Two years after the Danish burqa ban - "Muslim women isolate themselves"

[Ultra O’Dia]

I dated a Muslim girl for several years, and she was one of the more intelligent and opinionated people I’ve ever known. There is absolutely no reason to feel bad for her at all. Muslims are not a monolith, just like Jews, Christians, and Hindus. All different cultures and customs, depending on region.

you dont think there is a higher prevalence of anything in any culture?

I know a pikey who has most of his teeth.

 

[lifelessheap]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_riots_in_Sweden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Malmö_mosque_riots

they are goofy, who else would let so many people from an hostile culture inside their own home

They gloat about their own genocide. So woke!

 

[jeremyemilio]

Move back to your Muslim shithole and be free to be treated like a dog.

I was really close to just responding to this by calling you names, but that's not helpful. Instead I'd like to just put down some things I've observed and respond to you how I would respond if you were a person sitting in front of me.

I'm a high school teacher in Canada in the small city that has taken the second highest percentage of immigrants and refugees in the entire country over the past half decade. These are some things I have learned.

First, this idea that immigrants, and especially Muslim immigrants, are somehow unappreciative of their new lives in their new home countries, is a myth from what I can tell. I've talked with a number of refugee students who came to Canada after a few false starts in neighbouring Middle Eastern countries. They have all told me that they felt unwelcome in those places, and they have nothing but gratitude for the acceptance and opportunity they have received in Canada. I've taught girls in high school classes who haven't been in school since they were 7 or 8 years old who are over the moon excited at their opportunity to be educated. They have none of the tools they need to work at the high school level other than their grit and enthusiasm. I've not met a single immigrant of refugee student, male or female, who has expressed any desire to change anything about our country.

Second, immigrant and refugee alike, these people are not a drain on the system. Yes, it takes some resources to get people set up on an entirely new continent, in an entirely new cultural context, among people who speak an entirely different language. But these are smart, resilient, resourceful people. People who escape deadly war zones, family in tow, to start over on a new continent, are not the type to put their feet up and collect handouts for the rest of their lives. I've taught kids who come to school from 8:30 to 3:30, go to work at some factory from 4:00 to Midnight, go home for 6 or 7 hours of sleep, and come back to school the next morning.

Third, cultural divides are not fixed. People adapt and assimilate. They WANT to adapt and assimilate. But they need time and patience and support, just like you would if the roles were reversed. I taught a girl last year who entered my class at the beginning of the semester wearing the Niqab. About half way through the semester she showed up with her face uncovered, reintroduced herself (I'd only seen her eyes up until that point), and never covered her face again. I'm an English teacher. I've had a number of girls write journals and essays and stories on their emerging thoughts on the possibilities of marrying for love. It's an amazing thing to see them look around at their classmates, and process their new opportunities, and actually desire something better for themselves and work to make that happen.

I'm not an apologist for countries or religions or cultures that treat their people like garbage. But I am a supporter of the people. They are not what they are so often portrayed as being. Those of us who believe in showing sensitivity to their very unique situations as they work to adapt should not be confused with those who are allied with an anti-western agenda.

Likewise, and perhaps more importantly, we should not confuse the obstacles that these people encounter in their efforts to adapt with evidence that they share the anti-western agenda of the people who often use them as tools to attack the west and try to burn it down. Those people have no more genuine interest in the well-being of Muslim migrants than they do in the sanctity of Black Lives.

 

[nac386]

you dont think there is a higher prevalence of anything in any culture?

I know a pikey who has most of his teeth.

Of course some things are more prevalent in certain cultures, and I’m empathetic to anybody who doesn’t have the same opportunities and freedoms that I enjoy. But a lot of cultures are overgeneralized, and it’s frustrating for members of that culture who aren’t part of the common generalizations, because they end up being stereotyped inaccurately. For example, I’ve been “randomly” selected for search at the airport twice, on my way to and from Puerto Rico with that Muslim girl. I don’t think that’s a coincidence, being searched the only two times I boarded a plane with a Muslim (no hijab, but brown skin and an Arabic necklace). So I’m always careful about how I stereotype people.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

They just created the law 2 years ago. So they moved to a country, followed the laws, and then new laws were created to target them. You may personally support that type of thing, but you can’t blame them for being upset. I think it’s disingenuous to ignore the fact that the law was not in place when they chose to move there. The whole, “If you don’t like it gtfo” line that people pull is essentially just a dismissive way to support stripping specific people of freedoms. They love to say it until they are the ones targeted, then they aren’t so cavalier.



But she’s precisely correct, right? Laws were specifically created to restrict her ability to wear a burqa. You may agree with the law, and you may hate Islam (you’ve always made that very clear), but she’s not saying anything untrue.

I don’t care what these countries do. They can vote for leaders who support whatever policies they want to see in place. But I hope that America will remain a place where religious freedom is in tact, and continue to set that example for the world.

One thing you’ll never hear from me are the words, “If you don’t like it, GTFO” to anybody who is a citizen of my country. Who the hell am I to tell somebody to leave a country? And where would my country be if everybody was always so ignorant? We’d be stuck in the culture of the 18th century.

That is such bullshit.

Imagine defending something as abhorrent as burkas in 2020, what's next, FGM?

You immigrate to a country...you follow their laws..., even the new ones
...if these laws are discriminatory then yes, your point would be valid. Do you know why the Danish gov instituted this ban on burkas?

One aspect of leftism I never quite understood is that many of you have no idea of how good you have it in western nations.

If the ban on burkas is a deal breaker then there is always Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia they can go to.

 

[Oooxente]

Its simple if you are a place where the costumes are different then yours.
Adapt to it,its not YOUR place,its THEIRS.


There were cases of Western women getting raped AND ARRESTED for complaining about it in Dubai just for walking around like they always do in a place where they shouldn’t.

Do i think that’s barbaric?
Absolutely.

Do i think it is uneducated and VERY arrogant to think that just because you are an outsider you can do whatever you want without dealing with consequences?
Yep also absolutely.

 

[nac386]

That is such bullshit.

Imagine defending something as abhorrent as burkas in 2020, what's next, FGM?

You immigrate to a country...you follow their laws..., even the new ones
...if these laws are discriminatory then yes, your point would be valid. Do you know why the Danish gov instituted this ban on burkas?

One aspect of leftism I never quite understood is that many of you have no idea of how good you have it in western nations.

If the ban on burkas is a deal breaker then there is always Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia they can go to.

Weird post. You said “this is bullshit” and them provided no support for calling anything I said bullshit. What I said was entirely accurate, and emotionless. What you said was entirely emotional.

I can assure you that I’m fully aware of how good we have it, having traveled extensively and engaged in close relationships with people from all over the world. Pretty sure you know that already. Our freedoms, specifically of religion, are one of the primary reasons we have it so good.

 

[Misanthropist]

The "Muslim shithole" argument is pretty out-dated too since a lot of these places look pretty nice because of oil money (the ones that aren't actively being bombed to shit for no reason, that is).

Meanwhile in Finland:

A lot of these guys are in for a huge disappointment when they move to Nordic low-income neighbourhoods. Literal USSR-style architecture in many places.

Western Muslims don’t have that kind of luxury (excluding Gulf Arabs) to move to a Muslim country because they won’t get a citizenship meaning harder to settle in and find a job so they’ll be treated as second class citizens.

Unlike the West where anyone regardless of their ethnicity can get a citizenship after 4 years, home, security, education, health benefits, better secure future for your kids and the list goes on.

 

[sangreporsangre]

I mean, don't get me started on oppressive religious practices... but it's kind of besides the point, here, isn't it? Or, more accurately, the point is entirely missed and reversed by the people who write these types of legislation. Correct me where I'm wrong, but as I see it there are two options here (and both are likely working at once):

1. The women are wearing face coverings by their own choice, according to their own beliefs. In which case, the state is imposing a pretty onerous control on these women in the name of freedom. It would be similar to passing a law that states that American women can't go out with their breasts covered. Congratulations. You've just given a whole bunch of women the choice between staying in their homes or feeling publicly humiliated on a regular basis.

2. The women are wearing face coverings because, by accident of birth, they are under the oppressive control of their fathers and husbands. In which case these women are now trapped in their homes with the men who control their lives in the name if freedom. Congratulations. You've just become an accomplice in their oppression and have taken away what little freedom they had to get out into the world and become agents in their own lives.

To say "That's not the state of Denmark's fault" is disingenuous bullshit.

If your goal is to rescue women from "a misogynistic, evil ideology," you better come up with a more well thought out plan than this sort of trash.

I'm not sure it is the goal of the Danish state to "rescue" Muslim women though? I must have missed where they said that. Seems like they just don't want these women walking around their streets in masks like that, they don't like this extremist version of Islam in their country. They're giving these people the choice to reject the more barbaric practices to try and fit in with Danish society better, and they will have a much better experience. Encouraging Muslim immigrants to either assimilate as much as possible or find another European country to live in. Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, if voters there don't like the policies they know what to do.

I don't know what exactly it is you want the Danish government to do to rescue Muslim women, all they can do is have a good process in place for assisting women who want to escape abusive domestic situations. I have no idea if Denmark has that or not although that part of the world is known for having efficient social policies. Other than that I don't really know what you want me to do here. If the burqa ban really upsets you so much maybe write a strongly worded email to the Danish ambassador of your country or something.

 

[Grenz]

I mean, don't get me started on oppressive religious practices... but it's kind of besides the point, here, isn't it? Or, more accurately, the point is entirely missed and reversed by the people who write these types of legislation. Correct me where I'm wrong, but as I see it there are two options here (and both are likely working at once):

1. The women are wearing face coverings by their own choice, according to their own beliefs. In which case, the state is imposing a pretty onerous control on these women in the name of freedom. It would be similar to passing a law that states that American women can't go out with their breasts covered. Congratulations. You've just given a whole bunch of women the choice between staying in their homes or feeling publicly humiliated on a regular basis.

2. The women are wearing face coverings because, by accident of birth, they are under the oppressive control of their fathers and husbands. In which case these women are now trapped in their homes with the men who control their lives in the name if freedom. Congratulations. You've just become an accomplice in their oppression and have taken away what little freedom they had to get out into the world and become agents in their own lives.

To say "That's not the state of Denmark's fault" is disingenuous bullshit.

If your goal is to rescue women from "a misogynistic, evil ideology," you better come up with a more well thought out plan than this sort of trash.

I don't think this law is really about rescuing women ostensibly subjugated by wearing the burka. I think the intent here is to codify into law a fundamental tenet of a liberal culture: there are no second class citizens here. The burka creates a divide, where on one hand you have a group of people who's appearance is acceptable in public under some very forgiving rules (as man, other than wearing pants, you're basically free to wear whatever you want) and on the other a group who's appearance in public is only acceptable under strict, literally draconian guidelines.

You can argue that it's their choice. Sure, it is, as is everything else if you believe in free will. But the motivation behind the choice is the problem. Women in Iran don't walk around covered up because it makes them feel liberated, they do it because defying this expectation is basically an open invitation for sexual assault. Perhaps in Denmark they wouldn't have to be so worried about that? Ok, then what about their family? Are the males just going to be cool with their choice to defy tradition? Maybe, or maybe they'll disown her...or worse.

 

[Renard]

I was really close to just responding to this by calling you names, but that's not helpful. Instead I'd like to just put down some things I've observed and respond to you how I would respond if you were a person sitting in front of me.

I'm a high school teacher in Canada in the small city that has taken the second highest percentage of immigrants and refugees in the entire country over the past half decade. These are some things I have learned.

First, this idea that immigrants, and especially Muslim immigrants, are somehow unappreciative of their new lives in their new home countries, is a myth from what I can tell. I've talked with a number of refugee students who came to Canada after a few false starts in neighbouring Middle Eastern countries. They have all told me that they felt unwelcome in those places, and they have nothing but gratitude for the acceptance and opportunity they have received in Canada. I've taught girls in high school classes who haven't been in school since they were 7 or 8 years old who are over the moon excited at their opportunity to be educated. They have none of the tools they need to work at the high school level other than their grit and enthusiasm. I've not met a single immigrant of refugee student, male or female, who has expressed any desire to change anything about our country.

Second, immigrant and refugee alike, these people are not a drain on the system. Yes, it takes some resources to get people set up on an entirely new continent, in an entirely new cultural context, among people who speak an entirely different language. But these are smart, resilient, resourceful people. People who escape deadly war zones, family in tow, to start over on a new continent, are not the type to put their feet up and collect handouts for the rest of their lives. I've taught kids who come to school from 8:30 to 3:30, go to work at some factory from 4:00 to Midnight, go home for 6 or 7 hours of sleep, and come back to school the next morning.

Third, cultural divides are not fixed. People adapt and assimilate. They WANT to adapt and assimilate. But they need time and patience and support, just like you would if the roles were reversed. I taught a girl last year who entered my class at the beginning of the semester wearing the Niqab. About half way through the semester she showed up with her face uncovered, reintroduced herself (I'd only seen her eyes up until that point), and never covered her face again. I'm an English teacher. I've had a number of girls write journals and essays and stories on their emerging thoughts on the possibilities of marrying for love. It's an amazing thing to see them look around at their classmates, and process their new opportunities, and actually desire something better for themselves and work to make that happen.

I'm not an apologist for countries or religions or cultures that treat their people like garbage. But I am a supporter of the people. They are not what they are so often portrayed as being. Those of us who believe in showing sensitivity to their very unique situations as they work to adapt should not be confused with those who are allied with an anti-western agenda.

Likewise, and perhaps more importantly, we should not confuse the obstacles that these people encounter in their efforts to adapt with evidence that they share the anti-western agenda of the people who often use them as tools to attack the west and try to burn it down. Those people have no more genuine interest in the well-being of Muslim migrants than they do in the sanctity of Black Lives.

Your way of talking reminds me of someone I know who's also a high school teacher. Ultimately I've concluded that his way of viewing the world is derived from his nurturing / supportive personality type rather than from reality. Essentially the personality type predates everything else (high openness, high agreeableness) leading to choice of career and unconscious interpretations of student behaviour - namely discarding of the negative. Rosy lens find rosy conclusions. I have family members who have taught all levels of school to immigrants and say they're a complete nightmare. Potayto, potahto.

I've mostly had contact with well-educated immigrants, and they're all very nonplussed about being in Canada. Whenever the topic of why they chose Canada comes up, they inevitably say they're only here because their home country is a dumpster fire and they tried getting into X or Y country as a first choice but getting into Canada was easy. Love it, love being the country you kinda don't like but was easy to get into. I've heard the same story so many times, it's almost a gag. A couple of them complain about having to learn English. I've met some unpleasant ones who complained about having to change anything about their behaviour because "We invited them" and somehow we're the ones who owe them now. Somehow they're always "not sure if they're going to stay" and lay roots. I have a friend who's bought a house but has owned no furniture for the past 2 years because he's "not sure" yet. The only immigrants I've met that were enthusiastic about their move were Europeans who had options. If anything we should make it harder to get in just so the people who get in actually want to be here and appreciate it.

 

[BEER]

Self-isolating for religious reasons is more conviction than most Western Christians would ever even ponder.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

Self-isolating for religious reasons is more conviction than most Western Christians would ever even ponder.

so is an honor killing.

 

[BEER]

so is an honor killing.

So what you're telling me is that Islamists are consistent in their honor of the holy texts?

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

Your way of talking reminds me of someone I know who's also a high school teacher. Ultimately I've concluded that his way of viewing the world is derived from his nurturing / supportive personality type rather than from reality. Essentially the personality type predates everything else (high openness, high agreeableness) leading to choice of career and unconscious interpretations of student behaviour - namely discarding of the negative. Rosy lens find rosy conclusions. I have family members who have taught all levels of school to immigrants and say they're a complete nightmare. Potayto, potahto.

I've mostly had contact with well-educated immigrants, and they're all very nonplussed about being in Canada. Whenever the topic of why they chose Canada comes up, they inevitably say they're only here because their home country is a dumpster fire and they tried getting into X or Y country as a first choice but getting into Canada was easy. Love it, love being the country you kinda don't like but was easy to get into. I've heard the same story so many times, it's almost a gag. A couple of them complain about having to learn English. I've met some unpleasant ones who complained about having to change anything about their behaviour because "We invited them" and somehow we're the ones who owe them now. Somehow they're always "not sure if they're going to stay" and lay roots. I have a friend who's bought a house but has owned no furniture for the past 2 years because he's "not sure" yet. The only immigrants I've met that were enthusiastic about their move were Europeans who had options. If anything we should make it harder to get in just so the people who get in actually want to be here and appreciate it.

everyone should want to go where they are going. If I were to move to a Jain town, which is somewhere my veganism would take me if i was without a family and it wasnt such a huge ask of them, I would become the most Jain-y white fuck in the universe.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

So what you're telling me is that Islamists are consistent in their honor of the holy texts?

see it however you want.

 

[BEER]

see it however you want.

Oh I will.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

Oh I will.

lol, yes, i am aware.

 

[Cole train]

That bad, eh ?

Even worse

They have started to move back there from here

The horror

 

[nicapica]

They just created the law 2 years ago. So they moved to a country, followed the laws, and then new laws were created to target them. You may personally support that type of thing, but you can’t blame them for being upset. I think it’s disingenuous to ignore the fact that the law was not in place when they chose to move there. The whole, “If you don’t like it gtfo” line that people pull is essentially just a dismissive way to support stripping specific people of freedoms. They love to say it until they are the ones targeted, then they aren’t so cavalier.



But she’s precisely correct, right? Laws were specifically created to restrict her ability to wear a burqa. You may agree with the law, and you may hate Islam (you’ve always made that very clear), but she’s not saying anything untrue.

I don’t care what these countries do. They can vote for leaders who support whatever policies they want to see in place. But I hope that America will remain a place where religious freedom is in tact, and continue to set that example for the world.

One thing you’ll never hear from me are the words, “If you don’t like it, GTFO” to anybody who is a citizen of my country. Who the hell am I to tell somebody to leave a country? And where would my country be if everybody was always so ignorant? We’d be stuck in the culture of the 18th century.

Imagine how high this dudes blood pressure is. Lol.