Ukraine far right got destroyed in the election

[Tseren**]

I've been acused of being a nazi and a thug so with time I sort of stopped bothering answering serious questions.

P.S. Also my english is not that great to explain everything properly.

Not all people involved in this discussion are close-minded assholes like Kirku.

Your opinions are more valuable than ours since you're directly involved in the crisis and I'll greatly appreciate your insight so I can have a better understanding of current events.

You can communicate to me in Russian if that's easier for you.

 

[AA4142CA]

Not all people involved in this discussion are close-minded assholes like Kirku.

Your opinions are more valuable than ours since you're directly involved in the crisis and I'll greatly appreciate your insight so I can have a better understanding of current events.

You can communicate to me in Russian if that's easier for you.

Actualy Kirku is the biggest supporter of Ukraine so I think you both speak the same stuff just from the different angle.

You can communicate to me in Russian if that's easier for you.

In PM yes, but not here, it wouldn't be fair. Unless you wanna be my translator.

 

[Marsupial]

Geopolitical: (Almost every single Crimean wishes for Crimea to join the Russian Federation... get off your moral high-ground Westerners!)

Domestic: Exaggerating the amount of support for the bill -> Smoother unification process that is more widely accepted in Crimea and in Russia.

If the true result would have reflected a clear majority in favour of Russia annexing Crimea, as you assert, then why so obviously distort it?

Wouldn't the truth be more effective in countering any objections from the international community and legitimizing a process of annexation if it clearly demonstrated a majority of Crimeans in favour of such a thing?

The above assumes, of course, that such a referendum, speedily organised and held under the auspices of the armed forces of an invading power, could ever be legitimate.

 

[Tseren**]

If the true result would have reflected a clear majority in favour of Russia annexing Crimea, as you assert, then why so obviously distort it?

Wouldn't the truth be more effective in countering any objections from the international community and legitimizing a process of annexation if it clearly demonstrated a majority of Crimeans in favour of such a thing?

The above assumes, of course, that such a referendum, speedily organised and held under the auspices of the armed forces of an invading power, could ever be legitimate.

If the electoral process in Crimea was organized perfectly and 100% ethically then the Western media would have subjected it towards the same type of coverage it did with the +97% result.

In that world, you'd read headlines like "65% vote in favor of joining Russia rigged?"

What are likely to be skewed public figures damage the spirit of Democracy, but what's important is that the will of the people in Crimea and Russia was honored.

 

[Marsupial]

If the electoral process in Crimea was organized perfectly and 100% ethically then the Western media would have subjected it towards the same type of coverage it did with the +97% result.

In that world, you'd read headlines like "65% vote in favor of joining Russia rigged?"

That doesn't really make much sense. Since the western media would portray the vote as rigged, even if it was carried out freely and fairly and produced a majority in favour of annexation, they might as well rig the vote anyway and produce a result so wildly distorted that not even those that are pro-Russian, like yourself, could possibly defend it?

Such a move would only strengthen the position of the western media in criticizing the referendum, whereas a legitimate vote properly conducted would weaken their case. Why would Crimeans and Russia go to the trouble of carrying out a fraudulent vote that only undermines their standing on the issue when they could have supposedly achieved the desired victory openly and honestly?

What are likely to be skewed public figures damage the spirit of Democracy, but what's important is that the will of the people in Crimea and Russia was honored.

How can you assert that when you admit that the results were falsified (thus making it impossible to know what the will of Crimeans was and whether or not it was honored)?

 

[Tseren**]

That doesn't really make much sense. Since the western media would portray the vote as rigged, even if it was carried out freely and fairly and produced a majority in favour of annexation, they might as well rig the vote anyway and produce a result so wildly distorted that not even those that are pro-Russian, like yourself, could possibly defend it?

Such a move would only strengthen the position of the western media in criticizing the referendum, whereas a legitimate vote properly conducted would weaken their case. Why would Crimeans and Russia go to the trouble of carrying out a fraudulent vote that only undermines their standing on the issue when they could have supposedly achieved the desired victory openly and honestly?

I'm only speculating here.

Truthfully, I wouldn't know whether the polls actually were rigged or not, and if they were, why.

There's reason to suspect that they were, but the answer to the question of 'Why?' would only be known by authorities in the Kremlin.

My contention still remains that the majority of Crimeans were in favor of becoming Russian citizens.

How can you assert that when you admit that the results were falsified (thus making it impossible to know what the will of Crimeans was and whether or not it was honored)?

First of all, I did not admit that the results were falsified, because that would require me to know that such was the case. I can't admit to something I don't know of.

There's reason to have suspicion towards the results, I do acknowledge that.

With that admitted, I'll restate that the will of the people in Crimea was honored with their induction into the Russian Federation.

Interpret these as you will:

 

[Kirku]

The propaganda from Moscow is, at many times, a response to irresponsible journalism from the West and contemptible lies from Kiev.

Trying to paint Moscow as the reactionary victim in this 'info-war' is absurd.

In your view, anybody who disagrees with your stance on the issue is a simpleton. What makes your assessments more likely to be true than mine?

Present your counter argument with evidence. I've stated that it is obvious that the separatists are funded, equipped and organised by Russia. Prove me wrong.

Firstly, Chechens are Russian. It is important for Russians to correct people's language when they attempt to disfigure the unity of the Russian Federation with implicit statements.

If you think it's important for 'Russians to correct people's language when they attempt to disfigure the unity of the Russian Federation' then perhaps you can move back home and fight a linguistic crusade against the use of churki. It's certainly not conducive to a united Russia.

It's funny you talk about language because yours is steeped in pro-Russian/anti-Ukrainian vocabulary. 'Patriots' in the East, 'junta' in Kyiv, calling Ukraine 'borderland' and Putin 'not advocating direct action'. You've attempted to persuade people of your impartiality but your position is as clear as day.

Chechens may have a Russian passport but they are certainly not considered to be Russian. Telling us about the 'unity of the Russian Federation' is amongst the most ridiculous things you've said. How many lives have been lost in the punitive wars in Chechnya? 50,000? 100,000? 200,000? If that is 'unity' then I'd be interested in what you'd consider discord.

Secondly, the Kremlin's alleged part in rebellions in East Ukraine does not take away from what seems to be evident- that patriots in the East are displeased with the governance of the junta in Kiev that does not consider the interests of a significant portion of the country's population into account.

Donetsk People's Republic asks Moscow to consider its accession into Russia

The separatists asked to join Russia without a referendum (not even a sham one) despite the fact that the majority of people support a united Ukraine. How can you reconcile these facts with your 'patriot' narrative? I think you're right about there being a junta in Ukraine, but it isn't in Kyiv.

This does not seem to be the path that you, and many people sharing your views, have embarked on...It is my opinion that I am more likely to be correct than you, since I'm subjecting the coverage of all three major parties to critical review and rational reflection.

I guess we can add this to the growing list of baseless assumptions you've made about me and other posters who disagree with you.

Why do you believe you are alone in being able to 'subject all three major parties to critical review and rational reflection'?

My guess, as I've said previously, is that you're a recent graduate. As is typical, you mistake verbosity for intelligence and believe you're truly something special. You sit behind your computer, thousands of miles away, and attempt to claim that you have some kind of unique insight that the rest of us are just too dull to comprehend. Don't worry - you'll grow out of it.

 

[Tseren**]

Trying to paint Moscow as the reactionary victim in this 'info-war' is absurd.


Present your counter argument with evidence. I've stated that it is obvious that the separatists are funded, equipped and organised by Russia. Prove me wrong.

I never denied that notion. I did suggest that it's not as obvious as you might have been led to believe. And if it is the case, the extent of it is exaggerated.

If you think it's important for 'Russians to correct people's language when they attempt to disfigure the unity of the Russian Federation' then perhaps you can move back home and fight a linguistic crusade against the use of churki. It's certainly not conducive to a united Russia.

I'm strongly against racism in Russia, which is an unfortunately prevalent problem in large urban areas.

It's funny you talk about language because yours is steeped in pro-Russian/anti-Ukrainian vocabulary. 'Patriots' in the East, 'junta' in Kyiv, calling Ukraine 'borderland' and Putin 'not advocating direct action'. You've attempted to persuade people of your impartiality but your position is as clear as day.

The rebels in the East are Ukrainian patriots. They are risking their lives for what they believe to be the good of the people. That is what patriots do.

The government in Kiev is a junta. This is true a posteriori.

Chechens may have a Russian passport but there are certainly not considered to be Russian. Telling us about the 'unity of the Russian Federation' is amongst the most ridiculous things you've said. How many lives have been lost in the punitive wars in Chechnya? 50,000? 100,000? 200,000? If that is 'unity' then I'd be interested in what you'd consider discord.

The conflicts in Chechnya resulted in the tragic loss of lives of millions of Chechens and Russians outside Chechnya.

The situation has been stabilized and many Chechens enjoy prominence in positions of Russian government, business, and public life.

I guess we can add this to the growing list of baseless assumptions you've made about me and other posters who disagree with you.

Why do you believe you are alone in being able to 'subject all three major parties to critical review and rational reflection'?

You misinterpret much of what I post. It is very difficult to continue this discussion with you.

I do not believe I am alone in "being able to 'subject all three major parties to critical review and rational reflection'", but in a group of those that are, you certainly don't belong.

My guess, as I've said previously, is that you're a recent graduate. As is typical, you mistake verbosity for intelligence and believe you're truly something special. You sit behind your computer, thousands of miles away, and attempt to claim that you have some kind of unique insight that the rest of us are just too dull to comprehend. Don't worry - you'll grow out of it.

Sure buddy

 

[Kirku]

I never denied that notion. I did suggest that it's not as obvious as you might have been led to believe. And if it is the case, the extent of it is exaggerated.

Led to believe by who? You seem to think you know exactly where my information is coming from.

If you are suggesting otherwise, it would also infer that you have a superior source of information than I do. How can you assume such things?

The rebels in the East are Ukrainian patriots. They are risking their lives for what they believe to be the good of the people. That is what patriots do.

Yet, as I have demonstrated, they are explicitly acting against the will of their own people.

Your credibility, or what was left of it, is seriously floundering at this point.

The government in Kiev is a junta. This is true a posteriori.

The Ukrainian government is legitimately elected and fully legal. Can the same be said of the separatists?

The conflicts in Chechnya resulted in the tragic loss of lives of millions of Chechens and Russians outside Chechnya. The situation has been stabilized and many Chechens enjoy prominence in positions of Russian government, business, and public life.

How many Russian troops are deployed in the Caucasus region? They are deployed as an occupying force - yet you rail against me for making a distinction between Chechen and Russian and speak of this so called 'unity'?

I do not believe I am alone in "being able to 'subject all three major parties to critical review and rational reflection'", but in a group of those that are, you certainly don't belong.

Because I don't agree with your demonstrably anti-Ukrainian stance? Are you still attempting to cling to this notion that your posts are impartial?

Sure buddy

Am I wrong?

 

[Tseren**]

Led to believe by who? You seem to think you know exactly where my information is coming from.

If you are suggesting otherwise, it would also infer that you have a superior source of information than I do. How can you assume such things?

Obviously by Western media- how else are you staying informed on this issue?(*)

Clearly not from actual experience.

Yet, as I have demonstrated, they are explicitly acting against the will of their own people.

Your credibility, or what was left of it, is seriously floundering at this point.

They're fighting for what they believe is good for their nation.

I never used the word 'will' in this context.

The Ukrainian government is legitimately elected and fully legal. Can the same be said of the separatists?

The part about you staying informed on the issue(*), I take it back.

How many Russian troops are deployed in the Caucasus region? They are deployed as an occupying force - yet you rail against me for making a distinction between Chechen and Russian and speak of this so called 'unity'?

Chechens are Russian. Chechnya is in Russia. The Russian Federation is a multiethnic and multicultural country where many communities have a common vision. This is the unity that I speak of.

Because I don't agree with your demonstrably anti-Ukrainian stance? Are you still attempting to cling to this notion that your posts are impartial?

Am I wrong?

You are wrong.

My stance is not anti-Ukrainian and I am not impartial on the issue.

However I am respectful towards epistemology in that I avoid the folly of expressing opinions as facts and misrepresenting stated views.

It's not very difficult, I believe you're capable of doing the same.

 

[AA4142CA]

The rebels in the East are Ukrainian patriots. They are risking their lives for what they believe to be the good of the people. That is what patriots do.

The government in Kiev is a junta. This is true a posteriori.

First of all, they can't be ukraininan patriots if they burning ukrainian flags on each corner, waiving russian flags and shouting Russia just like the muslims would shout Allahu Akhbar.

Second, the ones that are actualy on the front lines geared up with AK's, granade launchers and russian PZRK's are not even locals. Yes, locals are helping them but on what scale nobody knows.

You need to draw the line between patriots, separatists, goverment and junta. On Maidan people lost their lives under one and only flag of Ukraine beliving they can change something for sake of their country. They were the true patriots. New goverment speculated on the matter so people believed them. In the east of Ukraine separatists *coughs* (sorry patriots) decided they don't want the new goverment so they decided... to make russian republic. The self proclaimed goverment speculates on the subjects such as Nazi goverment or genocide of russian speaking population to make ordinary people to support their course. At the end of the day you have to be an embecile to believe such nonsence.

When people in the east say they don't want new goverment to rob them, they must have been sleeping for the last 5 years. Akhmetov, Yanukovich, Zakharchenko, Pshonka were actualy pro-russians from eastern Ukraine and for the last 5 years they are the ones who took all the cream from everything that Ukraine makes or produces. In Russia there is saying "свое гавно не пахнет", I think this definition went beyond stupidity.

Some facts from the top of my head. Most of the leaders of DNR and LNR are from Russia and have nothing to do with locals.
Last summer Slovyansk along with thier mayor won the ukrainian patriotic city award. This summer it's a completely different picture.
Where are all those Ukrainian people with flags? Or is it just the self proclaimed goverment of DNR and LNR didn't have enough AK's for the real patriots?

 

[Tseren**]

First of all, they can't be ukraininan patriots if they burning ukrainian flags on each corner, waiving russian flags and shouting Russia just like the muslims would shout Allahu Akhbar.

Second, the ones that are actualy on the front lines geared up with AK's, granade launchers and russian PZRK's are not even locals. Yes, locals are helping them but on what scale nobody knows.

You need to draw the line between patriots, separatists, goverment and junta. On Maidan people lost their lives under one and only flag of Ukraine beliving they can change something for sake of their country. They were the true patriots. New goverment speculated on the matter so people believed them. In the east of Ukraine separatists *coughs* (sorry patriots) decided they don't want the new goverment so they decided... to make russian republic.

When people in the east say they don't want new goverment to rob them, they must have been sleeping for the last 5 years. Akhmetov, Yanukovich, Zakharchenko, Pshonka were actualy pro-russians from eastern Ukraine and for the last 5 years they are the ones who took all the cream from everything that Ukraine makes or produces. In Russia there is saying "свое гавно не пахнет", I think this definition went beyond stupidity.

Some facts from the top of my head. Most of the leaders of DNR and LNR are from Russia and have nothing to do with locals.
Last summer Slovyansk along with thier mayor won the ukrainian patriotic city award. This summer it's a completely different picture. Where are all those Ukrainian people with flags? Or is it just the self proclaimed goverment of DNR and LNR didn't have enough AK's for the real patriots?

How much influence do you suppose the revocation of the multicultural language law had on this?

 

[AA4142CA]

How much influence do you suppose the revocation of the multicultural language law had on this?

What revocation?

 

[Tseren**]

What revocation?

The Ukrainian parliament voted to repeal a 2012 law that enabled Russian as an official language in the South and East of Ukraine.

Turchynov said he wouldn't sign the law after Putin increased troop presence in Crimea, but the dominos were already set in motion with sparked protests in Lviv and Eastern Ukraine.

 

[Kirku]

Obviously by Western media- how else are you staying informed on this issue? Clearly not from actual experience.

So, you've assumed I'm a Ukrainian who can speak Russian and now are assuming that my information is coming from the 'Western media'.

This isn't even worthy of a response.

They're fighting for what they believe is good for their nation. I never used the word 'will' in this context.

They are fighting for something that is contrary to what the people want. Raising a foreign flag and attempt to dictate that a region joins a foreign nation is not patriotism.

Chechens are Russian. Chechnya is in Russia. The Russian Federation is a multiethnic and multicultural country where many communities have a common vision. This is the unity that I speak of.

Chechens rarely consider themselves Russian and Russians rarely consider Chechens Russian.

A common vision that requires a permanent military presence, numerous punitive wars, flattened cities and hundreds of thousands of casualties?

You are wrong.

So you aren't a recent graduate who lives in the US?

However I am respectful towards epistemology in that I avoid the folly of expressing opinions as facts and misrepresenting stated views.

This is probably the most hilarious thing you've said in this thread.

 

[AA4142CA]

The Ukrainian parliament voted to repeal a 2012 law that enabled Russian as an official language in the South and East of Ukraine.

Turchynov said he wouldn't sign the law after Putin increased troop presence in Crimea, but the dominos were already set in motion with sparked protests in Lviv and Eastern Ukraine.

Ahh, another thing to speculate about. In truth small group of nationalists tried to push the law through (I think in march) it hasn't been signed, end of story.

The rest is utter BS. L'viv (along with it's mayor) is the first city that made a "russian day" to show support for russian speaking population. Also L'viv was the first city who organised the accomodation for Crimeans who didn't want to live under russian flag, they were still russian speaking.

BTW, I find it strange (as you being a Tatar) about your comments about Chechnya and Russia love affair. This love affair will end ones Putin leaves this world. You can't conquer chechens, but you can always buy them.

 

[Kirku]

On Maidan people lost their lives under one and only flag of Ukraine beliving they can change something for sake of their country. They were the true patriots. New goverment speculated on the matter so people believed them. In the east of Ukraine separatists *coughs* (sorry patriots) decided they don't want the new goverment so they decided... to make russian republic. The self proclaimed goverment speculates on the subjects such as Nazi goverment or genocide of russian speaking population to make ordinary people to support their course. At the end of the day you have to be an embecile to believe such nonsence.

Agree wholeheartedly.

According to Tseren here are some Ukrainian patriots

 

[Kirku]

The rest is utter BS. L'viv (along with it's mayor) is the first city that made a "russian day" to show support for russian speaking population. Also L'viv was the first city who organised the accomodation for Crimeans who didn't want to live under russian flag, they were still russian speaking.

L'viv has also offered to rehouse the citizens of Slovyansk.

 

[Tseren**]

So, you've assumed I'm a Ukrainian who can speak Russian and now are assuming that my information is coming from the 'Western media'.

This isn't even worthy of a response.

Maybe I did speculate that you are Ukrainian and that you are fluent in Russian (which you directly questioned me about by the way, so I had to offer a response), but that would have been to your flattery.

Your passionate interest on this issue would have made sense if you had some kind of relationship with the ex-Soviet world.

Instead, I come to find that you're an opinionated sophist that's very passionate about current affairs, as presented to viewers by 5 minute CNN clips. :icon_lol:

If you're so offended, allow me to ask- what source are you receiving your information from?

They are fighting for something that is contrary to what the people want. Raising a foreign flag and attempt to dictate that a region joins a foreign nation is not patriotism.

They believe that the rights and values of Eastern Ukrainians are not being considered with the same attention as the interests of their countrymen in the West.

Patriots rebel against their governments for what they believe to be the benefit of their people.

Chechens rarely consider themselves Russian and Russians rarely consider Chechens Russian.

A common vision that requires a permanent military presence, numerous punitive wars, flattened cities and hundreds of thousands of casualties?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...t-Chechens-want-to-remain-part-of-Russia.html

So you aren't a recent graduate who lives in the US?

I revealed details about myself before participating in this topic.

Seems like you might be familiar with those details since you've been visiting my page like a stalker.

This is probably the most hilarious thing you've said in this thread.

I'm glad you're easily amused.

 

[Kirku]

Maybe I did speculate that you are Ukrainian and that you are fluent in Russian (which you directly questioned me about by the way, so I had to offer a response), but that would have been to your flattery. Your passionate interest on this issue would have made sense if you had some kind of relationship with the ex-Soviet world. Instead, I come to find that you're an opinionated sophist that's very passionate about current affairs, as presented to viewers by 5 minute CNN clips. :icon_lol: If you're so offended, allow me to ask- what source are you receiving your information from?

"Seems like you're making a big leap from misinterpreting and misrepresenting my posts to blatantly fabricating lies."

I wonder who said that? You managed to continue with your baseless assumptions for quite some time.

I'm not offended in the slightest, just merely highlighting the fact that your attempt to take the intellectual high-ground utterly failed.

I'm not Ukrainian, I'm fluent enough in Russian and lived in Ukraine for many years, I left last year. A large part of my family still lives there. My information comes from family, friends and media sources in both English and Russian.

They believe that the rights and values of Eastern Ukrainians are not being considered with the same attention as the interests of their countrymen in the West.

The majority believe in a united Ukraine. The separatists attempted to join Russia. Their leadership has foreign elements and none of it's leaders were elected, the 'government' is the very definition of junta. It is impossible to genuinely claim that the separatists are acting in the people's interests.

Telegraph article from 2003.

I guess the hundreds of thousands of casualties and the continuing human rights abuses pale into insignificance when viewed through the prism of a Telegraph article from over a decade ago.

I revealed details about myself before participating in this topic. Seems like you might be familiar with those details since you've been visiting my page like a stalker.

Your posts reek of recent graduate superiority complex. That they marry with reality isn't exactly surprising.

I'm also not sure what you think you're proving by posting that screenshot. Am I meant to be embarrassed that I visited the profile page of someone in the same thread? By that rationale, I'd better 'out' the 518 people who've visited my profile.