Vegans/Vegetarians

[Slick_36]

So fishing is ok if you catch it yourself because there is no profit?

Don't pull this shit with me. It's not cute. It's the food industry I morally can't keep supporting. I'm not claiming to be shit, don't fucking put me on the stand to make me look like I'm doing something wrong. I've already stated my feelings in this thread, feel free to read them yourself.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

Don't pull this shit with me. It's not cute. It's the food industry I morally can't keep supporting. I'm not claiming to be shit, don't fucking put me on the stand to make me look like I'm doing something wrong. I've already stated my feelings in this thread, feel free to read them yourself.

lol

 

[Slick_36]

lol

I don't get it man, you've been a dick all through the thread. I thought you were one of the cooler guys here but now you pull this. It's just annoying. Call me gay, call me fake, then question my morals and convictions. I normally wouldn't get so hurt from another poster's words, but I liked you man. Why are you doing this?

 

[PolishHeadlock]

I don't get it man, you've been a dick all through the thread. I thought you were one of the cooler guys here but now you pull this. It's just annoying. Call me gay, call me fake, then question my morals and convictions. I normally wouldn't get so hurt from another poster's words, but I liked you man. Why are you doing this?

Dude the first post was just a joke.

The second one I wasn't questioning your morals in the sense of calling you a hypocrite. I was just seeing where you drew the line and why. Where people draw the line on animal rights and why they choose that line is interesting to me.

I loled in the 3rd one because I thought you were faking outrage in your post. I didn't think you were actually mad.

 

[shunyata]

Sorry man, I'm a vegetarian sympathizer, and I liked your post, but I think you're off here. Avoiding tissue damage does not equate to the conscious experience of pain in plants, inviting that comparison is asking for trouble imo.

The reality is that is the biological definition of pain and the aspect of plants havin some form of neural system is just being unravelled in cutting edge botany.

No living thing is pleased with being killed and consumed in its prime unless that act of sacrifice is part of its reproductive cycle.

I'm not saying anyone (except inuits or other people living in extreme arctic environments) should eat a mostly animal product diet, just te opposite I tell most of my omnivorous patients to eat more veggies and fiber.

But I do strongly beleive that the ethical arguments for veganism are horseshit and are based upon the fact that vegans don't want to admit that they too are killers and kill for food every day.

Peter Singer argues that it's ok to slaughter a fish for food because they experience pain differently than land animals and are merely "vessels for emotion".

Personally I feel that Peter Singer is a deuche and the ethical argument for veganism is riddled with the worst kinds of spiritual arrogance. It's all killing. Take it all seriously. Thank the onion before you pull it out of the ground and treat the act of uprooting as seriously as you would treat slitting the throat of a live goat.

If you as a consumer in a capitalist society want to change things you will do far more to change the market by supporting sustainable local farms that specialize in free range / grass fed / humane livestock while eating a diet that is rich with fresh produce than by never spending any money on any animal products.

I work in natural medicine in Los Angeles and deal with malnourished anemic raw vegans everyday that I go to work.


"Don't tell me about diet, my diet is perfect! I'm a raw vegan!" (Said by a woman who eats only one meal a day with almost no protein content, has not had a period in seven years due to anemia / malnutrition and is coming to me to help her get pregnant.)

 

[Slick_36]

Dude the first post was just a joke.

The second one I wasn't questioning your morals in the sense of calling you a hypocrite. I was just seeing where you drew the line and why. Where people draw the line on animal rights and why they choose that line is interesting to me.

I loled in the 3rd one because I thought you were faking outrage in your post. I didn't think you were actually mad.

I'm sorry dude, your posts just exuded judgment and sounded very dickish. If you wanted to know where I drew my moral standards, you could just ask. You didn't have to call me a fake anything, that's something one does just to antagonize. I'm totally down for discussing my personal feelings and I have put a disclaimer up stating what I believe isn't right for everyone else. The world don't move to the beat of just one drum, what may be right for you, may not be right for some. It takes Differ... oops sorry. Got caught up there.

When I started eating this way, it was an experiment to see what it felt like. It was mostly inspired by Rasta philosophy but I was curious as well. I said I would still eat milk and eggs considering the animals are living and not conflicting with the Ital diet. I did some research later and saw some barbaric practices and health benefits from changing diets. I decided it was something I would keep up as much as I could. The lack of protein is a serious concern for me because health food isn't available here. I will not support the abuse of animals for a rich man's profit and my convenience, but killing an animal is not altogether wrong. The Native Americans pray as they kill their food, thanking it and treating it with great honor and respect. The Japanese phrase Itadakimasu means "I humbly receive" and gives thanks to the organism's sacrifice. This to me is the proper way. Not scalding a living pig to remove it's fur quickly or castrating a baby pig with your bare hands like your plucking berries. I think hunting one deer every few years or fishing once a year are fair. As long as I treat it with the respect and humility it deserves. Who is to say I will keep this mentality up though? I may feel even more strongly against it as I progress. We'll see. I don't see myself reverting back to industrialized meat however.

 

[shunyata]

Slick I like where you are going with saying a prayer for your fallen prey, but I would suggest you extend the same respect to the plants you kill as well.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

I'm sorry dude, your posts just exuded judgment and sounded very dickish. If you wanted to know where I drew my moral standards, you could just ask. You didn't have to call me a fake anything, that's something one does just to antagonize. I'm totally down for discussing my personal feelings and I have put a disclaimer up stating what I believe isn't right for everyone else. The world don't move to the beat of just one drum, what may be right for you, may not be right for some. It takes Differ... oops sorry. Got caught up there.

When I started eating this way, it was an experiment to see what it felt like. It was mostly inspired by Rasta philosophy but I was curious as well. I said I would still eat milk and eggs considering the animals are living and not conflicting with the Ital diet. I did some research later and saw some barbaric practices and health benefits from changing diets. I decided it was something I would keep up as much as I could. The lack of protein is a serious concern for me because health food isn't available here. I will not support the abuse of animals for a rich man's profit and my convenience, but killing an animal is not altogether wrong. The Native Americans pray as they kill their food, thanking it and treating it with great honor and respect. The Japanese phrase Itadakimasu means "I humbly receive" and gives thanks to the organism's sacrifice. This to me is the proper way. Not scalding a living pig to remove it's fur quickly or castrating a baby pig with your bare hands like your plucking berries. I think hunting one deer every few years or fishing once a year are fair. As long as I treat it with the respect and humility it deserves. Who is to say I will keep this mentality up though? I may feel even more strongly against it as I progress. We'll see. I don't see myself reverting back to industrialized meat however.

Yeah I guess I did look dickish. I was just fucking around with the fake thing as a joke. But your response actually did pique my interest when you mentioned profit and suffering.

 

[Slick_36]

Slick I like where you are going with saying a prayer for your fallen prey, but I would suggest you extend the same respect to the plants you kill as well.

I'll look in to the studies. I enjoyed your post about it. I just kind of figured releasing a pheromone unconsciously after being damaged was different than actual electrical impulses that stimulate pain. Like how far can you take guilt for the killing of life. The thing about plants, assuming they feel like animals, is their life and conditions. They live as any wild plant would, they sit, they're provided nutrients, and they enjoy being plants until they are harvested. Animals are brutalized, stuffed in to barbaric conditions, and pumped with terrible chemicals. If I had to choose the killing of one, it would be the one with the least suffering.

 

[Slick_36]

Yeah I guess I did look dickish. I was just fucking around with the fake thing as a joke. But your response actually did pique my interest when you mentioned profit and suffering.

It's all good man. If it's not how you meant it, I have nothing to be upset about. I appreciate you asking questions actually. We'd all be better people if we were questioned more often.

 

[UFCfightman**]

I'll look in to the studies. I enjoyed your post about it. I just kind of figured releasing a pheromone unconsciously after being damaged was different than actual electrical impulses that stimulate pain. Like how far can you take guilt for the killing of life. The thing about plants, assuming they feel like animals, is their life and conditions. They live as any wild plant would, they sit, they're provided nutrients, and they enjoy being plants until they are harvested. Animals are brutalized, stuffed in to barbaric conditions, and pumped with terrible chemicals. If I had to choose the killing of one, it would be the one with the least suffering.

so if the conditions of the killing, of animals, was humane and noble you wouldn't mind eating it?

is the moral highground an important part of your vegetarian lifestyle? I myself sometimes go vegan or pescatarian for months but only for personal cleansing and not for any moral pretext

 

[shunyata]

I'll look in to the studies. I enjoyed your post about it. I just kind of figured releasing a pheromone unconsciously after being damaged was different than actual electrical impulses that stimulate pain. Like how far can you take guilt for the killing of life. The thing about plants, assuming they feel like animals, is their life and conditions. They live as any wild plant would, they sit, they're provided nutrients, and they enjoy being plants until they are harvested. Animals are brutalized, stuffed in to barbaric conditions, and pumped with terrible chemicals. If I had to choose the killing of one, it would be the one with the least suffering.

Uhh you just described exactly what factory farms do to plant crops in your second to last sentence.

The problem is industrial farming methods, not an inability to eat a healthy omnivorous diet using sustainable local foods.

 

[Slick_36]

so if the conditions of the killing, of animals, was humane and noble you wouldn't mind eating it?

is the moral highground an important part of your vegetarian lifestyle? I myself sometimes go vegan or pescatarian for months but only for personal cleansing and not for any moral pretext

It's a case by case situation as far as motives go. For me, it's a combination of everything. I also want to teach myself nutrition and get in tune with what my body needs to function optimally. If the conditions were humane and noble, I'd consider eating it when necessary. Gluttony and materialism are our society's two biggest vices. I want to cut them out of my life. I was never very in to meat other than loving sushi. So adjusting isn't that hard for me. I'm an athlete though and getting protein in a healthy way is important to me. I'm trying to balance my philosophy as gracefully as I can.

 

[Slick_36]

Uhh you just described exactly what factory farms do to plant crops in your second to last sentence.

The problem is industrial farming methods, not an inability to eat a healthy omnivorous diet using sustainable local foods.

Fuck Monsanto! I feel you man. One of my dreams is to have my own garden of sustenance some day. There isn't an organic market here so I have no choice. I can't wait to move to an area that supports it.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Personally I feel that Peter Singer is a deuche and the ethical argument for veganism is riddled with the worst kinds of spiritual arrogance. It's all killing. Take it all seriously. Thank the onion before you pull it out of the ground and treat the act of uprooting as seriously as you would treat slitting the throat of a live goat.

If you as a consumer in a capitalist society want to change things you will do far more to change the market by supporting sustainable local farms that specialize in free range / grass fed / humane livestock while eating a diet that is rich with fresh produce than by never spending any money on any animal products.

Haha I was actually going to push Singer's viewpoint for a few more posts in here, but it seems you're already familiar so I won't bore you. I was definitely more affected by his arguments, although not quite convinced.

Anyways, our conclusions are similar (and delicious) so I won't push the issue any further :icon_chee

 

[Mae]

I wonder if a corn crop thinks it's abusive as you mow it down with gigantic blades.
I wonder if the trees cut down to roll your joints thought it was abusive as they were chopped down from their many years of life, growth and prosperity.

Plants have central nervous systems? This is news to me. You should publish your new scientific findings to the science community, I'm sure they will be thrilled with your new findings. To think all this time we could have known plants are able to feel pain and suffer just like animals, yet it wasn't until you came along that someone smart enough was able to figure this out. Let me know when you publish your new scientific findings, I look forward to it.

Oh, what's that? Plants don't have the ability to feel pain and suffer like animals do, so your argument is illogical? Yeah.....

 

[Sexy]

Not scalding a living pig to remove it's fur quickly or castrating a baby pig with your bare hands like your plucking berries. I think hunting one deer every few years or fishing once a year are fair.

Bacon is good.

 

[Sexy]

Fuck Monsanto! I feel you man. One of my dreams is to have my own garden of sustenance some day. There isn't an organic market here so I have no choice. I can't wait to move to an area that supports it.

where hte fuck do you live?

even in ohio there are farmers markets everywhere, well at least in all of the communities ive lived in.

 

[shunyata]

Plants have central nervous systems? This is news to me. You should publish your new scientific findings to the science community, I'm sure they will be thrilled with your new findings. To think all this time we could have known plants are able to feel pain and suffer just like animals, yet it wasn't until you came along that someone smart enough was able to figure this out. Let me know when you publish your new scientific findings, I look forward to it.

Oh, what's that? Plants don't have the ability to feel pain and suffer like animals do, so your argument is illogical? Yeah.....

Plants do actually have a neural web of sorts and that is published.

Go back a page and you'll see a botanical example of a plan't nervous system responding to tissue damage with a chemical defense and then communicating to other members of its species in the vicinity that they need to defend themselves against an imminent herbivorial attack.

The idea that its ok to butcher plants stems from our incredibly subjective understanding of consciousness and neural function.

The theory that "they don't feel pain/suffering like we do" has been used throughout history to justify all manner of atrocities not only against non human animals but also against racial, ethnic, and religious groups that the proponents of the theory felt were lesser beings.

 

[Slick_36]

where hte fuck do you live?

even in ohio there are farmers markets everywhere, well at least in all of the communities ive lived in.

Rural Texas. I would have to drive an 60 miles out at least to even have a chance of finding something.