Social War Room Lounge v260: Pls no bully Geg

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

I guess they would turn him bad if the point of the film was that the things he believes in are bad, such as the scene I pointed to. I agree that it doesn't make sense for the film to turn him bad if they don't see those things as being bad.

It doesn’t make sense at all because batman isn’t a bad guy to begin with.

Comparing him to villains doesn’t make any sense at all. Bruce Wayne using surveillance doesn’t make him a villain. It takes a huge stretch of logic to even get to that idea.

 

[Trotsky]

Maybe a problem for me is I feel so much love for the Joker and don't find him irredeemable. I think he is the one who exposes the dangerous hyper masculinity of Batman and truly does seem himself in that character. I think that character has such a remarkable way of exuding the pain that comes from rejection or oppression, when he is caught off guard by Gamble calling him a freak and he seems genuinely hurt by it that is beautiful. But the way he is treated by the film, as you said, irredeemable, rubs me the wrong way.

I think Kafir is talking more generally. I do agree that TDK made the Joker much more of a near-antihero than any other depiction (although he does still represent the complete corruption of a person, as well as the evil of moral hyper-relativism). And it's what made it by far the best depiction of the character ever IMO. But in the general mythos, the Joker is completely irredeemable and not so ideological. Nolan made him a force of nature created by systems of brutality and their contradictions. But in pretty much every other depiction, he's just a narcissistic asshole and kind of a hapless boob.

Every single MCU film is better than anything Burton has done in the genre. X-men were better (and there was some big misses there), the crow is better, Shazam is prob better (have not seen it).

I have strong opinions on Batman, but I'm probably giving off the impression that I'm more versed in the general subject matter than I am. I saw two, maybe three of the X-Men films but just wasn't interested in the subject matter at all.

 

[Gandhi]

I think Aliens and the Terminator justify a bit more, and TDK is more pretentious than those two.

The robot from the future and the alien that lays eggs in you is as absurd as it gets. Again Batman is not supposed to Falling Down of Taxi Driver. It’s hitting that middle road of serious but free from certain rules without entering the world of a Never Ending Story. Burton is pretentious.

Sorry I didn't realize this was welltrodden territory.

LOL and I am doing it again, sorry guys!!!

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Batman Returns is my favorite superhero movie lol.

Penguins are adorable tbf

@Gandhi you cold hearted bastard

 

[Sketch]

Sorry, like four people are disagreeing with me so the speed at which I can reply to all of these is limited lol. He has emotions for Batman, tells him he loves him and gives him earnest advice about how society treats outcasts. I would think his motive is to destroy a system that he finds to be oppressive. The fact that he murders people doesn't really move me considering he is a movie character lol.

He only enjoys Batman because Batman is fun, Batman is the only one who can compete with him and his schemes. He doesn't love Batman, he's not even capable of it. He's about a rush, a simple thrill, even the longevity of a play on someone over time. His entire theme is all about him, he keeps his main adversary which is Batman alive so he can play cat and mouse with him in which he is always the cat.

 

[Gandhi]

Penguins are adorable tbf

@Gandhi you cold hearted bastard

Penguins are great @Cubo de Sangre

Rocket penguins make the baby Jesus sherdog cry!!!

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

And everyone knows Sin City was the best comic book movie.

 

[Sketch]

It doesn’t make sense at all because batman isn’t a bad guy to begin with.

Comparing him to villains doesn’t make any sense at all. Bruce Wayne using surveillance doesn’t make him a villain. It takes a huge stretch of logic to even get to that idea.

It's crazy, think of it like this. Batman and even fucking Bruce get considered villains. But the Joker? Decent following, even though his entire profile is completely in the open. While it's just a movie, it's real life too, the way he's dressed, portrayed, the pretend sob story of the system, his ability to be funny and charismatic. He's completely mentally ill and a dangerous problem, yet he get's written off at times and people even sympathize with him.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Yes, that is exactly my point. I know a studio would never turn Batman into a villain for reasons of canon, considerations like this have no place in serious art, to me.

Respecting canon has no consideration in art? Can't say I agree. If I make a movie where the character and story are an allegory for the story of Jesus, the canon story of Jesus as depicted in the King James Bible is going to have ramifications for my own and if I wildly deviate from that then I don't think the movie would work.

Obviously the Batman canon hardly compares to the Bible but the point is working within canon absolutely has a place within serious art.

Ugh. I really can't say much good about it, from tone (Burton's usual strength) to plot (Burton's constant weakness).

But it's better than the average superhero film just based on production value. There are only a few films I would say are "good" in the genre: the Nolan trilogy, the first Iron Man, the GotG movies, Joker, Man of Steel, and...well, I guess that's it. Watchmen had some positive things but was superheroically boring. The Avenger movies are trash.

I like the first two Raimi Spiderman films and Spiderman Homecoming was cool. That said I see where you're coming from.

Bingo in re BTAS. If you grew up with BTAS, or to a lesser extent the Superman counterpart, you became used to a human element to the subject that was sorely missing from the big screen until Nolan. I thought they did a respectable job trying to do the same for Superman in Man of Steel, but it's much harder to strike that balance of realism when you're dealing with flying aliens and shit.

I think people misdiagnose the problem with Superman. People will often say something like the problem with him is that he's too overpowered. But that's why his main nemesis is Lex Luthor, a powerful businessman integrated into mainstream society who he can't confront with brute force. And sure he's an alien but the whole point of the character is that even an (illegal?)alien from a different galaxy can become not just an American but a great American and an embodiment of all that's good in America.

I've said this elsewhere but I think the problem with Superman is that he has the ethos of a New Deal Democrat with a middle America flavor and people on both the left and right find that alien(pun intended). Right wingers prefer heroes like Batman and the Punisher and leftists prefer more urban, diverse heroes that you tend to find in the Marvel canon. If someone could really write an authentic Superman I think it has the potential to really resonate with Americans but its an uphill battle

Iron Man probably has the most mass appeal because he embodies a lot of(I would say largely negative and distasteful) trends and notions in modern society; his abilities play to notions of scientism, his lifestyle to our admiration of wealth and hedonism, and his personality to our absolute allergy to sincerity and our preference for ironic detachment and snark. I really hate RDJ's Iron Man even though I give the actor massive credit for his performance as the character.

Bruce Wayne is also a playboy but in the Nolan trilogy the playboy dimension is more of an act, something Wayne plays up as a cover. RDJ's Iron Man is an unironic playboy which to me is really off putting.

 

[Trotsky]

The robot from the future and the alien that lays eggs in you is as absurd as it gets. Again Batman is not supposed to Falling Down of Taxi Driver. It’s hitting that middle road of serious but free from certain rules without entering the world of a Never Ending Story. Burton is pretentious.



LOL and I am doing it again, sorry guys!!!

Pretentiousness is such a subjective thing. Batman 89 didn't hit that note for me, but Batman Returns really did. It struck me as very pretentious and self-indulgent. Like an exhibitionist art film for dumb people.

 

[essie]

He only enjoys Batman because Batman is fun, Batman is the only one who can compete with him and his schemes. He doesn't love Batman, he's not even capable of it. He's about a rush, a simple thrill, even the longevity of a play on someone over time. His entire theme is all about him, he keeps his main adversary which is Batman alive so he can play cat and mouse with him in which he is always the cat.

I got the sense that his feelings for Batman were genuine but I could be reading it wrong. To be frank, I really don't have that much passion for the film or any superhero film for that matter (of the ones I have seen). It's always just struck me as loud and morally lost.

 

[sickness2.0]

Thinking of you. Take care.

Damn man, I am really sorry to hear that. Hope he pulls through with no complications.

thank you brother's for caring.

 

[Sketch]

And everyone knows Sin City was the best comic book movie.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

It’s why I always carry cuffs

 

[essie]

Respecting canon has no consideration in art? Can't say I agree. If I make a movie where the character and story are an allegory for the story of Jesus, the canon story of Jesus as depicted in the King James Bible is going to have ramifications for my own and if I wildly deviate from that then I don't think the movie would work.

Obviously the Batman canon hardly compares to the Bible but the point is working within canon absolutely has a place within serious art.

I like the first two Raimi Spiderman films and Spiderman Homecoming was cool. That said I see where you're coming from.

I think people misdiagnose the problem with Superman. People will often say something like the problem with him is that he's too overpowered. But that's why his main nemesis is Lex Luthor, a powerful businessman integrated into mainstream society who he can't confront with brute force. And sure he's an alien but the whole point of the character is that even an (illegal?)alien from a different galaxy can become not just an American but a great American and an embodiment of all that's good in America.

I've said this elsewhere but I think the problem with Superman is that he has the ethos of a New Deal Democrat with a middle America flavor and people on both the left and right find that alien(pun intended). Right wingers prefer heroes like Batman and the Punisher and leftists prefer more urban, diverse heroes that you tend to find in the Marvel canon. If someone could really write an authentic Superman I think it has the potential to realty resonate with Americans but its an uphill battle

Iron Man probably has the most mass appeal because he embodies a lot of(I would say largely negative and distasteful) trends and notions in modern society; his abilities play to notions of scientism, his lifestyle to our admiration of wealth and hedonism, and his personality to our absolute allergy to sincerity and our preference for ironic detachment and snark. I really hate RDJ's Iron Man even though I give the actor massive credit for his performance as the character.

Bruce Wayne is also a playboy but in the Nolan trilogy the playboy dimension is more of an act, something Wayne plays up as a cover. RDJ's Iron Man is an unironic playboy which to me is really off putting.

I would say that The Last Temptation of Christ and The Gospel According to St. Matthew are two works that deviant from the canon of the King James Bible and both are quite important. If you are beholden to outside influence when making art I think it naturally will suffer.

 

[Gandhi]

I think Kafir is talking more generally. I do agree that TDK made the Joker much more of a near-antihero than any other depiction (although he does still represent the complete corruption of a person, as well as the evil of moral hyper-relativism). And it's what made it by far the best depiction of the character ever IMO. But in the general mythos, the Joker is completely irredeemable and not so ideological. Nolan made him a force of nature created by systems of brutality and their contradictions. But in pretty much every other depiction, he's just a narcissistic asshole and kind of a hapless boob.



I have strong opinions on Batman, but I'm probably giving off the impression that I'm more versed in the general subject matter than I am. I saw two, maybe three of the X-Men films but just wasn't interested in the subject matter at all.

Actually Nolan is borrowing heavily from established cannon when he does. The Killing Joke is the best example of this.

 

[Sketch]

It’s why I always carry cuffs

You have to admit, that was a siCK set up.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I would say that The Last Temptation of Christ and The Gospel According to St. Matthew are two works that deviant from the canon of the King James Bible and both are quite important. If you are beholden to outside influence when making art I think it naturally will suffer.

Tweaks are fine but wildly deviating from the canon and making Jesus the bad guy and Judas the good guy would be a horrible film.

 

[essie]

Tweaks are fine but wildly deviating from the canon and making Jesus the bad guy and Judas the good guy would be a horrible film.

I don't agree but I haven't seen someone try it so who knows. I'm not saying that telling a story as it was written is bad, I'm saying that if the story you are trying to tell can't be told how you want because of concerns over canon or money that's a problem.

 

[Gandhi]

Pretentiousness is such a subjective thing. Batman 89 didn't hit that note for me, but Batman Returns really did. It struck me as very pretentious and self-indulgent. Like an exhibitionist art film for dumb people.

That is so well put lol. 89 was not as bad, but it was still somewhat gothy and fake.