Werdum

Redhawks100 said:
This is what happens on Sherdog. When most of the forum hates a certain fighter and that fighter loses, he was "destroyed and exposed" and all rational thought goes out the window. Yet when a Sherdog favorite is completely destroyed, it's discredited with "he's out of his prime", "he turned religious", "he stopped training seriously", and other excuses.

Sherdog refuses to admit it but Cain was in the worst shape of his life. Does that mean Werdum's win doesn't count? No. Cain's coach and team failed him by not preparing him correctly for the elevation. It's a known phenomenon yet Sherdoggers fail to recognize the real affect it has on cardio.

I think it's concerning that Werdum couldn't finish a gassed out walking punch bag on the feet.

Anywho, I think Cain takes the rematch savagely. There will be tons of xcuses such as "Werdum is out of his prime" when it happens so it's going to be a great time to be on Sherdog.
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You are delusional.
You refuse to admit that someone could ever beat Cain without an excuse.
Yet you can't fathom that Styles makes fights.

You accuse Sherdog, but then the only difference from your post, is that instead of the prime excuse, you used the altitude. No credit to Werdum whatsoever...

Some people need to look in the mirror before going out claiming the rest of the world is crazy or haters...
 
Redhawks100 said:
This is what happens on Sherdog. When most of the forum hates a certain fighter and that fighter loses, he was "destroyed and exposed" and all rational thought goes out the window. Yet when a Sherdog favorite is completely destroyed, it's discredited with "he's out of his prime", "he turned religious", "he stopped training seriously", and other excuses.

Sherdog refuses to admit it but Cain was in the worst shape of his life. Does that mean Werdum's win doesn't count? No. Cain's coach and team failed him by not preparing him correctly for the elevation. It's a known phenomenon yet Sherdoggers fail to recognize the real affect it has on cardio.

I think it's concerning that Werdum couldn't finish a gassed out walking punch bag on the feet.

Anywho, I think Cain takes the rematch savagely. There will be tons of xcuses such as "Werdum is out of his prime" when it happens so it's going to be a great time to be on Sherdog.
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This feels off-center.

Yes, the altitude had an effect. Werdum's camp arrived long before the event and stayed at a location even higher in altitude than the fight would be at. Cain's camp came in too late for him to fully acclimate.

However, Werdum put together a great fight. He landed more significant strikes than Cain (who does that??) and the margin is pretty substantial if you discount leg kicks. Werdum hit Cain in the face - a lot. He also clinched very well and made the rapidly fatiguing Velasquez carry his weight.

Werdum's strategy for the fight was as big a factor as the altitude, imo. It wasn't all one thing or the other.

Will Cain win the rematch? Maybe, he's a top-shelf opponent and a loss like that will put a fire under your ass not to repeat your mistakes.

Werdum didn't win 9 of his last 10 and sustain a career 80% finishing rate because he sucks. He doesn't hold the only submission wins over Fedor and Cain because he's so beatable.
 
lol a lot of salty ppl in this thread, i think i have high cholesterol now
 
Cain usually controls the distance and the pace of the fight, but he was completely unable to impose his will on Werdum. That should be a huge eye opener to anyone who watched. I was amazed at how easily Werdum flipped the script when Cain tried to clench where Cain always dominates
 
Italian Brock said:
I'm interested . I usually train and team Oyama I'm Irvine but a soaring session from someone on sherdog would be fun. Plus, long beach isn't far from me and I work at the long beach VA = win win
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I've heard good things about Oyama out there in the OC. I'm at a local Muay Thai gym it's not an MMA gym. It's called Khmer Kickboxing if you google it, it's probably the only one around anywhere so it'll turn up. Adult sessions are from 7PM on out. You can come by and check it out my name is Johnny.
 
wlu29 said:
I would bet based on value

A lot of people are gonna bet based on werdum winNing the first match

Cain looked more shitty than werdum looked good

I've never been a Cain fan, I'm stating where I believe the value would be
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You're not really answering the question. Why do you think Cain would be the value pick? What advantages does he have in the fight? How can he change his style to work against Werdum?
 
if that win was over rated. does that mean cain is even worse and werdum shouldve won even faster and more desicive? Yes i think so yes!
 
so much glorious asspain in op, i don't even know where to begin.

:icon_cry2

lulz
 
Toxxus said:
This feels off-center.

Yes, the altitude had an effect. Werdum's camp arrived long before the event and stayed at a location even higher in altitude than the fight would be at. Cain's camp came in too late for him to fully acclimate.

However, Werdum put together a great fight. He landed more significant strikes than Cain (who does that??) and the margin is pretty substantial if you discount leg kicks. Werdum hit Cain in the face - a lot. He also clinched very well and made the rapidly fatiguing Velasquez carry his weight.

Werdum's strategy for the fight was as big a factor as the altitude, imo. It wasn't all one thing or the other.

Will Cain win the rematch? Maybe, he's a top-shelf opponent and a loss like that will put a fire under your ass not to repeat your mistakes.

Werdum didn't win 9 of his last 10 and sustain a career 80% finishing rate because he sucks. He doesn't hold the only submission wins over Fedor and Cain because he's so beatable.
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My point is that Werdum looked incredible due to an uncharacteristically gassed out Velasquez.

Werdum's obviously an elite fighter, but he didn't look leagues ahead of Cain when Cain was fresh (even for the short time that it was)
 
ZIoCEJC.jpg


No need for muay thai.
 
Redhawks100 said:
My point is that Werdum looked incredible due to an uncharacteristically gassed out Velasquez.

Werdum's obviously an elite fighter, but he didn't look leagues ahead of Cain when Cain was fresh (even for the short time that it was)
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Cain looked like shit from the beginning.

Even when he was winning he was doing little to no damage.

Cain wouldn't be able to replicate that game plan for 5 rounds against Werdum. Werdum is to versatile on the feet and well disciplined in the clinch for Cain not to take damage following that game plan and this will affect his cardio big time buddy.

Cain was gassed during the 4th and 5th of the second JDS fight.


Keep dreaming though bro.
 
dude i love Cain to but if you cant see how amazing and perfectly executed Werdum gameplan was to neutralize his fighting style you are just blind.
No worries Cain got his second chance already.
we will see if it as a fluke victory or not.
 
KrowX said:
People overrate how good Werdum looked and underrate how bad Cain looked.

First off all, Werdum´s wrestling clinch and thai clinch game is shit. I know everyone by now has convinced themselves that Werdum´s clinch is amazing and destroyed Cain, but it isn´t, and it didn´t. That´s a myth.

In Round 1 Cain controlled the clinch. He did exactly what he wanted to do, he pushed Werdum against the fence and dirty boxed him. That´s exactly Cain´s game. Werdum couldn´t stopped Cain from pressing him against the fence and punch him.

"Ohh, but, but, but, but Werdum´s That clinch"

No. Shut up. You know nothing about Muay Thai. Werdum´s thai clinch is shit. That´s why Cain broke the hold every time Werdum tried something and prevented pretty much all knees in Round 1. If you can´t hold the thai clinch for more than a few seconds and you fail to land anything, you´re not having the success you wanna have.

"Ohh, but, but, but, it tired Cain"

No. Shut up. You know nothing about Muay Thai. Holding someone´s neck for 5 or 6 seconds a few times in 1 round won´t make someone like Cain gas out in 4 minutes. The goal of the Thai clinch is to land knees. If you´re not doing that, you´re not doing much.

Cain is a wrestler, and a damn good one. Got taken down by Lesnar, got pressed against the fence for almost a whole minute and was still fresh after all that. Do you really believe that Werdum holding is neck for a few seconds is more energy consuming than being controlled by 285 pound Brock Lesnar? You´re delusional.

"Ohhh, but Werdum´s striking game was just too good. He destroyed Cain standing"

No. Shut up. You know nothing about Muay Thai. Werdum faced the sloppiest Cain we´ve ever seen and still managed to get tagged almost as many times as he tagged Cain. Poor head movement, poor speed, sloppy technique. And he was going against a guy that by the end of round 1 was dead.

Cain lost the fight because in round 2 he didn´t have the energy to do what he was doing in round 1. He simply wasn´t prepared for the altitude. It´s as simple as that and it happens with athletes from all sports.

Anyone who says Werdum was responsible for Cain gassing don´t know what they´re talking about. Go watch the JDS fights. Watch how many bombs and elbows JDS landed during the fight. Go watch how many times Junior defended Cain´s takedowns. ALL THAT didn´t stop Cain from doing what he had to do, but somehow Werdum, with a few seconds of neck holding managed to tire Cain in 1 round? You´re all delusional.

Oh, and i bet the same guys who will respond to this topic barking about how wrong i am are the same who thought JDS would beat Cain in the second fight.
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So basically anyone who disagrees with you knows nothing about Muay Thai, got it.
 
KrowX said:
Cain is a wrestler, and a damn good one. Got taken down by Lesnar, got pressed against the fence for almost a whole minute and was still fresh after all that. Do you really believe that Werdum holding is neck for a few seconds is more energy consuming than being controlled by 285 pound Brock Lesnar? You
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NoBiasJustMMA said:
You're not really answering the question. Why do you think Cain would be the value pick? What advantages does he have in the fight? How can he change his style to work against Werdum?
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i think his cardio and ring rust would not be a factor

those are the two things that lead to werdum beating cain the first time
 
So basically Werdum didn't do anything right but Cain still managed to lose the fight?
 
eworden78 said:
I'm a huuuge Cain fan. Been hyping him since I first heard about him in an interview with Jon Fitch.

Cain never looks great, he wins by making others look bad. He uses pressure, position, and striking volume to grind people down and overwhelm them.

The beauty of what Werdum did, was never let Cain control the position, or overwhelm him with pressure. Whether you thought Werdum looked great or not, he was able to win or at least neutralize Cain, in every position.

Nobody has ever been able to do that to Cain, and Werdum was able to right from the start.
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Basically this. Cain's skills, particularly his boxing, get overrated. He's an excellent all-around wrestler with decent striking, and an awesome gas tank that he uses to constantly pressure his opponents and set a pace they can't keep. Very effective, but not highly technical. Also very predictable, vs Werdum who brings something different to every fight he's in.
 
Redhawks100 said:
This is what happens on Sherdog. When most of the forum hates a certain fighter and that fighter loses, he was "destroyed and exposed" and all rational thought goes out the window. Yet when a Sherdog favorite is completely destroyed, it's discredited with "he's out of his prime", "he turned religious", "he stopped training seriously", and other excuses.

Sherdog refuses to admit it but Cain was in the worst shape of his life. Does that mean Werdum's win doesn't count? No. Cain's coach and team failed him by not preparing him correctly for the elevation. It's a known phenomenon yet Sherdoggers fail to recognize the real affect it has on cardio.

I think it's concerning that Werdum couldn't finish a gassed out walking punch bag on the feet.

Anywho, I think Cain takes the rematch savagely. There will be tons of xcuses such as "Werdum is out of his prime" when it happens so it's going to be a great time to be on Sherdog.
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I will share something I learn year ago rom watching professional fighting . . . it is a heavy burden to go straight to a re-match when you have been finished. Usually the re-match is even more conclusive for the winner. The psychological ramifications are immeasurable when you get stopped and it is generally recommended that one take some warm-up bouts during the interim to completely recover.

I witnessed this when Matthew Hilton, an English-Canadian journeyman with a checkered criminal past fought this French-Canadian who was the #1 ranked middleweight contender by the WBC back in the late 1990's. The first fight was an all-time classic and went to the ten-second warning when it ended in a comeback TKO victory for Matthew who was being outclassed entirely by the heavy favorite. They went straight to a re-match and it ended in two rounds this time with a straight KO I believe.
 
Young Herschel said:
I will share something I learn year ago rom watching professional fighting . . . it is a heavy burden to go straight to a re-match when you have been finished. Usually the re-match is even more conclusive for the winner. The psychological ramifications are immeasurable when you get stopped and it is generally recommended that one take some warm-up bouts during the interim to completely recover.

I witnessed this when Matthew Hilton, an English-Canadian journeyman with a checkered criminal past fought this French-Canadian who was the #1 ranked middleweight contender by the WBC back in the late 1990's. The first fight was an all-time classic and went to the ten-second warning when it ended in a comeback TKO victory for Matthew who was being outclassed entirely by the heavy favorite. They went straight to a re-match and it ended in two rounds this time with a straight KO I believe.
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You touch a good point.
Don't even need to go out of MMA.
See how Barao was outclassed by TJ on the second fight. IMO that was straight up confidence (on TJ side) and lack thereof for Barao.


Then again, the opposite happened with Mighty mouse & Uncle creepy!
UC beat MM in the first fight. Was robbed of the decision. On second fight, came over-confident while MM improved.
From there though, MM "swag" grew and UC became erratic. IMHO if roles were reversed, UC would have been the unbeatable champ while MM would struggle.

Heck, even Anderson Silva, after his first lost to Weidman changed a lot. His second fight, he was completely out of character.
Then against Diaz, it was a very distant shade of the greatest highlight fighter we knew him to be.

IMHO the mental game is sometimes way more brutal than taking the punches....
 
TobikanJudan94 said:
What exactly did Cain in round 1? He landed a few more strikes than Werdum,none of them dangerous,looked very uncomfortable both standing and on the ground,got taken down and refused to go to the ground with Werdum. You think next time he will fight 5 rounds like the first and win a Edgar-like decision? I know UFC's hype convinced everyone of that,but Cain is not a 245 pounds Frankie Edgar.
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Nobody is and honestly if you look back I think its clear Cain gasses vs Jnr during the 3rd round of the 2nd fight, its just that Jnr is even more gassed and beaten up by that point.
 
His performance against Cain was not overrated at all. We can sit here and make excuses for fighters all day, but at the end of the day Fabricio beat up and took Cain's belt away from him. He looked extremely impressive and earned the win that night.

However, I believe Cain will come back ten times better than the first match. He has a history of bouncing back after tough losses and looking like the baddest man on the planet. If Cain uses more of his wrestling and watches out for submissions, he could land a nasty elbow or test Werdum's cardio compared to his own, which is known to be some of the best in the UFC. If we see a tired, slowed down Werdum, then we will see much of what Cain did to Cigano. There's also a possibility of him taking him down constantly and beating him up for 5 rounds until a decision win.

Point is, I see the second fight going differently but Fabricio Werdum is no easy re-match. He could also go in there and finish Cain quickly or just beat on him the entire fight and look that much more dominating.
 
moreorless87 said:
Nobody is and honestly if you look back I think its clear Cain gasses in the champ rounds vs Jnr during the 3rd round of the second time, its just that Jnr is even more gassed and beaten up by that point.
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Oh man, thank YOU. Most people don't see that. You just have to have more pace than your opponent to appear and STAY fresh. Its the guy getting beat and scrambling to survive that gasses harder, too. Cain got to choose his pace once JDS was basically broken. Reacting to another's pace is harder than setting what you're comfortable, while staying in your own game.
 
rusty1007 said:
Match-ups make fights. JDS beats Werdum...Werdum beats Cain.
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I would like to see a JDS vs. Werdum rematch someday soon.

Werdum has put in a lot of work developing a striking game and is willing to bring new things to the table. JDS looks like the same JDS that we have always known, except it isn't working for him as well as it used to.

No one seven years ago thought Robbie Lawler would be the UFC WW beast that he is today either. Some fighters just get better over time.

Please note; This does not mean that I think Werdum is a HW beast at the moment. I just believe he is shoring up his weak areas while some other fighters are treading water.
 
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That was a pretty complete and thorough ass kicking. Werdum won that fight everywhere. When both guys were fresh Werdum was never in trouble and looked like he was calmly executing a game plan.

I picked Cain to win. I was epic-level wrong. Live with it.
 
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