Social War Room Lounge v260: Pls no bully Geg

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Respecting canon has no consideration in art? Can't say I agree. If I make a movie where the character and story are an allegory for the story of Jesus, the canon story of Jesus as depicted in the King James Bible is going to have ramifications for my own and if I wildly deviate from that then I don't think the movie would work.

Obviously the Batman canon hardly compares to the Bible but the point is working within canon absolutely has a place within serious art.

I like the first two Raimi Spiderman films and Spiderman Homecoming was cool. That said I see where you're coming from.

I think people misdiagnose the problem with Superman. People will often say something like the problem with him is that he's too overpowered. But that's why his main nemesis is Lex Luthor, a powerful businessman integrated into mainstream society who he can't confront with brute force. And sure he's an alien but the whole point of the character is that even an (illegal?)alien from a different galaxy can become not just an American but a great American and an embodiment of all that's good in America.

I've said this elsewhere but I think the problem with Superman is that he has the ethos of a New Deal Democrat with a middle America flavor and people on both the left and right find that alien(pun intended). Right wingers prefer heroes like Batman and the Punisher and leftists prefer more urban, diverse heroes that you tend to find in the Marvel canon. If someone could really write an authentic Superman I think it has the potential to realty resonate with Americans but its an uphill battle

Iron Man probably has the most mass appeal because he embodies a lot of(I would say largely negative and distasteful) trends and notions in modern society; his abilities play to notions of scientism, his lifestyle to our admiration of wealth and hedonism, and his personality to our absolute allergy to sincerity and our preference for ironic detachment and snark. I really hate RDJ's Iron Man even though I give the actor massive credit for his performance as the character.

Bruce Wayne is also a playboy but in the Nolan trilogy the playboy dimension is more of an act, something Wayne plays up as a cover. RDJ's Iron Man is an unironic playboy which to me is really off putting.

You're really hitting homeruns tonight. Good commentary in re Superman and Ironman. I agree about the toxic play boy portrayal in the latter, although I didn't take as much issue with it until I saw it again years later.

I didn't see Homecoming, but I meant to mention the Raimi Spiderman films as being pretty good. I still wouldn't call them definitively good films, but they were well above most. I really liked the lighting and cinematography. I felt they struck a nice balance of a comic-tinted real world. Not gritty or gothic like Batman, but no music video pop like the later Marvel movies.

Actually Nolan is borrowing heavily from established cannon when he does. The Killing Joke is the best example of this.

Yeah, TKJ had the Joker employing the "one bad day" philosophy, but it still had the character as a failed standup comedian who falls into a chemical vat. Which is hella lame. The "nobody laughs!" frame....no thanks, man.
 
As for Batman Returns being pretentious or an art film I can't really think of a superhero movie that takes itself less seriously and has more fun with the garishness of comic book aesthetic. The Penguin literally rides on a big rubber ducky. Superhero movies that have giant battles in New York that evoke 9/11 probably have more of a right to be called pretentious.
 
It's crazy, think of it like this. Batman and even fucking Bruce get considered villains. But the Joker? Decent following, even though his entire profile is completely in the open. While it's just a movie, it's real life too, the way he's dressed, portrayed, the pretend sob story of the system, his ability to be funny and charismatic. He's completely mentally ill and a dangerous problem, yet he get's written off at times and people even sympathize with him.



same with Harley Quinn. The joker has been popularized in the last 20 years. Sure he was always Batman’s main rogue gallery villain but his popularity really grew from the movies.

as you know I’m a long time comic book reader and I don’t think the Joker was ever looked at as being a really sympathetic character Before that.


I might even type up a long winded post about batman and his ever changing mythos throughout the years.
 
Let me ask this.

Superman can basically use his powers to listen to everyone’s conversations at the same time. He can listen to anything he wants. The police, lawyers, government officials behind the scenes. Mafia types, street thugs, gang bangers, drug dealers.


Does this make superman a villain as well?
 
Let me ask this.

Superman can basically use his powers to listen to everyone’s conversations at the same time. He can listen to anything he wants. The police, lawyers, government officials behind the scenes. Mafia types, street thugs, gang bangers, drug dealers.


Does this make superman a villain as well?

Sounds like government.
 
Let me ask this.

Superman can basically use his powers to listen to everyone’s conversations at the same time. He can listen to anything he wants. The police, lawyers, government officials behind the scenes. Mafia types, street thugs, gang bangers, drug dealers.


Does this make superman a villain as well?
I'm not familiar with Superman but if he circumvents due process by beating the shit out of people then maybe he is.
 
I don't agree but I haven't seen someone try it so who knows. I'm not saying that telling a story as it was written is bad, I'm saying that if the story you are trying to tell can't be told how you want because of concerns over canon or money that's a problem.

I think you can absolutely tear up cannon and make great stuff. Make superman evil, etc. but that’s intentional. But building up universes with known characters, ongoing plots, etc. would be meaningless with trying to faith to historical character. Why even have a Bond film if you are going to have him be a Russian fortune teller.
 
Could be.

But somehow you feel bad for the Joker.

You try and show some due process while trying to capture Doomsday or Sinestro or magneto.

beating them up comes first. There is no way around that I’m sorry to say.
 
That is so well put lol. 89 was not as bad, but it was still somewhat gothy and fake.

My favorite depiction other than The Dark Knight was the Mask of the Phantasm.

No real backstory for the Joker there, other than him formerly being a mob enforcer or hired gun at some point, but he serves to represent a specter of the past and the prior misdeeds of the characters (although the titular Phantasm is facially represented as that). With the climax occurring in that decrepit futuristic theme park, representing the idealistic future that never happened and just sits, rotting and haunted. He's the embodiment of what time has wrought: similar to what Kafir said, he's the complete corruption, the Phantasm is the incomplete corruption, and Batman/Bruce Wayne is the still-pure tragic hero. Just beautiful stuff for an animated movie.

@Khabib Khanate
 
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But somehow you feel bad for the Joker.

You try and show some due process while trying to capture Doomsday or Sinestro or magneto.

beating them up comes first. There is no way around that I’m sorry to say.
I feel bad for Batman too, doesn't mean he isn't villainous.
 
I'm not familiar with Superman but if he circumvents due process by beating the shit out of people then maybe he is.

But homie ain't actually government. Due process isn't his problem. Catching a charge as a vigilante...
 
But somehow you feel bad for the Joker.

You try and show some due process while trying to capture Doomsday or Sinestro or magneto.

beating them up comes first. There is no way around that I’m sorry to say.
She’s a woman dude. They are wired different.
 
I feel bad for Batman too, doesn't mean he isn't villainous.


Well considering he saved Gotham and all it’s citizens in batman begins (which happened before Dark Knight) id say you need to take a huge leap to turn batman into a villain. He risked his life to save the city from the league of shadows.

he even tried to destroy the league of shadows instead of killing a man they caught stealing. He gave up both his lives, one life as a member of the league of shadows, the other as a businessman, to focus on saving others.

this is just from the movies too. If we talk about the comics Id say batman has helped save the universe many times over.
 
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