War Room Lounge v97: Jesus Christ, you're even pedantic with foreplay.

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I think there's good reason to think that it doesn't work that way, but I don't see it as contemptible at all. Especially since we're talking about people who were writing in a very different time. Isn't your thinking--that we want diversity of expression--along the same lines?

No, I don't think that the process converges to truth necessarily. It's just silliness to think so. I think the freedom to do so is important in itself, not because it's epistemically efficient.

Also, if we reject that framework, what happens to our thinking about free speech? How should it change?

I don't think the framework that I bolded is really as foundational as the ''trade-off'' paradigm that I'm attacking.
 
What if child pornography is “engraved” on your heart? That person shouldn’t sacrifice anything? Someone always sacrifices something, that’s life. I’d prefer the child rapist sacrifice something rather than the child.

I find the “no restrictions” crowd to be just as unrealistic as the communists, for the exact same reason.

I'm not part of the ''no restrictions'' crowd.

The ''engraved on your heart'' bit from Rousseau is taken to mean that which makes us human, which I would suggest is not child pornography. He goes on to say ''he who gives of himself to everyman, gives of himself to no man.'' Not that ''everything goes.''
 
I'm not part of the ''no restrictions'' crowd.

The ''engraved on your heart'' bit from Rousseau is taken to mean that which makes us human, which I would suggest is not child pornography. He goes on to say ''he who gives of himself to everyman, gives of himself to no man.'' Not that ''everything goes.''

Who gets to determine what makes us human, though?

Rousseau's definition may have differed somewhat from, for example, Chinese philosophers.

If we use a loose, subjective ideal of "what makes us human" the standard based on which we regulate speech, we may come up with all sorts of outcomes, some of which are not necessarily positive to anybody involved. Our sensibilities, our emotions, our instincts, may be abused to excuse all manners of restrictions to speech, provided that we have been conditioned to respond negatively to what is being restricted.
 
No, I don't think that the process converges to truth necessarily. It's just silliness to think so. I think the freedom to do so is important in itself, not because it's epistemically efficient.

I don't think the framework that I bolded is really as foundational as the ''trade-off'' paradigm that I'm attacking.

The process doesn't generally converge to truth. Agreed. For some groups of people, in some settings, it can and does, and that's still important.

It seems to me that if you reject the idea that freedom to tell the truth to the best of your ability is fundamental to a well-functioning society because it leads to a better understanding it becomes less a matter of principle and more of a good to strive for--like better health outcomes or lower unemployment. That's fine (I'd agree that free speech does function that way and that people defending it as a principle are probably partly doing it as a rationalization for why they should have a good that they like), but it feels somewhat unsatisfying and precarious.
 
lol love that Gabbard is suing Shillary for being a hateful cunt.
but she better be careful.
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Who gets to determine what makes us human, though?

Rousseau's definition may have differed somewhat from, for example, Chinese philosophers.

If we use a loose, subjective ideal of "what makes us human" the standard based on which we regulate speech, we may come up with all sorts of outcomes, some of which are not necessarily positive to anybody involved.

That's the question, isn't it. Who, how, and why. But at least that actually is the question, IMO.
 
lol love that Gabbard is suing Shillary for being a hateful cunt.
but she better be careful.

I'm sure that Gabbard's alt-right supporters will be upset about her use of frivolous litigation to silence political opposition due to their principled belief in free speech.
 
That's the question, isn't it. Who, how, and why. But at least that actually is the question, IMO.

When it comes to liberty, whether it be free speech or something else, I tend to think about in terms of what has been done to me by previous generations, and what I should do for future generations. If, let's say, a man from the 19th century risked death, risked violence, risked revolutions, to fight in favour of free speech, despite everything encouraging him not to, what's my excuse to not elaborate upon that right and push it even further?

I mean, what are we risking nowadays? Hurt emotions? People shaking because of reacting negatively to something that's usually taken off context? Corporations losing money from customers because of a backlash to what their employer has said? These are not the same kind of dangers that our ancestors faced, when they fought in favour of the liberties that we now have. Not even close.

Keeping that in mind, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do our absolute best to elaborate upon any freedoms that we have, to their fullest extent. Being trolled on the internet is not the same as being strung up by an angry mob who felt like you insulted God or whatever. We are not dealing with these sorts of consequences any more, and in spite of those consequences, people fought for liberty nonetheless.

We have to atleast try to retain the same toughness of mind and spirit, which drove the previous generations to push the boundaries of liberty, despite all seemingly "common sense" which spoke against it, the constant presence of violence, outraged reactions, lynch mobs being formed, government oppression, loss of social status and family. Otherwise we run the risk of stagnation, of accepting things as they are, "fine the way they are", a mentality which would have produced absolutely nothing for us, had it been applied centuries earlier.
 
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When it comes to liberty, whether it be free speech or something else, I tend to think about in terms of what has been done to me by previous generations, and what I should do for future generations. If, let's say, a man from the 19th century risked death, risked violence, risked revolutions, to fight in favour of free speech, despite everything encouraging him not to, what's my excuse to not elaborate upon that right and push it even further?

I mean, what are we risking nowadays? Hurt emotions? People shaking because of reacting negatively to something that's usually taken off context? Corporations losing money from customers because of a backlash to what their employer has said? These are not the same kind of dangers that our ancestors faced, when they fought in favour of the liberties that we now have. Not even close.

Keeping that in mind, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do our absolute best to elaborate upon any freedoms that we have, to their fullest extent. Being trolled on the internet is not the same as being strung up by an angry mob who felt like you insulted God or whatever. We are not dealing with these sorts of consequences any more, and in spite of those consequences, people fought for liberty nonetheless.

We have to atleast try to retain the same toughness of mind and spirit, which drove the previous generations to push the boundaries of liberty, despite all seemingly "common sense" which spoke against it, the constant presence of violence, outraged reactions, lynch mobs being formed, government oppression, loss of social status and family. Otherwise we run the risk of stagnation, of accepting things as they are, "fine the way they are", a mentality which would have produced absolutely nothing for us, had it been applied centuries earlier.

I get what you're saying. I do think, though, that when most thinkers from Hobbes to Goebbels identify something as the central problem of our current societal order, that we should take it seriously. This isn't counter to your point, but an elaboration of it. Right now, we're basically more free to say anything than we've ever been and I'm not exactly arguing against the current state of affairs. I will just surmise that the fact we're not seriously risking violence is because of something unrelated to speech, or ideas. Because all the same odious ideas that were motivating people in Weimar germany are having something of a hay day (at least compared to recent history). But we don't really see the same results. It's not because the ideas can't lead to the same results, but that something else is preventing it. I personally think that it's because most people just ain't cut out for that shit anymore. In this sense, the pussification of the western male has been a happy development. If we were our grandfathers, I think there would be blood running in the streets.

I have another tangent, though: it seems to me like freedom of speech has always been a proxy for something else. What if there were no restrictions on speech at all but you could never influence society with your words? I don't think most people would go for that (even though most of us will never say anything that will shape our world). So what is it a proxy for?
 
@Lead, now that he's gone, can that be revealed?

I’d have to look into it but there are so many of these new accounts that it never seems worth it to check a blue belt that already messed up (likely again)
 
I'm sure that Gabbard's alt-right supporters will be upset about her use of frivolous litigation to silence political opposition due to their principled belief in free speech.
Is that how you characterize Hillary's actions, 'political opposition' and under the auspices of 'free speech." How disingenuous of you.
Smarten up, Jack

My glee is more due to the fact that someone is standing up to the Queen of Mean.
I'm not familiar with Gabbard or her supporters or their beliefs and, frankly, it's not relevant
to my sentiment or opinion.
 
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I just want to say that I find the bolded to be particularly contemptible. Like, I know people think this and I just...don't get it. Are they not paying attention? What's to say we don't just get into an infinite loop of full retard without making any progress whatsoever. You know the type: the ''what about [thing that has been hashed out 1000 times before, in texts that he has never heard of].'' There's one born every minute. What's to say that the stuff we're even talking about is even on the bleeding edge, or that we would tend towards it?



Yes, it is a basic will to power. If Trump were to Putin some journalists at CNN, people who claim to care about free speech would find a way to support it in the interest of breaking eggs to make an omelette to their taste.
Proko technological progress keeps the first part in check. And if no tech progress, the rest stops mattering so much anyway. imo
 
Is that how you characterize Hillary's actions, 'political opposition' and under the auspices of 'free speech." How disingenuous of you.

???

My glee is more due to the fact that someone is standing up to the Queen of Mean.
I'm not familiar with Gabbard or her supporters or their beliefs and, frankly, it's not relevant
to my sentiment or opinion.

Yeah, good to see someone finally be the billionth person to stand up to a retired politician with a reputation as being the opposite of mean.
 
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