Media USADA tests under 100 picograms per ML

[kflo]

It's not impossible at all. It's actually extremely likely that there are zero clean UFC fighters.

it's hard to imagine how though without getting caught with greater frequency.

 

[johny ringo]

They're all on dude.

Theyve been on since the days of Royce and Shamrock when guys were getting $500 a fight.

Now fighters can make millions.

You're living in a fantasy if you think pro athletes are not.

It only matters on here when they do t like the fighter. The others get a pass.

 

[TimeToTrain]

It doesn't matter what someone looks like. People respond differently to PEDs as far as physical appearance. But PEDs help immensely with physical performance.

Royce Gracie didn't look like he was on PEDs but he got caught.

that was years ago and I agree with you that PEDs do not make someone’s physique look shredded. I was just pointing out to the poster that thinks everyone is on PEDs. I disagree with that. It’s hard to prove by physique. We need data to show how long a steroid like turinabol or a metabolite stays in the system before it degrades, how frequent fighters are tested, etc. The new testing rules say it is now under 100 picograms per mL. That means a fighter is allowed to have traces of 99 picograms per 1 mL of either blood or urine. The question is, how long does an illegal substance stay in the system before it degraded to 99 picograms? Keep in mind. Lots of money is at stake here. Investors are willing to pay a scientist to find this data and it is not hard to do.

 

[kflo]

that was years ago and I agree with you that PEDs do not make someone’s physique look shredded. I was just pointing out to the poster that thinks everyone is on PEDs. I disagree with that. It’s hard to prove by physique. We need data to show how long a steroid like turinabol or a metabolite stays in the system before it degrades, how frequent fighters are tested, etc. The new testing rules say it is now under 100 picograms per mL. That means a fighter is allowed to have traces of 99 picograms per 1 mL of either blood or urine. The question is, how long does an illegal substance stay in the system before it degraded to 99 picograms? Keep in mind. Lots of money is at stake here. Investors are willing to pay a scientist to find this data and it is not hard to do.

what investors?

 

[TimeToTrain]

what investors?

Vegas, the gambling industry, the multinational corporations in sports apparel, Dana White especially, the people behind him, behind the scenes. Sports marketing is where the money is at. Data is easy to find if you hire the right people.

 

[mraa1]

I am martial artist and i have competed in BJJ and would to compete soon in full contact martial arts i can tell u without a doubt i have never taken any peds..and i know several people just like me...

Not everyone cheats or uses peds .. this is a bullshit cope cheaters use to claim innocences ..

Like a girl who cheats and says well everyone cheats/experiment's in college...nope...no they dont

No offense, but you're a weekend warrior whose livelihood doesn't depend on your hobbyist matches. Don't act like you're under the same pressure as some guy in a professional org fighting for a world title

 

[kflo]

Vegas, the gambling industry, the multinational corporations in sports apparel, Dana White especially, the people behind him, behind the scenes. Sports marketing is where the money is at. Data is easy to find if you hire the right people.

you think big sports apparel companies, or wme are dedicating budget to help their athletes pass random drug tests? what's that paper trail look like?

maybe sports agencies....

not sure what data you're referring to.....

 

[TimeToTrain]

you think big sports apparel companies, or wme are dedicating budget to help their athletes pass random drug tests? what's that paper trail look like?

maybe sports agencies....

not sure what data you're referring to.....

Apparel, I may be wrong. I’m just throwing names out there. It’s a money ring, and that’s what it comes down to.

Data of how long it takes for an illegal substance to metabolize or degrade until it reaches below 100 picograms per 1 mL drop of blood or urine. This data will help analyze the timing of when the athlete needs to take it before it is detected during a test. But then again, if they come unannounced, we can throw this data out the window. But if they have solutions on there to flush out the system, that’s another story too. It’s like a person who flushed out their system of marijuana during a drug test they got hired for employment.

 

[kflo]

Apparel, I may be wrong. I’m just throwing names out there. It’s a money ring, and that’s what it comes down to.

Data of how long it takes for an illegal substance to metabolize or degrade until it reaches below 100 picograms per 1 mL drop of blood or urine. This data will help analyze the timing of when the athlete needs to take it before it is detected during a test. But then again, if they come unannounced, we can throw this data out the window.

they have random drug testing and it's not just metabolized and static. it's dependent on alot of variables including how much you're taking and for how long (and needs to be effective doses), and even then there can be large variations in urine concentration from the same dosages.

i agree without random testing some ped's have a known profile and can easily be used to pass tests if you know the dates. turinabol though isn't one of those peds. the russians knew this years ago and switched their cocktail from tbol to tren....

 

[MMAcolyte]

you don't seem to know what "whataboutism" means. you tried to pretend this was unique to jones and when presented with proof it's not you just move the post.


and again, you'll just ignore the facts that don't align with your narrative (like when you tried to pretend there was a huge financial gain for lying for jones, and when confronted with proof this isn't true you just move on).

there is alot of hateful talk, yes. it goes way beyond whether he may have used at one point - it's to the point where people ignore anything that goes against a narrative that he's roided to the gills for every fight.

When did I say Jones was the only person they'd ever used the supposed snitching cop-out to circumvent their own flimsy rules? I didn't. Instead of answering my questions about that dubious debacle you said, "well what about Werdum and Costa?!" Welcome to Whataboutism 101.

I didn't move any goal-post, since I never said Jones was the only person they'd ever used this for. He is the highest profile and he is the first; it makes sense that they'd use this as a precedent going forward with other cheaters who have recognizable names. These sorts of things are usually eatablished using precedent. Just because this doesn't work in favour of your argument you falsely accuse me of moving a goal post you imagined and deny your blatant use of "whataboutism".

Furthermore, if Jon is so innocent and ignorant of how these mysterious PED's, estrogen blockers, etc keep turning up in his system, how on Earth could he know enough about them to provide USADA substantial enough assistance to justify reducing his punishment from potentially 4 years to just 15 months (which isn't a punishment at all)? Don't answer that, make another flawed accusation instead.

Speaking of moving goal posts, I see your post is now set somewhere along the line of, "jon probably isn't juiced to a significant degree for every fight in his career, so the evidence that he's used PED's before shouldn't matter". MMA fans are a special breed, because in other major sports it does matter.

You told me that USADA is a not-for-profit who doesn't recieve money from the UFC in any capcity for the services they provide. I accepted that at face-value and pointed out that this arrangement with the UFC is still a massive boon to the viability and continued existence of USADA. I would be surprised if the UFC wasn't USADA's biggest client. Job security is worth all the money in the world, take it from someone who's lucky enough to have a realtively secure job in a volatile industry. So even if USADA isn't making fat stacks like I had implied, I didn't "move on", I explained to you how having such secure and long-term work is still a massive win for USADA. They want to keep UFC happy, it is 100% in their best interest to make sure this relationship continues.

 

[kflo]

When did I say Jones was the only person they'd ever used the supposed snitching cop-out to circumvent their own flimsy rules? I didn't. Instead of answering my questions about that dubious debacle you said, "well what about Werdum and Costa?!" Welcome to Whataboutism 101.

I didn't move any goal-post, since I never said Jones was the only person they'd ever used this for. He is the highest profile and he is the first; it makes sense that they'd use this as a precedent going forward with other cheaters who have recognizable names. These sorts of things are usually eatablished using precedent. Just because this doesn't work in favour of your argument you falsely accuse me of moving a goal post you imagined and deny your blatant use of "whataboutism".

sorry, you're just making shit up and floundering. you asked why it's not public knowledge.....i pointed out, using real examples, that they don't make it public knowledge for anyone. again, either you don't know what "whataboutism" means or you're just trying to weasel your way away from what you said.

Furthermore, if Jon is so innocent and ignorant of how these mysterious PED's, estrogen blockers, etc keep turning up in his system, how on Earth could he know enough about them to provide USADA substantial enough assistance to justify reducing his punishment from potentially 4 years to just 15 months (which isn't a punishment at all)? Don't answer that, make another flawed accusation instead.

substantial assistance can be any number of things, without knowing the intricate details of ped's. it's you that don't seem to have any grasp of the topic.

Speaking of moving goal posts, I see your post is now set somewhere along the line of, "jon probably isn't juiced to a significant degree for every fight in his career, so the evidence that he's used PED's before shouldn't matter". MMA fans are a special breed, because in other major sports it does matter.

if you want to have an honest debate on the topic you probably should focus on the facts instead of just trying to paint with a broad brush and making accusations without acknowledging you may be wrong.

You told me that USADA is a not-for-profit who doesn't recieve money from the UFC in any capcity for the services they provide. I accepted that at face-value and pointed out that this arrangement with the UFC is still a massive boon to the viability and continued existence of USADA. I would be surprised if the UFC wasn't USADA's biggest client. Job security is worth all the money in the world, take it from someone who's lucky enough to have a realtively secure job in a volatile industry. So even if USADA isn't making fat stacks like I had implied, I didn't "move on", I explained to you how having such secure and long-term work is still a massive win for USADA. They want to keep UFC happy, it is 100% in their best interest to make sure this relationship continues.

again, the ufc still makes alot more of their revenue from the usoc and federal grants than they make from the ufc. and again, their science director makes little more than the prior one made before they even had the ufc. you originally tried to imply the ufc was a financial windfall for the individuals and that's just false. they have security without the ufc and again, if they are destroying their credibility in their scientific community at the same time is the incremental security worth it?

 

[Paolo Delutis]

No offense, but you're a weekend warrior whose livelihood doesn't depend on your hobbyist matches. Don't act like you're under the same pressure as some guy in a professional org fighting for a world title

No offense...

Dont assume everyone would take steroids or drugs just because money is involved and they can "help"...

Morals are a thing...i know in this day and age of filth it doesnt get spoken about alot but it exists lol

You can be successful in sports especially combat sports without PEDs...

Drug dealers make alot of money too why doesn't everyone do that too

 

[MMAcolyte]

sorry, you're just making shit up and floundering. you asked why it's not public knowledge.....i pointed out, using real examples, that they don't make it public knowledge for anyone. again, either you don't know what "whataboutism" means or you're just trying to weasel your way away from what you said.



substantial assistance can be any number of things, without knowing the intricate details of ped's. it's you that don't seem to have any grasp of the topic.

if you want to have an honest debate on the topic you probably should focus on the facts instead of just trying to paint with a broad brush and making accusations without acknowledging you may be wrong.


again, the ufc still makes alot more of their revenue from the usoc and federal grants than they make from the ufc. and again, their science director makes little more than the prior one made before they even had the ufc. you originally tried to imply the ufc was a financial windfall for the individuals and that's just false. they have security without the ufc and again, if they are destroying their credibility in their scientific community at the same time is the incremental security worth it?

How are they destroying their credibility in the scientific community if all of this is completely confidential and hush-hush? You figure they invite all their peers to review all the samples and present Jon's substantial snitching to a board of their scientific peers who aren't associated with USADA and ask them what they think about everything?

It's funny because you're the one who talks in the most general terms possible (substantial assistance could be "anything"....you wouldn't understand) to try to make it look as if Jon is somehow innocent and none of this evidence is legitimately incriminating. It's actually so incriminating that he's been suspended. Twice. And they used confidential tactics that had never been used before to lighten the penalty. It's not like his innocence factored into his reprieve at all. Still 100% guilty of having the drugs in hos system. Instead they claim he assisted them somehow in their fight against PED's.

You completely gloss over and ignore his abnormal test results taken out of competition dating back to 2014 and call me "hateful" for bringing them up lol. Having a T:E ratio way, way below that of an average couch potato male (when you're in your mid 20's no less) isn't concrete, iron-clad, metaphysically certain evidence you cheated....but getting busted for estrogen blockers (which he did get suspended for) later? You seem really pedantic about this whole thing. And not once have you even stated your position. The closest you've gotten is something along the lines of implying that Jon has used PED's, but he probably isn't juiced to the gills every time he fights.

 

[kflo]

How are they destroying their credibility in the scientific community if all of this is completely confidential and hush-hush? You figure they invite all their peers to review all the samples and present Jon's substantial snitching to a board of their scientific peers who aren't associated with USADA and ask them what they think about everything?

At least we agree there wasn’t some huge financial incentive as you suggested. As for credibility, armchair analysts like you are convinced they sacrificed their credibility but you don’t think their peer community know?

It's funny because you're the one who talks in the most general terms possible (substantial assistance could be "anything"....you wouldn't understand) to try to make it look as if Jon is somehow innocent and none of this evidence is legitimately incriminating. It's actually so incriminating that he's been suspended. Twice. And they used confidential tactics that had never been used before to lighten the penalty. It's not like his innocence factored into his reprieve at all. Still 100% guilty of having the drugs in hos system. Instead they claim he assisted them somehow in their fight against PED's.

again it was you that introduced the idea that because we don’t know what the assistance was that it’s made up. Of course you didn’t know that they usually don’t disclose what the assistance was. And this was well before jones….https://www.sportsintegrityinitiati...ete-pena-accepts-sanction-for-rule-violation/

You completely gloss over and ignore his abnormal test results taken out of competition dating back to 2014 and call me "hateful" for bringing them up lol. Having a T:E ratio way, way below that of an average couch potato male (when you're in your mid 20's no less) isn't concrete, iron-clad, metaphysically certain evidence you cheated....but getting busted for estrogen blockers (which he did get suspended for) later? You seem really pedantic about this whole thing. And not once have you even stated your position. The closest you've gotten is something along the lines of implying that Jon has used PED's, but he probably isn't juiced to the gills every time he fights.

Again I objected to the false information you were putting out there. So I corrected you.

as for his t/e, again, conte, the outcast who people like to quote on the issue, said CIR testing was needed. Which they did and came back clean. Don Caitlin called for it too. https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2015...rone-readings-cir-test-needed-on-jones-sample

Despite his suspicions, Catlin said Jones’ T/E ratio could be “perfectly normal.” He added, however, that the agency that ordered the test needed to go further than simply measuring the ratio.

and:
Kevin Iole with Yahoo Sports spoke with Dr. Christiane Ayotte, the head of Montreal's Laboratoire de contrôle du dopage INRS, one of 32 WADA-accredited labs worldwide. She saw no problem with Jones' T/E ratio. Dr. Ayotte said she was not alarmed by Jones' test results, and said they were not the result of taking epitostosterone to manipulate the T/E ratio.

"I read the interviews of 'specialists' on that topic [in MMA media accounts], and, well, I am sorry, but such T/E values are not at all abnormal," said Dr. Ayotte. " … The administration of epitestosterone is easily detected. It does not give a small increase that looks natural, but a huge peak that is very difficult to control. I have seen only one case of attempted masking with epitestosterone and it was readily detected.
​

But you’re a hater because you are making up false narratives. As I proved above related to the financial incentives and the disclosure of assistance (which has been part of the program well before jones).

 

[MMAcolyte]

At least we agree there wasn’t some huge financial incentive as you suggested. As for credibility, armchair analysts like you are convinced they sacrificed their credibility but you don’t think their peer community know

No, we don't agree about that. There are close to 600 athletes on the UFC roster at any given time who are spread out all over the planet and need to be randomly drug tested year-round. If you don't think that kind of guaranteed employment and work for so many people for such an indefinitely long period of time qualifies as a massive financial incentive, then you're clueless. Maybe you're really young, maybe you just come from money, but whatever your deal is, you're very naive.

Case in point, your belief that all the scientists who specialize in all the diverse fields relating to what we're talking about are somehow privy to what USADA's doing with all the bodily fluids they're collecting from 500+ people all over the world all year long and exaclty how USADA is handling cases of malfeasance. I think anyone can go and see who has been tested and how many times they've been tested, but does USADA release the results of every one of those tests to peer-reviewed journals or something? And then submit any assistance violaters provide them to this vague community you keep referencing and wait for their approval on what to do next? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

 

[kflo]

No, we don't agree about that. There are close to 600 athletes on the UFC roster at any given time who are spread out all over the planet and need to be randomly drug tested year-round. If you don't think that kind of guaranteed employment and work for so many people for such an indefinitely long period of time qualifies as a massive financial incentive, then you're clueless. Maybe you're really young, maybe you just come from money, but whatever your deal is, you're very naive.

Again, they were around long before the ufc and they have more revenue from non-ufc related activities than from the ufc. And there’s zero to suggest that ruling one way or another on jones would move the ufc away from usada. And again, the idea that public blatantly unethical actions is the key to long term professional stability is sorta silly. And look, I get it. You started off by saying their was a huge financial incentive (“massive money”!!!) and now you’re afraid to concede you were wrong, for some reason……

Case in point, your belief that all the scientists who specialize in all the diverse fields relating to what we're talking about are somehow privy to what USADA's doing with all the bodily fluids they're collecting from 500+ people all over the world all year long and exaclty how USADA is handling cases of malfeasance. I think anyone can go and see who has been tested and how many times they've been tested, but does USADA release the results of every one of those tests to peer-reviewed journals or something? And then submit any assistance violaters provide them to this vague community you keep referencing and wait for their approval on what to do next? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

Maybe you’re not aware that usada doesn’t actually do the testing?

You’re not even following your own argument. It’s YOU that is arguing the top of usada is doing things that YOU can detect, on a specific case, that is unethical and against science and facts. That’s YOUR argument. That’s what YOU believe. Yet you’re trying to at the same time argue that his peers in the profession can’t see it.

 

[icemun]

No offense...

Dont assume everyone would take steroids or drugs just because money is involved and they can "help"...

Morals are a thing...i know in this day and age of filth it doesnt get spoken about alot but it exists lol

You can be successful in sports especially combat sports without PEDs...

Drug dealers make alot of money too why doesn't everyone do that too

You missed the point entirely.

You're recreational weekend activity is NOT analogous, not remotely comparable to professional sports.

You just typed a lot unsubstantiated conjecture

 

[Paolo Delutis]

You missed the point entirely.

You're recreational weekend activity is NOT analogous, not remotely comparable to professional sports.

You just typed a lot unsubstantiated conjecture

I think you missed the point...

i intend on fighting PRO at some point within the next 12 months and i am not ,nor have i ever took PEDS ...ill fight amateur for sure without a doubt in that time frame

Again ...being a pro athlete doesnt mean u have to take steroids this a misconception most unathletic or fat people say to comfort themselves as to whether or not its possible to be a pro

 

[icemun]

i intend on fighting PRO at some point within the next 12 months and i am not

fighting pro at, what?

being a pro athlete doesnt mean u have to take steroids this a misconception most unathletic or fat people say to comfort themselves as to whether or not its possible to be a pro

Quite the contrary. Look at D1 athletes but we are talking financially compensated pro athletes. Not ballroom fighters.

 

[rakeleaves]

USADA was hired to clean up the UFC's dirty steroid image so it could become more acceptible into the mainstream. They only cleaned up the sport insofar as they needed to to clean up the UFC's image.