Vegans/Vegetarians

[Sexy]

TS, just buy free-range/pastured, grassfed meat from a local farmer.

i googled that for columbus and i found a place that im going to this weekend.
i hope this helps your conundrum.

 

[Da Speeit]

Plants do actually have a neural web of sorts and that is published.

Go back a page and you'll see a botanical example of a plan't nervous system responding to tissue damage with a chemical defense and then communicating to other members of its species in the vicinity that they need to defend themselves against an imminent herbivorial attack.

The idea that its ok to butcher plants stems from our incredibly subjective understanding of consciousness and neural function.

The theory that "they don't feel pain/suffering like we do" has been used throughout history to justify all manner of atrocities not only against non human animals but also against racial, ethnic, and religious groups that the proponents of the theory felt were lesser beings.

Thank you for addressing that butthurt episode he was having, it saved me a lot of energy.

 

[Mae]

Plants do actually have a neural web of sorts and that is published.

Go back a page and you'll see a botanical example of a plan't nervous system responding to tissue damage with a chemical defense and then communicating to other members of its species in the vicinity that they need to defend themselves against an imminent herbivorial attack.

The idea that its ok to butcher plants stems from our incredibly subjective understanding of consciousness and neural function.

The theory that "they don't feel pain/suffering like we do" has been used throughout history to justify all manner of atrocities not only against non human animals but also against racial, ethnic, and religious groups that the proponents of the theory felt were lesser beings.

I never denied that plants can respond to outside threats. That is VERY different from being able to feel pain and suffer in the way animals can, which includes physical and mental suffering. I agree that our understanding of plants is limited, but that does not lead to the logical conclusion you are driving at. We KNOW animals can suffer, in as much as we can possibly know such a thing. We DON'T know that plants can suffer. So to compare the the killing of the two is silly. But even if I granted fully that plants can suffer in the way animals can (which there is no scientific evidence for) it would still make sense to be a vegetarian, or to at least never eat factory farmed meat. Far more plants are killed from a diet that includes meat from factory farms than from a plant based diet, or a diet with ONLY grass fed cattle (which is a whole other subject).

 

[Mae]

Any vegans or vegetarians here? Why did you choose to do it? Do you have any advice on it?

Vegan for a year and a half, vegetarian for about 2. I do it purely for ethical reasons. I think the best advice would be to educate yourself on the subject as well as you can, so it will be easy to answer all the ridiculous questions people seriously ask (aka "well then why are animals made out of meat? questions).

 

[Sexy]

Do vegans eat honey?

 

[shunyata]

Mae I'm not advocating the consumption of factory farmed livestock.

I'm simply saying it is easily possible to consume an ethically sound omnivorous diet of fresh healthy foods that does include some wild caught or humanely raised free range meat.

If anything you probably do more damage to the planet being a vegan who consumes mostly factory farmed crops and staples than an omnivore who only patronizes small local farms and food producers does.

The idea that veganism by default is in any way ethically superior is nonsense and if anything it is ignoring our omnivorous nature to the detriment of our own personal health. Hell the Dali Lama openly he admitted he drinks broth made with simmered animal bones.

If we avoid killing any organism we will in turn kill ourselves by starvation. How ethical is that?

 

[shunyata]

I never denied that plants can respond to outside threats. That is VERY different from being able to feel pain and suffer in the way animals can, which includes physical and mental suffering. I agree that our understanding of plants is limited, but that does not lead to the logical conclusion you are driving at. We KNOW animals can suffer, in as much as we can possibly know such a thing. We DON'T know that plants can suffer. So to compare the the killing of the two is silly. But even if I granted fully that plants can suffer in the way animals can (which there is no scientific evidence for) it would still make sense to be a vegetarian, or to at least never eat factory farmed meat. Far more plants are killed from a diet that includes meat from factory farms than from a plant based diet, or a diet with ONLY grass fed cattle (which is a whole other subject).

Why would a plant experience anything in the same way that a mammal does? If it experiences it in a different way does that mean we can marginalize it and write it off?

We have scientific evidence that plants are aware of the tissue damage caused by attack from herbivores and in some situations can attempt to repel that attack or even cry out chemically to their brethren to warn them of the danger.

Being against industrial farming and livestock practices does not mean you should be pro vegan. It simply means you should commercially boycott all large scale industrial agriculture in favor of locally grown/raised, sustainably produced, and humanely harvested food stuffs.

 

[Mae]

Shunyata: I think we are both in agreement that it is better to avoid factory farmed style products. I do think it is better to eat meat from places that treat the animals better, though I would still prefer not to eat them. The problem I have with this is that while many different places will claim "free range" and "humane", when you actually investigate their practices, they turn out to be horrible also. But yes, if you only buy from places that truely treat their animals well, and you have personally investigated it, then I have far less objections with that (you not meaning yourself personally).

I do think a vegan diet tends to promote a more ethical way of life, but I agree you could in theory support certain vegan products which may be just as bad as some others. I never advocated that we must NEVER kill ANYTHING. That would be silly. I simply focus on those of us who live in first world nations, where it is just as cheap and as convenient to live on a vegetarian diet versus a meat eating diet.

If a plant can feel pain, but just in a different way than animals, of course we shouldn't marginalize that. But we simply don't have the evidence to support this. Once again, the leap you are making from a plant being able to repair itself and give off chemicals when it is dying to therefore, plants can feel pain and suffering in a comparable way to animals, is simply not sound.

I agree that being opposed to factory farming doesn't mean you must be a vegan. That is why I said "or grass fed cattle" in the post of mine that you quoted.

 

[UFCfightman**]

Mae I'm not advocating the consumption of factory farmed livestock.

I'm simply saying it is easily possible to consume an ethically sound omnivorous diet of fresh healthy foods that does include some wild caught or humanely raised free range meat.

If anything you probably do more damage to the planet being a vegan who consumes mostly factory farmed crops and staples than an omnivore who only patronizes small local farms and food producers does.

The idea that veganism by default is in any way ethically superior is nonsense and if anything it is ignoring our omnivorous nature to the detriment of our own personal health. Hell the Dali Lama openly he admitted he drinks broth made with simmered animal bones.

If we avoid killing any organism we will in turn kill ourselves by starvation. How ethical is that?

I'm really curious why you threw that point in. is the dalai lama an authority on morality in your opinion?

 

[shunyata]

I'm really curious why you threw that point in. is the dalai lama an authority on morality in your opinion?

People advocating veganism as ethically superior often point to the tradition in buddhism of monks consuming a vegan diet.

The Dali Lama, basically the pope of tibetan buddhism, has recently admitted that he is not a strict vegan and consumes broths made from animal stock for health purposes.

 

[irc]

Well, have fun with your upcoming blood deficiency

Wait, you're drinking vegetarian based protein daily and keeping your carbohydrate levels from critical mass, right?


And if you plan on moving to Denver without eating some of the freshest and best beef you can acquire, then dont even bother

LOL, where in Denver?

 

[ocean size]

We have scientific evidence that plants are aware of the tissue damage caused by attack from herbivores and in some situations can attempt to repel that attack or even cry out chemically to their brethren to warn them of the danger.

Plants don't have a neural net as you stated, these defense mechanisms aren't cutting edge botany (edit: I guess we are still working out some of the mechanisms, so that isn't completely untrue ) there is not an emerging body of work showing plants are aware.

That being said, You really are trying equate releasing alklaloid compounds upon injury, to actual suffering? These behavioral responses in plants are not much different than those found in bacteria - they are just simple chemical reactions with no cognition involved.

If you think all life is sacred and should be treated with respect, that's cool. But to pretend there is no difference in an animal that clearly has the capacity for nocioreception and most likely has some amount of awareness and feels pain, and a plant that produces chemicals when touched? Come on.

As far as industrial vs. small scale farming, that is a separate issue that should be differentiated. I think you can make a good case for eating well treated grass fed beef. But the same benefits of eating local foods goes to the vegan as well.

Do you never eat a burger at a barbecue or a steak at a restaurant where it is most likely from CAFO beef? I mean it is great that good alternatives exist, but for most people following those guidelines they would be pretty much vegan until they are home or at probably just a couple of restaurants in their area.

As for the DL (wiki):

“People think of animals as if they were vegetables, and that is not right. We have to change the way people think about animals. I encourage the Tibetan people and all people to move toward a vegetarian diet that doesn’t cause suffering.”
—Dalai Lama[56]


The Dalai Lama advocates compassion for animals and frequently urges people to try vegetarianism or at least reduce their consumption of meat. In Tibet, where historically meat was the most common food, most monks historically have been omnivores, including the Dalai Lamas. The Fourteenth Dalai Lama was raised in a meat-eating family but converted to vegetarianism after arriving in India, where vegetables are much more easily available. He spent many years as a vegetarian, but after contracting Hepatitis in India and suffering from weakness, his doctors ordered him to eat meat on alternating days, which he did for several years. He tried switching back to a vegetarian diet, but once again returned to limited consumption of meat. This attracted public attention when, during a visit to the White House, he was offered a vegetarian menu but declined by replying, as he is known to do on occasion when dining in the company of non-vegetarians, "I'm a Tibetan monk, not a vegetarian".[57] His own home kitchen, however, is completely vegetarian

Either way, he shouldn't be a moral authority of dietary choices unless you are his adherent, and probably sets a good example in not sacrificing his health for his ethics.

 

[ocean size]

Do vegans eat honey?

Strict vegans do not. I find the position a little extreme but whatever, I guess at least they are consistent.

 

[Dinkin_Flicka]

Fuck Monsanto! I feel you man. One of my dreams is to have my own garden of sustenance some day. There isn't an organic market here so I have no choice. I can't wait to move to an area that supports it.

If you end up moving to Seattle then you will love for this. One of my wifes best friends husband is an organic farmer just outside Seattle. We've got tons of awesome fruits and veggies from him. Just made a big batch of gnocchi from a chioggia squash he gave us, never even seen one of those things until he gave it to us.

Me and the wife live about 90 minutes outside of Seattle and there are several companies that deliver boxes of organic stuff to drop off locations. It was pretty nice since the one that we used had a drop off on the way home from work. You end up expanding what you eat a ton since you end up finding different recipies to cook up the various things that get dropped off.

 

[frenz]

TS, just buy free-range/pastured, grassfed meat from a local farmer.

i googled that for columbus and i found a place that im going to this weekend.
i hope this helps your conundrum.

Since he's going vegetarian, im guessing it does not help in any way shape or form.

meat eaters for you

 

[Sexy]

Since he's going vegetarian, im guessing it does not help in any way shape or form.

meat eaters for you

He said it was due to moral obligations. To me it doesn't matter, but if it was free range/grassfed/pastured meat, who lived a 'happy' life - or as happy as a cow can -it might change his mind.

 

[weed]

chill.


I shower in blood & use a turkey drumstick as soap.

then I brush my teeth with lard & fix my hair with giblet juice.


meat4lyfe

 

[marian]

and oh yea, its a fun game to play to see how long you can have someone know you but never know youre a vegetarian. also the best way ive found to make other people vegetarians is to not really talk about it and just live by example. might also want to think of a good simple answer to the question of why you are a vegetarian, people are dicks and will question everything about why you are doing it like youre the asshole.

I love this game. I love how surprised people look when they find out I'm a vegetarian.

Also, for everyone who says that you need to supplement & take all kinds of crazy protein shakes if you go vegetarian or vegan, in my case nope. I'm a woman who has been training bjj for~2 years and I get complisulted after I roll with dudes "Wow, you're so strong!" Even my coach has told me "You're stronger than sh!te."

I train hard, I can easily do two-a-days, and I recover more quickly than my peers (other women in my age group with similar training backgrounds) who do eat meat.

I eat normal food, I just don't eat meat or eggs or dairy (or much by way of processed food for that matter). Oatmeal, salads, soups, rice, lentils, burritos, pizza, donuts (ok, those are processed), loads of fruits & veggies, etc.

I got my yearly physical last month & here are my blood work numbers:

HDL: 69mg/dL
LDL: 82mg/dL
Glucose random: 78mg/dL
WBC count: 11.2K/uL
RBC count: 5.14M/uL
Hemoglobin: 15.2g/dL
Hematocrit: 44.5%
MCV: 89fL
Platelet count: 293k/uL
Blood pressure: 109/58​

And while it is true one can eat meat and be healthy, I have a hard time seeing how in my case adding meet to my diet would improve my numbers, my health, or my athletic performance.

 

[CauseImbetta]

I saw forks over knives and converted right away. My issues are bloating, which happens due to excess fiber and water, and will power. Do you have the same issues?

 

[Slick_36]

I love this game. I love how surprised people look when they find out I'm a vegetarian.

Also, for everyone who says that you need to supplement & take all kinds of crazy protein shakes if you go vegetarian or vegan, in my case nope. I'm a woman...

Stopped reading right there. Like I'm going to take the advice of a woman! Lmao :icon_lol: