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Social War Room Lounge 318: Propaganda Extravaganza

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Good luck taking his AV if he loses, we have an account bet on it..

I didn't see that in the bet thread. I only see my magnificent incoming victory in there, but even if he does leave, I win and his AV will forever be the shame I put there until the end of time. {<hhh]
 
That's a rather privileged position to have, though. You're basically telling struggling people to suck it up and take one for the team. They're not playing a baseball game with a rib injury. This is their lives, and you might not have such strong opinions if it was you struggling to feed your family under Biden, and remembering the pre-COVID days under Trump when you weren't.
They might not feel they have a choice in who to support (if you accept all the premises that they are not doing well currently) but that doesn’t mean the decision is a good one for the country or for even them longterm. Poor people’s desperation isn’t exactly a great argument that Trump is an acceptable option.

If the premise is the only guy that can go win AND help the poor here just happens to be the guy who wants to overturn elections, not close to buying that. We can angle this conversation a bunch of different ways but it doesn’t justify putting someone in office who wants to overturn elections. We know that. Call that privilege (usually an angle the left uses) but it’s still right.

I don’t think that 50% can all be explained by impoverished voters either. There’s people doing fine that are still supporting the guy.
 
They might not feel they have a choice in who to support (if you accept all the premises that they are not doing well currently) but that doesn’t mean the decision is a good one for the country or for even them longterm. Poor people’s desperation isn’t exactly a great argument that Trump is an acceptable option.
I don't agree at all. When the current guy is fucking you, you're not gonna hold the line for "the country", as if it matters to someone who is fighting against eviction every single month.

Again, taking "the country" into consideration, is a very privileged position.

If the premise is the only guy that can go win AND help the poor here just happens to be the guy who wants to overturn elections, not close to buying that
He's not "the only guy", but the people want him. All of the pearl clutching over his previous actions aren't gonna sway people who have been devastated by Biden's administration, real or imagined.

. We can angle this conversation a bunch of different ways but it doesn’t justify putting someone in office who wants to overturn elections. We know that. Call that privilege (usually an angle the left uses) but it’s still right.
Talk to me when your kids are starving under Biden's administration. I'm not calling it privileged to think those people should just vote for Biden, to "save the country". It IS privileged, because the reality is, you're not feeling the hardships, and you're trying to tell people who are, that their problems are insignificant to the overall political landscape that you are privileged enough to care about. They just want to stop depending on food banks, bruh.

I don’t think that 50% can all be explained by impoverished voters either. There’s people doing fine that are still supporting the guy.
Well, obviously. However, it's the outliers who decide elections. Not ride or die red or blue people. That's why Trump is currently leading. He's winning over people who are struggling under Biden.
 
They might not feel they have a choice in who to support (if you accept all the premises that they are not doing well currently) but that doesn’t mean the decision is a good one for the country or for even them longterm. Poor people’s desperation isn’t exactly a great argument that Trump is an acceptable option.

If the premise is the only guy that can go win AND help the poor here just happens to be the guy who wants to overturn elections, not close to buying that. We can angle this conversation a bunch of different ways but it doesn’t justify putting someone in office who wants to overturn elections. We know that. Call that privilege (usually an angle the left uses) but it’s still right.

I don’t think that 50% can all be explained by impoverished voters either. There’s people doing fine that are still supporting the guy.
Kayfabe. Just like Democrats chose Biden and Hillary, two people responsible for the invasion of Iraq, over someone like Bernie or Tulsi.
 
They might not feel they have a choice in who to support (if you accept all the premises that they are not doing well currently) but that doesn’t mean the decision is a good one for the country or for even them longterm. Poor people’s desperation isn’t exactly a great argument that Trump is an acceptable option.

If the premise is the only guy that can go win AND help the poor here just happens to be the guy who wants to overturn elections, not close to buying that. We can angle this conversation a bunch of different ways but it doesn’t justify putting someone in office who wants to overturn elections. We know that. Call that privilege (usually an angle the left uses) but it’s still right.

I don’t think that 50% can all be explained by impoverished voters either. There’s people doing fine that are still supporting the guy.
The weird thing is that the economy is booming now and it was shitty when Trump left.
 
I don't agree at all. When the current guy is fucking you, you're not gonna hold the line for "the country", as if it matters to someone who is fighting against eviction every single month.

Again, taking "the country" into consideration, is a very privileged position.


He's not "the only guy", but the people want him. All of the pearl clutching over his previous actions aren't gonna sway people who have been devastated by Biden's administration, real or imagined.


Talk to me when your kids are starving under Biden's administration. I'm not calling it privileged to think those people should just vote for Biden, to "save the country". It IS privileged, because the reality is, you're not feeling the hardships, and you're trying to tell people who are, that their problems are insignificant to the overall political landscape that you are privileged enough to care about. They just want to stop depending on food banks, bruh.


Well, obviously. However, it's the outliers who decide elections. Not ride or die red or blue people. That's why Trump is currently leading. He's winning over people who are struggling under Biden.

I’d say this is going in circles but one nugget here:
All of the pearl clutching over his previous actions aren't gonna sway people
Is being concerned with a president trying to overturn a lost election pearl clutching? Something that big is pearl clutching to you and poverty isn’t some item you can wedge in here to act like it’s one or the other or that you are somehow on the side of the impoverished here. The poor don’t do better outside of a constitutional republican/ liberal democracy and that’s what you are downplaying here. “The people” are exactly who I’m saying can nominate someone else in these primaries.

With the privilege thing, this is a way to rhetorically deflect an actual point. It isn’t any longer about whether the point is valid but rather “it must be nice you can even bring up this point!”. Its identity over substance. It’s illiberal and you shouldn’t pick that up. Ideas sit independent from the one presenting them. If we decide people can’t communicate the right idea just because of race, background, etc, liberalism is a failed effort. Someone could just say your Canadian and that privilege allows you to be less concerned about US demcoracy/ institutions. But it doesn’t matter if you are in the US or not, your point that trying to overturn elections is pearl clutching is either right or wrong regardless of that. And it’s clearly wrong here. At best you would have to severely discount any value to democracy to reach that view. Maybe I was wrong about how much the right doesn’t care about democracy if they could be promised slightly better economic prospects. That’s pretty sad if true.
 
The weird thing is that the economy is booming now and it was shitty when Trump left.
There’s a piece of context missing there. I don’t think many found the economy to be bad before Covid hit.
 
There’s a piece of context missing there. I don’t think many found the economy to be bad before Covid hit.
Sure, but by any measure, it's better now than it was before the pandemic. I don't get how we just ignore Trump dropping the ball there or give Biden zero credit for the turnaround (especially since no other developed country has done as well).
 
I’d say this is going in circles but one nugget here:

Is being concerned with a president trying to overturn a lost election pearl clutching? Something that big is pearl clutching to you and poverty isn’t some item you can wedge in here to act like it’s one or the other or that you are somehow on the side of the impoverished here. The poor don’t do better outside of a constitutional republican/ liberal democracy and that’s what you are downplaying here. “The people” are exactly who I’m saying can nominate someone else in these primaries.

With the privilege thing, this is a way to rhetorically deflect an actual point. It isn’t any longer about whether the point is valid but rather “it must be nice you can even bring up this point!”. Its identity over substance. It’s illiberal and you shouldn’t pick that up. Ideas sit independent from the one presenting them. If we decide people can’t communicate the right idea just because of race, background, etc, liberalism is a failed effort. Someone could just say your Canadian and that privilege allows you to be less concerned about US demcoracy/ institutions. But it doesn’t matter if you are in the US or not, your point that trying to overturn elections is pearl clutching is either right or wrong regardless of that. And it’s clearly wrong here. At best you would have to severely discount any value to democracy to reach that view. Maybe I was wrong about how much the right doesn’t care about democracy if they could be promised slightly better economic prospects. That’s pretty sad if true.
Welcome to politics?
 
Sure, but by any measure, it's better now than it was before the pandemic. I don't get how we just ignore Trump dropping the ball there or give Biden zero credit for the turnaround (especially since no other developed country has done as well).
Biden shouldnt get zero credit but I also don’t think much can be known about where things would’ve been had Trump stayed in office. The vaccine was reached shortly after the election and it was seen as a unique downturn that could have a v shape recovery to it since we voluntarily brought things to a hault. Additionally, we know ARP could’ve been less. I’m fine with the idea of overshooting for the consequences of undershooting being worse but I think it was probable a recovery would’ve went similar with possibly less inflation in that other scenario.
 
Biden shouldnt get zero credit but I also don’t think much can be known about where things would’ve been had Trump stayed in office.
I think the baseline would be like the G7 average with the U.S. removed. Generally presidents don't have a lot to do with the economy, but mismanaging a crisis and crafting a policy response to a downturn are areas of exception (though I think there's some level of downturn during the pandemic regardless and some recovery regardless).
The vaccine was reached shortly after the election and it was seen as a unique downturn that could have a v shape recovery to it since we voluntarily brought things to a hault. Additionally, we know ARP could’ve been less. I’m fine with the idea of overshooting for the consequences of undershooting being worse but I think it was probable a recovery would’ve went similar with possibly less inflation in that other scenario.
Disagree that a V-shaped recovery was inevitable. Again, look at other developed countries. The U.S.'s superior performance can be tied to the ARP. And inflation is now lower here than in other developed countries, which I think calls the overshoot (which I would have agreed on) into question.

Anyway, the idea that we should tolerate a threat to political liberties in exchange for supposedly superior economic performance is cowardly but also wrong in that Trump's economic record is also much worse than Biden's.
 
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Anyway, the idea that we should tolerate a threat to political liberties in exchange for supposedly superior economic performance is cowardly but also wrong in that Trump's economic record is also much worse than Biden's.
Yea, I don’t think it’s a great angle either. The country would already be shit with that mindset. You shouldn’t need to cede right for some belief is better economic results and long term it definitely wouldn’t be the case.
 
Yea, I don’t think it’s a great angle either. The country would already be shit with that mindset. You shouldn’t need to cede right for some belief is better economic results and long term it definitely wouldn’t be the case.

And the other points are tied together somewhat. Theoretically, a dictator could do better with economic policy because of the lack of constraints, but in reality, it's usually people like Trump (incompetent, self-serving crooks) who wreck democratic/constitutional controls, and the economic results are almost invariably terrible.
 
And the other points are tied together somewhat. Theoretically, a dictator could do better with economic policy because of the lack of constraints, but in reality, it's usually people like Trump (incompetent, self-serving crooks) who wreck democratic/constitutional controls, and the economic results are almost invariably terrible.
I think “theoretically” is key there. Sure that’s possible, but I wouldn’t bet on it being better, even with a competent person at the helm. You also factor in long term with successors and it would only get worse.
 
I’d say this is going in circles but one nugget here:

Is being concerned with a president trying to overturn a lost election pearl clutching?

If the people concerned aren't actually suffering under the guy who replaced him, then yes. We can all wax poetic about "the 'sanctity' of whatever the fuck", but it's not gonna mean much to angry people who are suffering, and want someone to fix their problems. Some might even wish that the guy in question was successful, because they'd be better off, or at least believe they would be.

At the end of the day, we're a selfish species.

Something that big is pearl clutching to you and poverty isn’t some item you can wedge in here to act like it’s one or the other or that you are somehow on the side of the impoverished here. The poor don’t do better outside of a constitutional republican/ liberal democracy and that’s what you are downplaying here. “The people” are exactly who I’m saying can nominate someone else in these primaries.
But if they don't want someone else, you want to tell them that they're wrong and bad. That's not how it works. If the people want Trump, the people get Trump. That's democracy.

With the privilege thing, this is a way to rhetorically deflect an actual point.
No it isn't. It's a real thing. Like safe suburbanites thinking that defunding the police is a good idea, because they don't have to deal with the fallout.

"Police are so bad!"

- Some fucking idiot who has never actually had to deal with real crime problems.

It's a privileged position. It's why most people in shit hole neighborhoods who actually live that shit day to day, want more police, not less.


It isn’t any longer about whether the point is valid but rather “it must be nice you can even bring up this point!”. Its identity over substance. It’s illiberal and you shouldn’t pick that up. Ideas sit independent from the one presenting them. If we decide people can’t communicate the right idea just because of race, background, etc, liberalism is a failed effort. Someone could just say your Canadian and that privilege allows you to be less concerned about US demcoracy/ institutions. But it doesn’t matter if you are in the US or not, your point that trying to overturn elections is pearl clutching is either right or wrong regardless of that. And it’s clearly wrong here. At best you would have to severely discount any value to democracy to reach that view. Maybe I was wrong about how much the right doesn’t care about democracy if they could be promised slightly better economic prospects. That’s pretty sad if true.
Who is "we". People are not a monolith. Half the country votes against the President, and merely put up with it, if they're doing alright, regardless. That is the only thing keeping democracy alive, and certainly American democracy. If most people are happy, it works. If one side feels that they're getting the shaft, it don't.

If you think that's gonna continue for thousands of years, you're wrong. Certainly not in a democratic society, where people get to choose their leaders. Odds are, eventually systems are gonna collapse in the goal of trying to please everyone(with favoritism to one side of course), and if it gets hairy, like it is, they'll look for someone to crush what is killing them. Might be short sighted, but it is what it is.
 
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