Was comeback Foreman a scam?

[TheGreatA]

You're right but that's Holyfield not Briggs.

Holyfield threw a lot of elbows against Foreman. He was always doing that sort of stuff and somehow the referees never called him out on it.

He looked a bit pissed off about the fact that he wasn't able to budge this old guy.

Foreman dropped the "Old Mongoose" style cross-arm guard after this fight because he felt like it just made him a sitting duck for punches. It was supposed to be combined with upperbody movement and counter hooks, but Foreman was too slow and stiff to pull that off. He went back to his old "Mummy" style as Ali called it, and I suppose it was the right move since it won the belt for him against Moorer.

 

[defjaam]

Ali would take him in 64-75, after that Ali couldn't whip much of anyone.

I recall a video from Richard Dwyer (YouTube) in which he suggested that George could have beaten Ali in 74 if he had just jabbed Ali on the ropes instead of going nuclear on him.

@sweetviolenturg also once mentioned a private conversation he had with Angelo Dundee once, which I'll quote here:

I don't think that Ali would have been able to repeat the victory over Foreman had there been a rematch though. And Angelo Dundee told me as much back in 1985 when we had a conversation about the Foreman fight.
He said that Ali fought the perfect fight under the perfect set of circumstances that October night in 1974 & that repeating it would have been extremely difficult for him. And that it would have been impossible for him after his third fight with Frazier because of how much that fight took out of Ali. He was a shell of his former self afterward. His legs were pretty much shot & the snap on his punches was gone. Dundee said he couldn't have kept Foreman honest in a rematch & that George would have likely walked right through him. Which is why they never intended to fight him again. He said that Foreman's upset loss to Jimmy Young was the only thing that kept Ali in the game post-1976. He had fully intended on retiring after the Norton rubber match but when Foreman lost to Young & subsequently retired for a decade that Ali decided to keep going. Thus the hastily arranged title defense vs the undeserving Alfredo Evangelista in May of '77.

So to me this sort of seems as if George could've won the match in 74 already if he had played it smarter. What if he asserted himself against Don King and demanded the event to take place in Madison Square Garden instead of Africa?

Anyway, what happened, happened.

 

[mozfonky]

I recall a video from Richard Dwyer (YouTube) in which he suggested that George could have beaten Ali in 74 if he had just jabbed Ali on the ropes instead of going nuclear on him.

@sweetviolenturg also once mentioned a private conversation he had with Angelo Dundee once, which I'll quote here:



So to me this sort of seems as if George could've won the match in 74 already if he had played it smarter. What if he asserted himself against Don King and demanded the event to take place in Madison Square Garden instead of Africa?

Anyway, what happened, happened.

Ya, I remember Sweet posting that. I don't think George could have beaten him in Zaire because Ali was just too smart for him. The reason I think George could have pulled it off in the right circumstances, post 75, post-manila is that Ali truly was finished after that, truly was damaged goods. Just look at his fights after that, it's more than him not showing up in shape, which was the case for almost every fight except for the Norton3 and Spinks 2 fights, he just wasn't the same. It's a significant statistic that after kayoing Richard Dunn, he never scored another knockdown again or knockout. He held on to his title with help from the judges and his own boxing brain and great heart. People still think he got gifts against , pick them, Norton (3), Jimmy Young, or Earnie Shavers. That's a lot more close, gift decisions than most of our great Champions get. Joe Louis got one with Jersey Joe, Holmes got one or maybe two if you count the Witherspoon fight, Ali got several and even Spinks 1 was a split decision, which is ridiculous because he hardly won a round.

 

[defjaam]

Ya, I remember Sweet posting that. I don't think George could have beaten him in Zaire because Ali was just too smart for him. The reason I think George could have pulled it off in the right circumstances, post 75, post-manila is that Ali truly was finished after that, truly was damaged goods. Just look at his fights after that, it's more than him not showing up in shape, which was the case for almost every fight except for the Norton3 and Spinks 2 fights, he just wasn't the same. It's a significant statistic that after kayoing Richard Dunn, he never scored another knockdown again or knockout. He held on to his title with help from the judges and his own boxing brain and great heart. People still think he got gifts against , pick them, Norton (3), Jimmy Young, or Earnie Shavers. That's a lot more close, gift decisions than most of our great Champions get. Joe Louis got one with Jersey Joe, Holmes got one or maybe two if you count the Witherspoon fight, Ali got several and even Spinks 1 was a split decision, which is ridiculous because he hardly won a round.

I still wonder how much truth there is to George being drugged. I know George still believes something was off, he'll take it to the grave, but he obviously doesn't say it publicly anymore.

His corner was definitely giving him false instructions. Even Joe Frazier was commenting at ringside that George is falling for Ali's strategy.
That doesn't necessarily mean anything though. Rob McCracken was also giving Joshua false information during the first Usyk fight. Coaches make mistakes.

 

[mozfonky]

I still wonder how much truth there is to George being drugged. I know George still believes something was off, he'll take it to the grave, but he obviously doesn't say it publicly anymore.

His corner was definitely giving him false instructions. Even Joe Frazier was commenting at ringside that George is falling for Ali's strategy.
That doesn't necessarily mean anything though. Rob McCracken was also giving Joshua false information during the first Usyk fight. Coaches make mistakes.

George had a million excuses after that fight, like a lot of fighters. Some of them were definitely true, he claimed the ref rushed the count, for whatever reason, the ref did do that. He was saying he was drugged in the 90's when his book came out. Claimed someone in his corner gave him something that tasted like medicine.

As far as his corner, I think he just wasn't listening to a word anyone said, if they were giving him good advice. He was pretty full of himself at that stage of his life. Some have pointed out how George's trainer, Dick Sadler, was later spotted in Ali's camp but that's just boxing. Dick was once in talks to be Ali's trainer at the beginning of his career, it didn't work out because he said Ali was too crazy and drove him nuts (go figure) and later told Dundee that he should get a medal for putting up with that kid. But, they were clearly on friendly terms, even before the Foreman fight where Ali chases Sadler around. Archie Moorer was also an early Clay trainer but to think he sabotaged his own man, nah. I think George said he looked to archie for the signal to get up and Archie waited too long to give him a sign to get up. If he did, why would he do that. Archie didn't personally get along with Ali, lost to him by kayo and I can't see why he'd want to see him win.

As far as sweets post, I just don't know. Dundee said a lot of things and they have a kernel of truth to them. He once said George Chuvalo "mighta got lucky" against Ali if he had jabbed with him. that could have been true, Chuvalo gave Ali rough fights both times and if he'd thrown a jab he would have fared better in the way Norton did. Not many folks jabbed with Ali, Norton jabbed simultaneously with Ali and that caused Ali tons of problems. He wasn't used to it.

 

[dog y]

You're right but that's Holyfield not Briggs.

Thanks. Yet another reason to love Mr. Clean Holyfield lol

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Holyfield threw a lot of elbows against Foreman. He was always doing that sort of stuff and somehow the referees never called him out on it.

He looked a bit pissed off about the fact that he wasn't able to budge this old guy.

Foreman dropped the "Old Mongoose" style cross-arm guard after this fight because he felt like it just made him a sitting duck for punches. It was supposed to be combined with upperbody movement and counter hooks, but Foreman was too slow and stiff to pull that off. He went back to his old "Mummy" style as Ali called it, and I suppose it was the right move since it won the belt for him against Moorer.

Yeah Holyfield did look discouraged with Foreman's ability to absorb the punishment he was dishing out. Foreman could still take a punch even at 42. I believe that having 49 lbs on Holyfield made him tougher to put a dent in.

 

[mozfonky]

George still used crossed arm in the coetzer fight I think but ya it's a style that's hard to punch out of if nothing else.

As far as holyfield and his butts and elbows, he was always dirty and wasn't seen that way until late in his career but his opponents were telling us the whole time.