What did Helio do exactly?

[Pahlavan**]

YouTube - The MOST IMPORTANT Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu demonstration EVER

 

[Jeff Goldblum]

that wiki article claiming that Helio "invented" leverage

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: sorry gracie family .. but im pretty sure the first person to discover levers and leverage was Archimedes in like 2 BC lol

 

[Hades666]

*According to his sons.

more people than ud think

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

He saved me money on my car insurance.


And was at least partially responsible for introducing me to an awesome art.

 

[Hades666]

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: sorry gracie family .. but im pretty sure the first person to discover levers and leverage was Archimedes in like 2 BC lol

ur skit on tim and eric was pretty funny

 

[nefti]

i wonder how many of these guys flaming helio and the gracie family will still flame them if their last name was Yamamoto. My guess is little to none. Espeically conisering that you guys are flaming him for shit that he never said. Show me where helio says that he invented leverage?

 

[YeahBee]

i think the biggest difference is the training methods, Brazilians (helio ect) rolled more & developed a more fluid training style that makes you rely more on leverage than the formal Japanese style training.

dude you don't know anything do you?

that is basically what Kano did ffs

took the focus away from Katas into randori, took away the "deadly" stuff so that people could sparr full force

 

[laohu69]

You can look at the two martial arts now and see how drastic the differences are.

Funny, I don't see it that way.
I just completed a seminar taught by one of the Gracie's last month & some of the other people attending remarked on how quickly I was able to pick up the moves being taught & remember them. That was because what was being taught was EXACTLY, move for move, what I was taught as a blue belt in Judo.
When I look at BJJ I don't see the differences from Judo as much as I see the similarities.

 

[Alaskantkdkid]

YouTube - The MOST IMPORTANT Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu demonstration EVER

That club defense is similar to a move in Judo's Nage No Kata... coincidence? Maybe, probably not if you ask me.

 

[mtruitt76]

i wonder how many of these guys flaming helio and the gracie family will still flame them if their last name was Yamamoto. My guess is little to none. Espeically conisering that you guys are flaming him for shit that he never said. Show me where helio says that he invented leverage?

Dude get off the idea that people are giving Helio some shit because he is not Japanese.

People are giving Helio shit for the notion that he change the leverage point of moves which is obviously just bullshit and for the notion that he was "smaller and weaker" than his brothers when every picture shows him to be larger than Carlos.

Helio was very instrumental in popularizing BJJ, but he was not the only one responsible for its development like his sons would have you believe. I say Helio was a good salesman and marketer like Rorion which is not a slight since any new martial art needs people who can effectively spread the word.

 

[JoshGrrrr]

Funny, I don't see it that way.
I just completed a seminar taught by one of the Gracie's last month & some of the other people attending remarked on how quickly I was able to pick up the moves being taught & remember them. That was because what was being taught was EXACTLY, move for move, what I was taught as a blue belt in Judo.
When I look at BJJ I don't see the differences from Judo as much as I see the similarities.

Like I said earlier, the major differences aren't the moves themselves, but the philosophy and where the emphasis is placed. When I look at the two, I see two drastically different martial arts that share some similar moves.

We've had supposed respectable Judo brown belts come to our school. They got tapped repeatedly by our blues. One of our blue belts tapped a much larger Judo black belt at a competition (after getting thrown so hard I thought it killed him). That alone shows me that there is a pretty big difference between the two.

 

[Jeff Goldblum]

I say Helio was a good salesman and marketer like Rorion which is not a slight since any new martial art needs people who can effectively spread the word.

no, this is pretty disrespectful to say the least..

 

[Ryo]

i wonder how many of these guys flaming helio and the gracie family will still flame them if their last name was Yamamoto. My guess is little to none. Espeically conisering that you guys are flaming him for shit that he never said. Show me where helio says that he invented leverage?

Its very ironic that your an Asian guy with a "race" chip on his shoulder the size of a fucking elephant....

You bring this up like in almost every thread having to do with Kano or Helio, its hilarious.

 

[Ryo]

Like I said earlier, the major differences aren't the moves themselves, but the philosophy and where the emphasis is placed. When I look at the two, I see two drastically different martial arts that share some similar moves.

Thats funny because alot of the great BJJ champions like Royler and Renzo for example disagree with you.

We've had supposed respectable Judo brown belts come to our school. They got tapped repeatedly by our blues. One of our blue belts tapped a much larger Judo black belt at a competition (after getting thrown so hard I thought it killed him). That alone shows me that there is a pretty big difference between the two.

That doesn't show anything other then the fact that its possible to be a Judo BB and still suck on the ground. Which everybody knows anyway. Modern rules for you.

 

[topo]

Mifune was very small even in Japan...

Here is Tsunetane Oda (64 years at the time) performing some newaza when BJJ was still in very preliminary state. Obviously Oda is not as slick as he was younger, but should give you an idea where judo was at the time. It is quite safe bet that there was several people in Japan who had lot better BJJ/judo technique than Helio ever had.
YouTube - Tsunetane Oda - judo ne-waza 1 of 3 ????


I wonder why it is so important for people to believe that Helio created something unique. He probably did not, but does it diminish the value of BJJ of today. I don't think it does.

 

[koolinkunming]

I have been doing a lot of research on BJJ in Brazil...trying to find anything on the history. I have been reading on the Red Belts of BJJ....men like Armando Wriedt, Amelio Camara, Luiz Franca Filho...interesting stuff.

For instance Armando Wriedt, who trained under Helio Gracie, liked using foot locks. He stated that Carlos and Helio did not like foot locks but he did and used them a lot.

George Gracie, who nobody mentions, was a good fighter himself and he even had some conflict with his brother Helio. They both had different styles of training.

Also another Red Belt named Nahum Luiz Rabay, who trained under George Gracie, also trained in Judo and fought Vale-Tudo fights as well.

This is good stuff and I like reading it......there are a lot of Jiu-Jitsu black belts in Brazil that have been around a long time.......we just don't hear about them in the U.S.

Also BJJ Heroes has a good blog and is starting to cover some of the history of BJJ...check his blog out.

Links dude, LINKS!

 

[mtruitt76]

no, this is pretty disrespectful to say the least..

How is calling someone a good salesman and marketer being disrespectful? Doesn't mean he wasn't a master at BJJ and a pioneer of the martial art because he was without a doubt.

 

[knoxpk]

Interesting thread I see but BJJ is not (in my opinion) a stand alone art. In essence it is a hodge podge of every grappling style the Gracie family could expose themselves to.

It starts with a Judo newaza base and goes from there.

Think this through for a second, there are very few people I can think of that have the distinction of teaching prominent Gracies anything. In fact it is largely the Gracies that get credit for teaching others.

But if you really wrap your mind around it how long did they train with Maeda? Certainly they could not have been experts in the 2 or 3 years they trained with him. If anything they either learned the very basics of the style or one phase of the entire style such as ne waza.

The rest they had to learn through experimentation, other students who came in with a MA background or other instructors.

The evolution comes from trial and error and some contribution from others along the way.

The whole I adapted it for a small guy to beat a big guy is nonsense.

What small "expert" in an martial art cannot beat a bigger unskilled or unaware opponent in their own element?

For example do you not think a 147lb Mayweather Jr could KO someone 220lb Jabrone in a bar fight?
Do you not think a 149lb Dan Gable in his prime could not head spike some 200lb jackass on the street?
How about Kano? etc... and yada...

Anyway my 2 cents..

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

I have been doing a lot of research on BJJ in Brazil...trying to find anything on the history. I have been reading on the Red Belts of BJJ....men like Armando Wriedt, Amelio Camara, Luiz Franca Filho...interesting stuff.

For instance Armando Wriedt, who trained under Helio Gracie, liked using foot locks. He stated that Carlos and Helio did not like foot locks but he did and used them a lot.

George Gracie, who nobody mentions, was a good fighter himself and he even had some conflict with his brother Helio. They both had different styles of training.

Also another Red Belt named Nahum Luiz Rabay, who trained under George Gracie, also trained in Judo and fought Vale-Tudo fights as well.

This is good stuff and I like reading it......there are a lot of Jiu-Jitsu black belts in Brazil that have been around a long time.......we just don't hear about them in the U.S.

Also BJJ Heroes has a good blog and is starting to cover some of the history of BJJ...check his blog out.

Actually, George had a falling out with Carlos. And both would communicate through Helio at one point to see how the other man was doing.

 

[teamcarvalho]

Actually, George had a falling out with Carlos. And both would communicate through Helio at one point to see how the other man was doing.

That's how I thought it read......but the translation on Babel Fish is shitty.......I knew he did not get along with one of them.