Was Ned Stark correct...

[AGGAMEMNON66]

I think if she knew she could have accepted Jon much more, maybe even love him almost as a son, ignoring public shame (male nobles having bastards was'nt THAT big deal), knowing deep down her husband has been ever loyal to her

But still was unacceptable risk
Let's say life of one of her real sons was at risk (and ALL have been) she would have sold Jon's secret without think twice to save one of them

Robert killing Jon was VERY possible
Only chance would have been spare his life to honor his friendship with Ned, but reality is unlike the tv version clown even older/fatter Robert deep down still was an instinctive murderer and memory of Lyanna loss his worst trigger... my guess is would have killed Jon in a burst of rage and only afterward try repair things with Ned, saying he just killed the result of rape of his sister don't be mad at me bro let's drink a beer

Ned knew him better than anybody and rightfully did'nt trusted him over that

Ultimately Ned did best choice he could, and they've been also lucky Jon was born super Stark looking

Robert finding out Jon was the love child of Rhaegar and his bride to be would not have ended well for Ned or Jon. Roberts temper would have gotten the best of him and there would have been trouble over that -especially with Ned actively hiding it- he’d see that as a betrayal.


Keep in mind Robert would have to face the reality that his future wife chose Rhaegar and willingly let herself get kidnapped and knocked up.. I don’t think Robert handles all of that with grace

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Might of saved Jon from banging his aunt

Or guaranteed it.. you know how them Targs do

 

[ChosenOne]

I think if she knew she could have accepted Jon much more, maybe even love him almost as a son, ignoring public shame (male nobles having bastards was'nt THAT big deal), knowing deep down her husband has been ever loyal to her

But still was unacceptable risk
Let's say life of one of her real sons was at risk (and ALL have been) she would have sold Jon's secret without think twice to save one of them

Robert killing Jon was VERY possible
Only chance would have been spare his life to honor his friendship with Ned, but reality is unlike the tv version clown even older/fatter Robert deep down still was an instinctive murderer and memory of Lyanna loss his worst trigger... my guess is would have killed Jon in a burst of rage and only afterward try repair things with Ned, saying he just killed the result of rape of his sister don't be mad at me bro let's drink a beer

Ned knew him better than anybody and rightfully did'nt trusted him over that

Ultimately Ned did best choice he could, and they've been also lucky Jon was born super Stark looking

I think Catelyn was just too unstable to keep that secret with Ned, and thinking the world was laughing at them, mocking them, as 'Ned the Honourable man', cheated on her, Catelyn, and now she was raising his bastard.

That 'perception' other held of them bothered her when she thought it was an accurate perception, and i think she would not be able to handle it knowing it was a lie.

As i said, i think she spills it along the lines of 'defending Ned's honour' and telling others he did not cheat. In a tear filled scene she explains to Ned, 'she did it for him'...'to defend him', as Robert comes to kill Jon and Ned must die defending him.

Once again Catelyn would doom their family, like in that movie, where you can only change the way you die, but not that you do die.

 

[ChosenOne]

Robert finding out Jon was the love child of Rhaegar and his bride to be would not have ended well for Ned or Jon. Roberts temper would have gotten the best of him and there would have been trouble over that -especially with Ned actively hiding it- he’d see that as a betrayal.


Keep in mind Robert would have to face the reality that his future wife chose Rhaegar and willingly let herself get kidnapped and knocked up.. I don’t think Robert handles all of that with grace

i've seen some debate on line between fans that the King Robert of the movies (not Books) perhaps could have been swayed by Ned to spare the child. That Robert really had soft spot for child innocence and had shown it prior. So while, at the moment of finding out, he would insist the child must die, and either Ned can do it, or he will, by the next day he would be more open to compromise.

That compromise would be that the 'Honourable Ned Stark tell everyone he was his bastard child and tell no one the truth', and 'as soon as the kid was of age Ned ensure he pledged to Black and went to the Wall'.

So everything you have touched on prior but many believe Robert (of the show) could have accepted that?????

 

[LEWIS540]

Does it? Ned keeping Jon's heritage a secret isnt what starts off the conflict, thats down to Joffery being a bastard and the politics between the Lannister's and others.

The situation with Joffrey as well I don't think is just "honour" and simplified morality, if it was then arguebly he would let it slide. That he doesnt I would argue is because he views the Lannisters having that degree of power as bad and Joffery as a very unfit king.

Ned did break his oath to the king as well when he originally took out arms and I think what we see of the character most likely he would have killed Aerys as well.

Yes.

War of the 5 kings would not have happened without Bobby’s rebellion.

Joffrey wouldn’t exist if Lyanna did her duty instead of running off with a married man.

All the major conflicts of the saga were born from her and Rhaegar eloping.

 

[Osculater]

This thread is inspired by @Clippy thread asking who you would u trust with a secret. Hespect.

My question is:

Was Ned Stark correct in keeping the secret about Jon Snow's (Stark) birth a secret from his wife Catelyn Stark, even though you can argue, that her belief that he cheated on her, led to a degree of madness in her?

His belief was that she would expose the secret and Robert would kill Jon.

Do you agree?

Ned Starks last words were "these hoes ain't loyal"

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Might of saved Jon from banging his aunt

Best night of his life

 

[Osculater]

Hope you mean "save" not "see" Barry and Ned were probably the only good ones who didn't play politics.


Also Ned's promise to his dying sister meant he couldn't even tell his wife to save his marriage, spare his nephew/bastard the suffering, even prevent Bobby B from going to war, ect ect... Ned would not break his vow for any reason for love of his sister and fear of being an Oathbreaker and damned by all , that's how much of a G he was...to a fault...

That's MoNica!

 

[Jack Reacheround]

It’s been so long I can’t even remember whose kid Jon Snow was.

 

[Osculater]

Fuck Off @Clippy !

You can't trust @Clippy with a secret

 

[Osculater]

She's a Tully , the Tully's are retarded she would have done something retarded to Jon

The Tully's are a bunch of Muppets!

 

[moreorless87]

Yes.

War of the 5 kings would not have happened without Bobby’s rebellion.

Joffrey wouldn’t exist if Lyanna did her duty instead of running off with a married man.

All the major conflicts of the saga were born from her and Rhaegar eloping.

That had already happened though, what conflict was caused by Ned hiding Jon's background?

 

[LEWIS540]

That had already happened though, what conflict was caused by Ned hiding Jon's background?

I’m saying that everything that happens in the saga has the catalyst of Lyanna/Rhaegar being selfish.

Of course if Jon’s identify was never hidden by Eddard, the entire story post Robert’s rebellion would have been very different. Might well have had a Baratheon vs Stark war. As I said he was in a no win situation.

This one situation isn’t why I question Ned’s “whiter than white” honorable reputation. He clearly tries to be a good man etc etc…..I’m saying the entire structure of that society (based on the English feudal system) was highly egregious, even if Ned was one of the fairer Lords he is still very much apart of the problem.

Obviously from the point of view of the story it’s how life is, not Ned’s fault, but in reality all the people in power abuse their status. “Come join us in rebelling against the king, or face the consequences” type thing.

 

[Streeter]

If you want keep a secret secret then you only tell those in which there's no choice. Felling a person a secret is helping them by being honest - Its helping you cope and just putting a burden on them . Better for everyone to just STFU.

 

[Bacco]

Robert finding out Jon was the love child of Rhaegar and his bride to be would not have ended well for Ned or Jon. Roberts temper would have gotten the best of him and there would have been trouble over that -especially with Ned actively hiding it- he’d see that as a betrayal.


Keep in mind Robert would have to face the reality that his future wife chose Rhaegar and willingly let herself get kidnapped and knocked up.. I don’t think Robert handles all of that with grace

Indeed, beside problems with Ned thing, as he would have either said the lie as he did or no lie at all

Ned choice could have been tell Robert the truth from the start, but he did'nt because he rightfully guessed Robert would have most likely murdered the child

I think Catelyn was just too unstable to keep that secret with Ned, and thinking the world was laughing at them, mocking them, as 'Ned the Honourable man', cheated on her, Catelyn, and now she was raising his bastard.

That 'perception' other held of them bothered her when she thought it was an accurate perception, and i think she would not be able to handle it knowing it was a lie.

As i said, i think she spills it along the lines of 'defending Ned's honour' and telling others he did not cheat. In a tear filled scene she explains to Ned, 'she did it for him'...'to defend him', as Robert comes to kill Jon and Ned must die defending him.

Once again Catelyn would doom their family, like in that movie, where you can only change the way you die, but not that you do die.

I don't think that way
Beside in medievale like world -male- nobles having a bastard was'nt THAT big deal, if anything any average noble was likely to have some around lol

For Catelyn was particolar sore spot because she believed to have been betrayed, wich ruined that (true) idea Ned was that 1% that does'nt do It

If she knew Truth would have been easier for her let people talk

But again, She could have sold Jon secret to save real sons if needed, better She not knowing shit

 

[fungi]

This thread is inspired by @Clippy thread asking who you would u trust with a secret. Hespect.

My question is:

Was Ned Stark correct in keeping the secret about Jon Snow's (Stark) birth a secret from his wife Catelyn Stark, even though you can argue, that her belief that he cheated on her, led to a degree of madness in her?

His belief was that she would expose the secret and Robert would kill Jon.

Do you agree?

True story. I read it in some almanac.

At one convent the nuns asked their abbot why women were not allowed to absolve/receive confessions. He gave them a test, if they passed it, he'd allow it.

He gave them a box and told them not to open it for one day.

The whole day the nuns wondered what was in there. Their curiosity was eating them alive.
After some time they did open it, and from the box flew out a little sparrow. Apparently, they couldn't put it back.

At the end of the day the abbot asked for the box. When the nuns gave him the opened box, he responded: "Women are not allowed to absolve confessions, because they cannot keep secrets."

P.s. Catelyn Tully was a dumb, angry, vindictive, and unresonable person.

Ned did right by not telling her. He saved himself some years of living.

 

[Bacco]

Might of saved Jon from banging his aunt

If aunt looks like that i don't want your truth lol

 

[Osculater]

If aunt looks like that i don't want your truth lol

 

[Ezekiel 25:17]

Of course he was correct. Women are irrational. There’s no telling what Catelyn would do with that information.

She woulda pigeon messengered all her homies around the 7 kingdoms and gossiped like a mad wench scorned.

 

[Halifax]

Well keeping that promise to a girl who's actions had led to 1000s of deaths, meant that 20 years later 1000s more had to die, too.

Protecting the secrets of your family at the cost of so much death and suffering of others, doesn't sound particularly noble to me.

Jaime breaking his oath, and sacrificing his honour, to do the right thing seems a lot more noble to me.......not that he did not also do some crap to protect his own family, too.

If you think Ned was a beacon of goodness in a white cowboy hat, you don't know how GRRM viewed the feudal system ASOIAF or his views on war in general.

Ned was very much closer to white than black, but circumstance put him in some no win situations.

As you say......he followed his own code of morality. Doesn't mean it was a noble code by everyone else's perspective.

Her actions lead to 1000s of deaths?
Her dumb impulsive brother Brandon couldn't accept the idea that his little sis was a slut who had a crush and wanted the D and rode into kings landing, sword bare, demanding Rhaegar come out and die.

I ain't a rocket scientist.....but if my sister was last seen with Bashar Al-Assad and had disappeared, I'm not sure riding into Hafez Al-Assad's court with an AK47 in my hands shouting for the heir to come out and die in front of everyone would be my play.

By the time Ned knew what had happened, the war was over. What good does it do to let an innocent child die over his lineage? Especially when you can raise him and nobody will ever know if you keep your mouth shut? You save a life, and all it cost is other people's view of your honor. And in reality, honor is self reflection and what others think doesn't mean shit.

Quorin Halfhand said the same shit to Jon when Jon balked at the idea of defecting to the wildlings because others will think he is a traitor. "Our honor means no more than our lives if it is in defense of the wall"