What did Helio do exactly?

[Drayott]

What did he modified on the art that Maeda teached Carlos? All I can see is that he probably decided to focus on the ground work because he was frail, and maybe he tried to make judo more effective for NHB.

But what about the actual techniques? Did he improved any of them? Do you have any examples?

 

[bubkusjones]

Helio modified the Judo techniques he was taught by his brother to be more effective for people with a size disadvantange.

From H

 

[Hillary]

Helio modified the Judo techniques he was taught by his brother to be more effective for people with a size disadvantage.*

*According to his sons.

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

I like where this thread is going...

 

[JoshGrrrr]

From what I understand, he is responsible for the progression of position you see in MMA. He placed the emphasis on constantly improving your position (pass guard, move to side control, mount, take the back, finish).

From what I understand, the "Control, position, submission" part.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

*According to his sons.

which could possibly be Helio's biggest contributions to the art. Helio's sons became world renown and spread the art to the masses.

 

[Drayott]

Helio modified the Judo techniques he was taught by his brother to be more effective for people with a size disadvantange.

I hear this all the time, but nobody can give me concrete examples.

 

[Hillary]

No doubt Helio was a fucking incredible instructor, bred and taught a great lineage of students, and was in general, really fucking cool--but he didn't single-handedly develop Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. People ignore the fact that Carlos changed many things as well.

 

[mehp]

He worked much more on the ground game because he wasn't informed about stand-ups in Judo or didn't care about them.

 

[YeahBee]

Helio modified the Judo techniques he was taught by his brother to be more effective for people with a size disadvantange.
]

Yes because the creators of judo were such huge men

From what I understand, he is responsible for the progression of position you see in MMA. He placed the emphasis on constantly improving your position (pass guard, move to side control, mount, take the back, finish).

From what I understand, the "Control, position, submission" part.

that sounds more like it, judo was more created to be a sport in itself, BJJ had more to do with valetudo and self defense so it makes sense

that wiki article claiming that Helio "invented" leverage is total bullshit. an armbar (or the other countless subs that are in judo (and old JJ) does not work without leverage

and that judo is more about brute force is stupid, you could perhaps say that because Helio's brothers only did judo for a couple of years that they were n00bs at it and n00bs use strenght as we all know (and still do I guess:redface had he been exposed to, heck I would say that strength gets you further in BJJ then in judo

judo is just as theoretical and philosophical as BJJ, if not more, there are alotta judo guys around that go to far with that sort of mentalitty, bjj is still too young to have many such dudes

 

[Kyuktooki]

I just don't want BJJ to become another martial art where the lineage is worshiped and mystified. BJJ is awesome because it is a martial art where so many practitioners are constantly incorporating useful features from other grappling styles. I have to agree that Helio's most important legacy is his sons and students who have spread and further refined the art and whom in turn have spread the art to their children and student and whom I expect we can see further refine the art. BJJ is awesome because it is constantly innovating, not because of some mythical progenitor.

 

[nefti]

another one? are you fucken kidding me?

 

[bubkusjones]

Yes because the creators of judo were such huge men

Size advantage is relative. GSP has a size advantage on BJ Penn, but he does not against Anderson Silva. All of them would have a size advantage on Helio.

that wiki article claiming that Helio "invented" leverage is total bullshit. an armbar (or the other countless subs that are in judo (and old JJ) does not work without leverage

and that judo is more about brute force is stupid, you could perhaps say that because Helio's brothers only did judo for a couple of years that they were n00bs at it and n00bs use strenght as we all know (and still do I guess) had he been exposed to, heck I would say that strength gets you further in BJJ then in judo

judo is just as theoretical and philosophical as BJJ, if not more, there are alotta judo guys around that go to far with that sort of mentalitty, bjj is still too young to have many such dudes

What were you reading? Where does it say that Helio "invented" leverage? Where does it say that judo was more about brute force or that it wasn't as theoretical or philosophical?

All it says is that some of the techniques of judo, how they were taught to Helio and his brothers, didn't work well for him due to his smaller size and strength. As such, he worked on ways to adjust or work around those techniques to be more effective for him.

That's what I took from it, anyways. And no, I do not believe that Helio did it all himself, no one could. I do, however, hear more talk about Helio than Carlos. Maybe that's because Carlos died in 94, and Helio was still with us till a year ago. But hey, what do I know.

*According to his sons.

Are there any particular reasons to doubt them?



Now, what books would people recommend for more in depth reading about this?

 

[nefti]

and it wasn't just helio it was a family effort

 

[teamcarvalho]

All you have to do is look at who trained with Helio and who trained strictly with Carlos.....then go from there. You will see a lot of top black belts trained with Helio including Rolls Gracie. We will never know now since both men have passed away. Everybody will have their own opinions on the subject.

 

[YeahBee]

Size advantage is relative. GSP has a size advantage on BJ Penn, but he does not against Anderson Silva. All of them would have a size advantage on Helio.



What were you reading? Where does it say that Helio "invented" leverage? Where does it say that judo was more about brute force or that it wasn't as theoretical or philosophical?

All it says is that some of the techniques of judo, how they were taught to Helio and his brothers, didn't work well for him due to his smaller size and strength. As such, he worked on ways to adjust or work around those techniques to be more effective for him.

the moves were much harder to execute. Due to his smaller size, he realized many of the judo moves required brute strength[6] which did not suit his small stature. Consequently, he began adapting judo for his particular physical attributes,[citation needed] and through trial and error learned to maximize leverage, thus minimizing the force that needed to be exerted to execute a technique. From these experiments, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, later known as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, was created.[6] Using these new techniques, smaller and weaker practitioners gained the capability to defend themselves and even defeat much larger opponents

Kano and Mifune were smaller then Helio

good smaller judo guys are able to defeat much larger opponenets with judo (I should know I have lost judo fights against dudes that I outweight 2:1)

He didn't adapt judo, he started to learn proper judo

no doubt the emphasis on the ground did create more setups, ways into techniques, ANOTHER GAME/Sport etc etc,but the theory and philosophy behind them were already there (heck they were already in old jujutsu)

thus minimizing the force that needed to be exerted to execute a technique.

seiryoku zenyo

 

[lechien]

I think Maeda only taught Carlos. Carlos then taught his brothers. I think it was a very short period (about 3 years) and he travelling as well.

No one knows how much was taught by Maeda to Carlos.

In fact, the Judo Federation of Brasil claims Maeda as the pionner of Judo in Brasil.

Same as the Gracies claims Maeda as the pionner of Jiu Jitsu in Brasil.

 

[MickCollins]

Are there any particular reasons to doubt them?

Sure. The fact that most BJJ moves are judo moves as well and don't have radically different "leverage" points. That Carlos and the other brothers were small guys as well so the idea that they used raw strength while Helio couldn't is silly since most pictures show Helio being larger than Carlos. Its marketing.

 

[RacerX]

Some people want to mistake Helio's contribution with Kano's creation of a "do."

The Gracies kept the Judo newaza Maeda taught them alive in Brazil and successfully marketed it under their own name (then the lawsuits came). I don't really see any fundamental addition to the theory. Watch the old Kosen tournament videos. The only difference is the skill level, with the top BJJ players, with rare exception, being the eilte newaza pracitioners of our day.

That last bit is what BJJ is truly useful for. While Olympic/IJF Judo has devolved in many people's eyes, with markedly limited newaza time and now no leg shots, BJJ has at least keep newaza at a high level. Again, they preserved part of an existing system, which was thought out, tested, and put into practice by Kano and the other Kodokan Judoka.

 

[MUFC]

I think Maeda only taught Carlos. Carlos then taught his brothers. I think it was a very short period (about 3 years) and he travelling as well.

No one knows how much was taught by Maeda to Carlos.

In fact, the Judo Federation of Brasil claims Maeda as the pionner of Judo in Brasil.

Same as the Gracies claims Maeda as the pionner of Jiu Jitsu in Brasil.

Maeda taught Luis Franca directly (as I have read). From Franca came the Oswaldo Fadda lineage that eventually traces to Wendell Alexander and a decent portion of Nova Uniao (including Leo Santos and Wagnney Fabiano).