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War Room Lounge v53: Short Notice

How do you sleep?


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Mom stole your plums again, didn't she?
<DCrying>

All of this stuff already happens. And actually, crime has fallen dramatically over the past 30 years.

It doesn't happen to the extent it needs to. Not even close.

Violent crime rates quadrupled over the time from the start of the civil rights movement + "War on Poverty" (~1965) to the signing of the 1994 crime bill. Yeah, mass incarceration reduces violent crime. It doesn't solve the root problem and causes other problems.

So isn't it more of a Mayberry or Great Beyond thread?

No, because it makes a crucial meta point about many of the policy discussions that we see in the War Room.

Including all costs, Philadelphia spends about $14,000 per student (3 billion / 203,00 students)
This is correct. The number I quoted in the flash mob thread was similar and I misremembered for this thread. The point stays intact and thank you for the correction.

God forbid we spend any tax money trying to educate those dummies' kids. We should just shame their parents, that's what I call culture.
Nice strawman. I won't hold my breath for a serious conversation out of you.

Apparently the point stands despite this!

Of course it does, unless you think $14,000 per pupil per year is not enough.
 
Uhhh....what? I don't know if you're making shit up or just misread something, but you're way off.


https://www.inquirer.com/philly/edu...ing-lawsuit-rich-poor-districts-20180706.html

Including all costs, Philadelphia spends about $14,000 per student (3 billion / 203,00 students)
https://www.education.pa.gov/Teachers - Administrators/School Finances/Finances/AFR Data Summary/Pages/AFR-Data-Summary-Level.aspx#.VZvrX2XD-Uk

For comparison, New York spends $21,000 per student and New Jersey spends $189,000 per student.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/16/the-5-states-that-spend-the-most-on-students.html
Apparently the point stands despite this!
 
Jaime, play that clip again
hqdefault.jpg

J'accuse! I came across that clip of my own youtube explorations, I will have the record show.
 
Violent crime rates quadrupled over the time from the start of the civil rights movement + "War on Poverty" (~1965) to the signing of the 1994 crime bill. Yeah, mass incarceration reduces violent crime. It doesn't solve the root problem and causes other problems.

Your theory about "mass incarceration" (vague term) reducing violent crime is poorly supported.

No, because it makes a crucial meta point about many of the policy discussions that we see in the War Room.

It doesn't, though. If you wanted to start a thread making a meta point about policy discussions, it would be a different thread. Wouldn't just be, "here's a video of one of the crimes that happened in America recently."

This is correct. The number I quoted in the flash mob thread was similar and I misremembered for this thread. The point stays intact and thank you for the correction.

Seems that such a big error would be highly material to your argument, were it made in good faith.
 
<DCrying>



It doesn't happen to the extent it needs to. Not even close.

Violent crime rates quadrupled over the time from the start of the civil rights movement + "War on Poverty" (~1965) to the signing of the 1994 crime bill. Yeah, mass incarceration reduces violent crime. It doesn't solve the root problem and causes other problems.



No, because it makes a crucial meta point about many of the policy discussions that we see in the War Room.


This is correct. The number I quoted in the flash mob thread was similar and I misremembered for this thread. The point stays intact and thank you for the correction.


Nice strawman. I won't hold my breath for a serious conversation out of you.



Of course it does, unless you think $14,000 per pupil per year is not enough.
That god damn Civil Rights movement! A pox, I say!!!
 
Seems that such a big error would be highly material to your argument, were it made in good faith.
I think it's clear to a lot of us around here that he's incapable or unwilling to do anything in good faith lmao
 
Of course it does, unless you think $14,000 per pupil per year is not enough.
I don't know how one can make useful conclusions on policy based on this incident or costs of education for that matter. Without context, the cost per student number is not particularly helpful for anything but a knee jerk reaction. It's useless unless it is accompanied with relative cost of living in the district and comparable performance metrics.
 
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Nice strawman. I won't hold my breath for a serious conversation out of you.
Huh? You literally said we shouldn't spend any more money on education (and stuck by it even after your numbers were corrected by @Trotsky), and that we should shame people in order to change the culture. Do you know what a strawman is, or are you a product of the Philly education system (I kid, I kid @PolishHeadlock2 ).
 
Youtube comments, Twitter comments...

actually any on line commenting section represents a very dark prism of how some people think...

it's all entirely disgusting. I mean, there are some gems out there, and hilarious comments but these commenting sections reflect a very ugly side of people.

 
Your theory about "mass incarceration" (vague term) reducing violent crime is poorly supported.

I guess you haven't read a representative sample of the research in this area. Here's a sample for the masses from Stephen Dubner's Freakonomics:



During the first half of the twentieth century, the incidence of violent crime in the United States was, for the most part, fairly steady. But in the early 1960s, it began to climb. In retrospect, it is clear that one of the major factors pushing this trend was a more lenient justice system. Conviction rates declined during the 1960s, and criminals who were convicted served shorter sentences. This trend was driven in part by an expansion in the rights of people accused of crimes—a long overdue expansion, some would argue. (Others would argue that the expansion went too far.) At the same time, politicians were growing increasingly softer on crime—“for fear of sounding racist,” as the economist Gary Becker has written, “since African-Americans and Hispanics commit a disproportionate share of felonies.” So if you
were the kind of person who might want to commit a crime, the incentives were lining up in your favor: a slimmer likelihood of being convicted and, if convicted, a shorter prison term. Because criminals respond to incentives as readily as anyone, the result was a surge in crime.

It took some time, and a great deal of political turmoil, but these incentives were eventually curtailed. Criminals who would have previously been set free—for drug-related offenses and parole revocation
in particular—were instead locked up. Between 1980 and 2000, there was a fifteenfold increase in the number of people sent to prison on drug charges. Many other sentences, especially for violent crime, were
lengthened. The total effect was dramatic. By 2000, more than two million people were in prison, roughly four times the number as of 1972. Fully half of that increase took place during the 1990s.

The evidence linking increased punishment with lower crime rates is very strong. Harsh prison terms have been shown to act as both deterrent (for the would-be criminal on the street) and prophylactic (for the would-be criminal who is already locked up). Logical as this may sound, some criminologists have fought the logic. A 1977 academic study called “On Behalf of a Moratorium on Prison Construction” noted that crime rates tend to be high when imprisonment rates are high, and concluded that crime would fall if imprisonment rates could only be lowered. (Fortunately, jailers did not suddenly turn loose their wards and sit back waiting for crime to fall. As the political scientist John J. DiIulio Jr. later commented, “Apparently, it takes a Ph.D. in criminology to doubt that keeping dangerous criminals incarcerated cuts crime.”)

The “Moratorium” argument rests on a fundamental confusion of correlation and causality...

There are certainly plenty of reasons to dislike the huge surge in the prison population. Not everyone is pleased that such a significant fraction of Americans, especially black Americans, live behind bars. Nor does prison even begin to address the root causes of crime, which are diverse and complex. Lastly, prison is hardly a cheap solution: it costs about $25,000 a year to keep someone incarcerated. But if the goal here is to explain the drop in crime in the 1990s, imprisonment is certainly one of the key answers. It accounts for roughly one-third of the drop in crime.
 
That god damn Civil Rights movement! A pox, I say!!!
iu


I don't know how one can make useful conclusions on policy based on this incident or costs of education for that matter. Without context, the cost per student number is not particularly helpful for anything but a knee jerk reaction. It's useless unless it is accompanied with relative cost of living in the district and comparable performance metrics.

Again, this was a response to someone who claimed that a good way to prevent these raids is to spend more on "education". One good thing about us humans is that we have the capacity for common sense. Do you think that doubling per pupil spending to $28,000 in Philadelphia would have had a good shot at preventing this incident? I don't. The point is that merely spending on "education" is not going to come anywhere close to solving the root problem, which is one of human motivation.

Huh? You literally said we shouldn't spend any more money on education
Wrong. I disputed 7437's claim that increased "education spending" would be likely to prevent the group of 60 Philadelphia kids from raiding the Walgreens.
and that we should shame people in order to change the culture.

Yes. We should do that. Don't you agree?
 
iu




Again, this was a response to someone who claimed that a good way to prevent these raids is to spend more on "education". One good thing about us humans is that we have the capacity for common sense. Do you think that doubling per pupil spending to $28,000 in Philadelphia would have had a good shot at preventing this incident? I don't. The point is that merely spending on "education" is not going to come anywhere close to solving the root problem, which is one of human motivation.


Wrong. I disputed 7437's claim that increased "education spending" would be likely to prevent the group of 60 Philadelphia kids from raiding the Walgreens.


Yes. We should do that. Don't you agree?
Can you honestly read some of the threads here about black people and think that shaming is what is needed?
 
I guess you haven't read a representative sample of the research in this area. Here's a sample for the masses from Stephen Dubner's Freakonomics:

I read Freakonomics, which has a lot of problems. But even if Levitt is right (which he isn't), the effect isn't large enough to justify this comment:

"Violent crime rates quadrupled over the time from the start of the civil rights movement + "War on Poverty" (~1965) to the signing of the 1994 crime bill. Yeah, mass incarceration reduces violent crime. It doesn't solve the root problem and causes other problems."

Better piece on it:

http://johnjay.jjay.cuny.edu/nrc/NAS_report_on_incarceration.pdf

Search for "Estimating the Total Effect of Incarceration on Crime," though there's a lot in there that you'd appreciate if you were genuinely interested in the issue.

The best summary here is that it's hard to tell what the net impact of "mass incarceration" on crime is, but that it can't be that large (certainly not as large as Levitt claims) or it would be more visible.
 
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I saw a BBC nature video of a pack of chimpanzees hunting colobus monkeys. That one actually had me a little shook. The camera zooms in on the colobus monkey's face when it's being disemboweled alive by the chimpanzee. It was like 28 days later, monkey edition.
That sounds awsome, but I'm sure I would be horrified after watching it. So thanks but no thanks.
 
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