embarrsing and laughable representative of 'wing chun' in combat sports. No wonder people trash the style. He has no footwork and doesn't even know how to punch.

It really depends how you train
If u train like this you will be effective full stop.

is that a serious answer or is that satire? I'm not being funny right now I genuinely want to know.

 

[SandisLL]

There's some examples from streets, already posted in forum.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/useful-boxing-2-punches-2-kos.3976265/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/1-punch-ko-then-head-meets-glass.3935465/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/russian-dude-koing-fools-at-club.3952893/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/tbilisi-club-alley-fight.3919963/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/cuban-boxing-fundamentals.3780639/page-13
Ammies bouts are "easy", arts like TKD just for pointing.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-jan-11-me-62448-story.html
1 kick
https://muaythai.sg/forum/everything-else/teen-17-dies-after-tkd-competition
1 kick

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...enage-kickboxing-champion-died-leeds-tributes

No, KB too is ineffective, just point fighting.
Irony of course!

 

[TheMaster]

is that a serious answer or is that satire? I'm not being funny right now I genuinely want to know.

I am giving an example of more diverse training methods.
If u get trapped in the corner of the ring against a good WC guy your night is over.

If u have felt the power of the strikes u will know. I am routinely winding guys with body shots,thrown at about 40% power (no gloves or mma type gloves). And I know guys who hit harder than me. The power is different and more penetrating than a typical boxing punch. I believe 'hitters' in boxing who punch relaxed with heavy hands have a similar type of power.
Although I would say that is with sitting down on the punches which is the case for most WC strikes, there are no 'jab' type movemets in traditional Wing Chun every strike is to end things.



Size of the ring and ability to cut off space is important for the style to work, so if u have space to jab and run then yes,WC won't work well.

 

[Woldog]

I am giving an example of more diverse training methods.
If u get trapped in the corner of the ring against a good WC guy your night is over.

If u have felt the power of the strikes u will know. I am routinely winding guys with body shots,thrown at about 40% power (no gloves or mma type gloves). And I know guys who hit harder than me. The power is different and more penetrating than a typical boxing punch. I believe 'hitters' in boxing who punch relaxed with heavy hands have a similar type of power.
Although I would say that is with sitting down on the punches which is the case for most WC strikes, there are no 'jab' type movemets in traditional Wing Chun every strike is to end things.



Size of the ring and ability to cut off space is important for the style to work, so if u have space to jab and run then yes,WC won't work well.

Would say Jeet Kune Do not be a more effective martial art? minimal movement for maximum contact.

 

[SandisLL]

Would say Jeet Kune Do not be a more effective martial art?

Well, JKD wasn't completely developed when Bryce died.

I'm not his fan but there is difference:
1. Lee had concept about hybrid: take what Works for you, reject what doesn't work for you.
2. At least is proven that Lee had legit training in boxing and fencing plus started also something with Judo too. And these yes, are taught with sparring etc.
# Logic tells us that there is clear: he had concept about hybrid art...………...

 

[TheMaster]

Would say Jeet Kune Do not be a more effective martial art? minimal movement for maximum contact.

At the 0:40 second mark of the 60 seconds Philip Bayer clip I just posted, there is brief clip of him when he was young. The rest is all when he is in his late 50's altho still impressive.
In that brief few seconds, u get a glimpse of the crazy scary power and speed of elite Wing Chun. It is what disturbs people about high level WC although they don't say it and probably aren't aware of it most of the time. They want to dismiss and insult it but their gut tells them rightly it is for real. So they focus on the 95% joke garbage stuff out there instead.

It is not boxing, which is why I say it can be adapted to BK. But you are still deviating from the principles to finish the fight as soon as possible using any available tool.

JKD is Bruce's expression of his partial WC knowledge (he never learned the third most advanced set) combined with available martial knowledge of the era.
A more complete knowledge of Wing Chun combined with the high influx of martial knowledge and training methods today...that is something else.

 

[Woldog]

At the 0:40 second mark of the 60 seconds Philip Bayer clip I just posted, there is brief clip of him when he was young. The rest is all when he is in his late 50's altho still impressive.
In that brief few seconds, u get a glimpse of the crazy scary power and speed of elite Wing Chun. It is what disturbs people about high level WC although they don't say it and probably aren't aware of it most of the time. They want to dismiss and insult it but their gut tells them rightly it is for real. So they focus on the 95% joke garbage stuff out there instead.

It is not boxing, which is why I say it can be adapted to BK. But you are still deviating from the principles to finish the fight as soon as possible using any available tool.

JKD is Bruce's expression of his partial WC knowledge (he never learned the third most advanced set) combined with available martial knowledge of the era.
A more complete knowledge of Wing Chun combined with the high influx of martial knowledge and training methods today...that is something else.

But again I come back to the fact that the majority of the time the practitioner and their opponent are practically stationary. I would find it hard to see it defeating practically any style in BK. Granted all martial arts have their merits they also have their negative points, for WC it seems to be how stationary everything is, from their training to their "sparring". In boxing or muay thai when you stop being mobile you are pretty much done. In BK it is the same, I just can't see how any of that would be practical for BK unless you were using it to misdirect shots, and attack at the same time which in theory is nice but in reality would be a lot harder to pull off when your opponent is moving around, the problem with the majority of martial arts is they have simply become movie styles and their practicality in combat has died out or they were simply superseded by a style that was more adept in stand up.
I have a friend who runs two WC schools who has been asking me to go and teach his students a bit of boxing (His schools are his own style he has been forming after learning WC for 25 years) maybe I should go along and see what it's all about (I myself have no interest in learning another form of combat sport after 17 years of boxing and muay thai I've had enough and just want to get fat and lazy).

 

[TheMaster]

But again I come back to the fact that the majority of the time the practitioner and their opponent are practically stationary. I would find it hard to see it defeating practically any style in BK. Granted all martial arts have their merits they also have their negative points, for WC it seems to be how stationary everything is, from their training to their "sparring". In boxing or muay thai when you stop being mobile you are pretty much done. In BK it is the same, I just can't see how any of that would be practical for BK unless you were using it to misdirect shots, and attack at the same time which in theory is nice but in reality would be a lot harder to pull off when your opponent is moving around, the problem with the majority of martial arts is they have simply become movie styles and their practicality in combat has died out or they were simply superseded by a style that was more adept in stand up.
I have a friend who runs two WC schools who has been asking me to go and teach his students a bit of boxing (His schools are his own style he has been forming after learning WC for 25 years) maybe I should go along and see what it's all about (I myself have no interest in learning another form of combat sport after 17 years of boxing and muay thai I've had enough and just want to get fat and lazy).

Yes it is very stationary , usually it is trained too stationary to adapt well to most standup combat sports. It is designed originally for real life. How many serious attacks occur with guys going in and out? That is sparring or sport fighting. In reality, once u engage, u should finish it with a good few punches, chops or elbows while at the same time neutralizing the opponents chance to strike you. If u clinch for long or have to step out and reset, then something went wrong. You would be presumed to finish it next time u engage.

As u point out, the strategy works for the idea of interception of punches and simultaneous counterattack. 'Spoiling punches' with excessive handparrying is not allowed in boxing and ruins the asethetic of it as a spectator sport, but it works and is one of the bedrocks of the WC approach to close combat.

If we want to do 'WC boxing' (for want of a better term), we use the square on skills of chi sau sensitivity for close range. We use the WC tools more diversly like the uppercut and hook while controlling with the other arm - (in WC you would never just throw a hook unless u control the opponents arms so they have less chance to counter you, the tactics are different to boxing), and u need to train more long range straights ( the WC straight plus hip rotation) and much more footwork. The WC Footwork is again really for very close range as a counter attack style or chasing a few steps. You can use whatever footwork is comfortable as long as u can deliver your strikes.

Yes, you can play around and try and teach some of your friends class boxing skils, then see if you also learn some solutions from WC for in-fighting and staying fully 'in the pocket' and see what happens if u add elbows. No need to completely learn a new style but if u are at a high enough level already u should see things in terms of principles then be able to adapt what works for you. If he has been doing it that long he will know the strengths and weaknesses of the style as it is usually trained which is why he asked u to help him.

 

[JudoJabs]

since BKFC is the end all be all......we are patiently waiting for a response to the below.


So are you going to conveniently leave out Dat Ngyuen and Ishe Smith (both old boxers) absolutely humiliating and dominating their opponents in bareknuckle over the last few months in three separate bouts during their first ever bareknuckle contests? I have posted the both below for your "expert" analysis.

Sigh...the amount of NO NAME boxers that have dominated in bareknuckle is high my friend,

Let's go round for round on each vid below.

 

[TheMaster]

since BKFC is the end all be all......we are patiently waiting for a response to the below.


So are you going to conveniently leave out Dat Ngyuen and Ishe Smith (both old boxers) absolutely humiliating and dominating their opponents in bareknuckle over the last few months in three separate bouts during their first ever bareknuckle contests? I have posted the both below for your "expert" analysis.

Sigh...the amount of NO NAME boxers that have dominated in bareknuckle is high my friend,

Let's go round for round on each vid below.

So what exactly is your point?
Let's take the last fight Dat Nguyen vs Abdiel Valasquez.
A former pro boxer vs an MMA fighter.
Why is it some kind of achievement for a pro boxer to beat an mma fighter in a BK fist fight?
I saw two guys swinging, the pro boxer was much crisper and got a nice KO.

But...he still got dropped in the first round with an uppercut.
Incidently, the 'pull down neck and uppercut' is trained alot in WC also it is a standard technique so it was nice to see it pulled off.

They both took damage, did you see Nguyen's face afterward.
The impression I get is that boxers are not 'dominating and huniliating' their opponents in BKFC at all. They are winning, but they are proving to be very beatable also and especially vulnerable to the clinch striking. In all, BK seems to act somewhat as an 'equaliazer' that is scrappy guys who wouldn't be able to hold a candle to guys in a boxing ring are being competetive with them in BK which is why it is interesting and a clear sign it is a different game.