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Was Ned Stark correct...

Well keeping that promise to a girl who's actions had led to 1000s of deaths, meant that 20 years later 1000s more had to die, too.

Protecting the secrets of your family at the cost of so much death and suffering of others, doesn't sound particularly noble to me.

Jaime breaking his oath, and sacrificing his honour, to do the right thing seems a lot more noble to me.......not that he did not also do some crap to protect his own family, too.

If you think Ned was a beacon of goodness in a white cowboy hat, you don't know how GRRM viewed the feudal system ASOIAF or his views on war in general.

Ned was very much closer to white than black, but circumstance put him in some no win situations.

As you say......he followed his own code of morality. Doesn't mean it was a noble code by everyone else's perspective.
Do you understand the concept of 'Results based thinking', that is a core concept in poker strategy play? Often called the 'fallacy of results based thinking'.

It is when a person makes a horrible decision not based on any math or logic and they win anyway (or the opposite 'they make a great decision and lose') and they then proclaim that decision the correct one, as they got the right result. Many will say 'f*ck you, i won', as if that makes it correct.

I ask as you seem to base your entire view of an action being noble or not based on the outcome that follows that decision as opposed to the reasoning the person.

For instance, lets say Ned did nothing differently and none of the 1000's of deaths and 20 years of problems happened, would you then say Ned's choice was noble, even though it was the same choice?
 
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Ned's oath meant that much to him because he was a man of honor. No matter what the price, no matter what the cost to himself and his family, he wouldn't violate her trust. He was absolutely not about shades of gray, he saw right and wrong and followed his code. Like handing in the badge and office as Hand rather than sign off on King Robert's order to have Danaerys assassinated.
Then why did he confess to being a traitor when he was imprisoned? In the end he sacrificed his honor to do the right thing for his family and Joffrey had him executed anyways.
 
This thread is inspired by @Clippy thread asking who you would u trust with a secret. Hespect.

My question is:

Was Ned Stark correct in keeping the secret about Jon Snow's (Stark) birth a secret from his wife Catelyn Stark, even though you can argue, that her belief that he cheated on her, led to a degree of madness in her?

His belief was that she would expose the secret and Robert would kill Jon.

Do you agree?

She's a Tully , the Tully's are retarded she would have done something retarded to Jon
 
Ned not telling Jon himself was pretty fucked. How old was Jon supposed to be in season 1? Kit Harrington was in his 20s, which is way too old to be keeping such a secret.
 
Nope.

His brother/father were murdered and 1000s more in war because his sister ran off with a married man. Fuck her and her promise.

If Selmy was left with The Mad King instead of Jaime, real good chance King's landing would have been burnt. He was basically the SS to the Mad King's Hitler.

Easy to be noble when it's you yourself who decides what nobility is and can judge the poor people from your castle.

As stated myriad times all he characters were shades of grey, and Selmy and Ned are no exception.

As Jaime proved, doing the right thing was more important than keeping some silly oath.
You don't seem to understand the significance of intent. At all.

Your opinions are also curiously contradictory. Jaime was more practical than Selmy, but he also didn't hold the virtue of honor in high regard, and that's why he was willing to inherit dishonor in order to commit a dishonor (killing his king) to spare so many lives. That doesn't mean Selmy was "self-serving". He adhered to the code of honor of a knight. He didn't see it as his place to decide when the royals he served were making the right or wrong decision. And it's understandable why that became the code, philosophically; because if you think that way, at any point, a mutiny is threatened by a whim. It's a slippery slope. How do you identify when the moment arrives that a threshold has been crossed, and now is the moment justifying treason? Do you think we are any different even without our monarchs? The Secret Service doesn't forcibly oppose the President even if some in their ranks might believe the President is carrying out genocidal campaigns abroad with his foreign policy. That isn't their place, it isn't their right. Many across the world would already argue that moment has been reached, and would love to see our President assassinated. That's true any time of the day, any day of the year, every year that marches on. The knight is shield & sword, not a crown.

Ned, similarly, was willing to inherit dishonor, but in his case, it wasn't to protect the realm, but the illegitimate child of his sister. That was one of those genius flourishes by Martin. Ned and Jaime suffer a similarity of fate despite being so dissimilar otherwise in character, motivation, and circumstance.

Finally, what does "fuck her and her promise" mean? Does that mean Ned should sacrifice the child? Because that's what you're proposing. Infanticide to quell the chaos of a contested realm. That's what they would have done. They'd kill the child. Are you too naive to understand that? Robert couldn't have let Jon survive. Furthermore, I don't understand why you're blaming Ned for the consequences of her choice which led to Robert's Rebellion as "self-serving". How is he responsible for Lyanna and Rhaegar's choice? Revealing the truth wouldn't have compromised his honor, but hers, and Rhaegar's. And it wouldn't have spared a war because all the royal houses would still have been entangled in a scandal with a Mad King on the throne to resolve it when his own brother was involved in it. Baratheon was still wronged, and the Martells now would have known they had been wronged, too. If the King was going to serve rational justice, he wouldn't have murdered the Stark lords when he thought his brother had kidnapped Lyanna. He was never going to hold his brother accountable. War was inevitable. Ned was wise enough to know he didn't know how everyone would react to the situation either way.

I don't understand how anyone could construe anything Ned did to be self-serving.
 
You don't seem to understand the significance of intent. At all.

Your opinions are also curiously contradictory. Jaime was more practical than Selmy, but he also didn't hold the virtue of honor in high regard, and that's why he was willing to inherit dishonor in order to commit a dishonor (killing his king) to spare so many lives. That doesn't mean Selmy was "self-serving". He adhered to the code of honor of a knight. He didn't see it as his place to decide when the royals he served were making the right or wrong decision. And it's understandable why that became the code, philosophically; because if you think that way, at any point, a mutiny is threatened by a whim. It's a slippery slope. How do you identify when the moment arrives that a threshold has been crossed, and now is the moment justifying treason? Do you think we are any different even without our monarchs? The Secret Service doesn't forcibly oppose the President even if some in their ranks might believe the President is carrying out genocidal campaigns abroad with his foreign policy. That isn't their place, it isn't their right. Many across the world would already argue that moment has been reached, and would love to see our President assassinated. That's true any time of the day, any day of the year, every year that marches on. The knight is shield & sword, not a crown.

Ned, similarly, was willing to inherit dishonor, but in his case, it wasn't to protect the realm, but the illegitimate child of his sister. That was one of those genius flourishes by Martin. Ned and Jaime suffer a similarity of fate despite being so dissimilar otherwise in character, motivation, and circumstance.

Finally, what does "fuck her and her promise" mean? Does that mean Ned should sacrifice the child? Because that's what you're proposing. Infanticide to quell the chaos of a contested realm. That's what they would have done. They'd kill the child. Are you too naive to understand that? Robert couldn't have let Jon survive. Furthermore, I don't understand why you're blaming Ned for the consequences of her choice which led to Robert's Rebellion as "self-serving". How is he responsible for Lyanna and Rhaegar's choice? Revealing the truth wouldn't have compromised his honor, but hers, and Rhaegar's. And it wouldn't have spared a war because all the royal houses would still have been entangled in a scandal with a Mad King on the throne to resolve it when his own brother was involved in it. Baratheon was still wronged, and the Martells now would have known they had been wronged, too. If the King was going to serve rational justice, he wouldn't have murdered the Stark lords when he thought his brother had kidnapped Lyanna. He was never going to hold his brother accountable. War was inevitable. Ned was wise enough to know he didn't know how everyone would react to the situation either way.

I don't understand how anyone could construe anything Ned did to be self-serving.

Yeah, I'm not reading that.

But intent and ignorance is not an excuse. If your actions lead to 1000s dying, fuck your best intentions.
 
Yeah, I'm not reading that.

But intent and ignorance is not an excuse. If your actions lead to 1000s dying, fuck your best intentions.
Ahhh so without answering my prior question, your entire position is based on the Fallacy of Results based thinking.

you are saying the exact same action can be good and noble if it does not 'lead to 1000's dying', but if it does 'lead to thousands dying' it is bad and not noble.

If you were present and any action was contemplated being taken, and someone asked for your counsel on whether to take it or not, your only answer would be 'i cannot answer as i have not seen the outcome and my judgement is entirely based on outcome. That action may be great and noble or terrible and bad and we need to see what happens next to judge'.

it is a very flawed to judge.
 
Ned not telling Jon himself was pretty fucked. How old was Jon supposed to be in season 1? Kit Harrington was in his 20s, which is way too old to be keeping such a secret.
Season 1 in the show Jon was 16. In the books he was 14. I agree, should have told him before going to the Nightswatch. But I think Ned was waiting so Jon would be out of the picture and sworn in, then he would tell him. Still a dick move just to “protect him” I get it when he was a child, but old enough to go to the watch, he is old enough to know the truth.
 
This thread is inspired by @Clippy thread asking who you would u trust with a secret. Hespect.

My question is:

Was Ned Stark correct in keeping the secret about Jon Snow's (Stark) birth a secret from his wife Catelyn Stark, even though you can argue, that her belief that he cheated on her, led to a degree of madness in her?

His belief was that she would expose the secret and Robert would kill Jon.

Do you agree?


It would put the realm and Jon in a real tight spot.. once Jon took the black the secret could have come out imo because he would have renounced all titles in doing so.


But Ned lost his head not long after that and.. the rest is history..
 
I'm not sure on that one. I guess....yes.

I don't think he should have beheaded that kid in the first episode though. I mean I get why he had to do it I guess but damn....that was cold. He did try to explain to his son.
 
There is only one king and hes called stannis the mannis
 
This thread is inspired by @Clippy thread asking who you would u trust with a secret. Hespect.

My question is:

Was Ned Stark correct in keeping the secret about Jon Snow's (Stark) birth a secret from his wife Catelyn Stark, even though you can argue, that her belief that he cheated on her, led to a degree of madness in her?

His belief was that she would expose the secret and Robert would kill Jon.

Do you agree?

I think if she knew she could have accepted Jon much more, maybe even love him almost as a son, ignoring public shame (male nobles having bastards was'nt THAT big deal), knowing deep down her husband has been ever loyal to her

But still was unacceptable risk
Let's say life of one of her real sons was at risk (and ALL have been) she would have sold Jon's secret without think twice to save one of them

Robert killing Jon was VERY possible
Only chance would have been spare his life to honor his friendship with Ned, but reality is unlike the tv version clown even older/fatter Robert deep down still was an instinctive murderer and memory of Lyanna loss his worst trigger... my guess is would have killed Jon in a burst of rage and only afterward try repair things with Ned, saying he just killed the result of rape of his sister don't be mad at me bro let's drink a beer

Ned knew him better than anybody and rightfully did'nt trusted him over that

Ultimately Ned did best choice he could, and they've been also lucky Jon was born super Stark looking
 
Well keeping that promise to a girl who's actions had led to 1000s of deaths, meant that 20 years later 1000s more had to die, too.

Protecting the secrets of your family at the cost of so much death and suffering of others, doesn't sound particularly noble to me.

Jaime breaking his oath, and sacrificing his honour, to do the right thing seems a lot more noble to me.......not that he did not also do some crap to protect his own family, too.

If you think Ned was a beacon of goodness in a white cowboy hat, you don't know how GRRM viewed the feudal system ASOIAF or his views on war in general.

Ned was very much closer to white than black, but circumstance put him in some no win situations.

As you say......he followed his own code of morality. Doesn't mean it was a noble code by everyone else's perspective.
Does it? Ned keeping Jon's heritage a secret isnt what starts off the conflict, thats down to Joffery being a bastard and the politics between the Lannister's and others.

The situation with Joffrey as well I don't think is just "honour" and simplified morality, if it was then arguebly he would let it slide. That he doesnt I would argue is because he views the Lannisters having that degree of power as bad and Joffery as a very unfit king.

Ned did break his oath to the king as well when he originally took out arms and I think what we see of the character most likely he would have killed Aerys as well.
 
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