Two years after the Danish burqa ban - "Muslim women isolate themselves"

[sweede]

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/skane/22-boter-for-att-bara-burka-eller-niqab

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/utrikes/tva-ar-efter-danska-burkaforbudet-muslimska-kvinnor-isolerar-sig

The Danish police have handed out 60 fines since the controversial ban on the burqa and niqab came into force exactly two years ago. But the ban has led to more and more Muslim women isolating themselves, says an expert.

- I believe that the law has had the opposite effect than the vast majority of politicians had imagined, says sociologist of religion Brian Arly Jacobsen to Danish DR.

Anyone who wears the full-covering garments burka and niqab in a public place in Denmark risks a fine of DKK 1,000 in the first violation of the law since 1 August 2018. If this happens repeatedly, the amount can be increased to 10,000 Danish kroner.

Protesters wearing cans in Copenhagen before demonstration against the Burqa ban Photo: Mads Claus Rasmussen / AP / TT

The bill was surrounded by internal party political divisions and received harsh criticism, but once in the Danish Parliament, the law was hammered through by a clear majority since the opposition party the Social Democrats turned and gave the green light.

- For us, it is crucial that the burqa ban is used to detect social control and oppression of women, for which the burqa is a symbol, and that we ensure help for the women who live in oppression, said the Social Democrats' legal policy spokeswoman Trine Bramsen then, according to Danish DR .

But that has not happened. Instead, the law has had the opposite effect, says Brian Arly Jacobsen, associate professor of sociology of religion at the University of Copenhagen.

- If the intention was that women in burkas and niqabs would be released, then at least my experience is based on the people I talked to that they were more isolated in their homes, Jacobsen says to DR.

One of those affected by the ban is 32-year-old Sarah Ali, who has worn the niqab for almost half of her life.

- I have not ridden in public transport in two years and Denmark has restricted my freedom to move in public spaces, says Ali.

Among other things, the law has made her abandon her studies at school to read online instead.

- I have gone from being an outgoing and happy girl to preferring to be at home, I isolate myself.

Women protested after the law was introduced in Denmark in August 2018. Photo: Martin Sylvest / AP

Since the law, which makes it illegal to cover the face, came into force, the police have handed out 60 fines. But a significant proportion of them have been for covering their faces in other ways than with a burqa or niqab. The reason for the low number of fines is partly due to the fact that the police do not prioritize the issue sufficiently, according to the Danish People's Party's Peter Skaarup.

- It is good that the law was introduced and it should remain, but it must be maintained more strictly.

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Hello everyone. If anyone is wondering if I and some other Swedish members on this site have died due to Chinese illness, I want to disappoint you. It has been a hectic spring and summer when my family has moved to another city. I also got a new job so everything just feels great.

These months without any news updates from MMA and this forum has done me good. One thing I came to reflect on is how Americans in general on this site are so fulfilled about race. And these thoughts you are trying to transfer to us other foreigners who did not grow up with this way of thinking. Otherwise, I think that the atmosphere between left and right is so toxic that no one can feel good about being around such an environment.

In this article that was broadcast on Swedish news, there are 2 things that upset us Swedes. One is the so-called moderate Muslims who admire the Nordic model but can not understand us when we say that these garments are a way of oppressing women. The other is the women who stand up and demand to be heard and that it is their own choice and that countries like Denmark are now restricting their freedom. These women who think they had more freedom in the countries they came from are something that ponder us Swedes. In many ways, I perceive Islam as double-faced, even deceitful.

 

[Cole train]

you missed some epic stuff

war rooms has been quite a storm from spring to this summer

 

[Final Say]

If the women want to wear them, they should be allowed. Not sure how any decent person could disagree with that.

 

[sangreporsangre]

If their religion won't let them go outside without being dressed like a ninja, then their religion is shit. Most likely they're afraid of catching a beating or "honour" killing from their father, brother or husband. That's not the state of Denmark's fault that they belong to such a misogynistic, evil ideology. Of course, these laws banning face coverings look kind of ridiculous when juxtaposed with laws that mandate face coverings though eh lmao. Not sure what the covid situation in Denmark is right now or if they have to wear masks in public like we do here.

 

[Confucamus]

Women entering some many majority muslim countries are obligated to cover their head. If these women don't like it, they can move to a country where they can freely remain covered while out in public. Point is, if you move to a country, respect their laws and integrate into their society.

 

[vengeful]

Women entering some many majority muslim countries are obligated to cover their head. If these women don't like it, they can move to a country where they can freely remain covered while out in public. Point is, if you move to a country, respect their laws and integrate into their society.

Hmmmm, when Lebron and the NBA were in China did you agree that Lebron shouldn't criticize the Chinese government since that's illegal to do in China?

 

[Bloody Pulp]

Hmmmm, when Lebron and the NBA were in China did you agree that Lebron shouldn't criticize the Chinese government since that's illegal to do in China?

he definitely shouldn’t do it while IN China. Not beyond the realm of possibility that they’d even arrest him and throw his ass in a prison over there. Just like talking shit about Islam is best done outside of an Islamic town or country.

 

[SATW]

banning burqa to make them westerners

 

[TheGreatA]

Plenty of Muslim countries where they can wear the burqa.

 

[Renard]

I went on few dates with a Muslim girl (more moderate, no hijab) and at first things seemed fine. But she would constantly agree with everything I said. When I asked her opinion on something, she would wait and see what I would say before then agreeing with whatever I said. She would follow me everywhere I went, she was afraid of walking in front of me because it's not allowed in her country. At some point she had a mental breakdown and started screaming at me because I teased her and asked her to pick a restaurant. Things ended there.

This is how it goes in their country. They're deeply brainwashed, they're not allowed to disagree with whatever a man says, and this is drilled into them from a young age. Basically they're not allowed to be people, they're mirrors. And if you put them in a position where you expect them to act like an independent human being, they don't know what to do and they become distressed.

That being said, it doesn't mean we need to "accommodate" their insecurities. It's really up to them to evolve as people, learn to become independent and navigate western societies.

 

[Staph infection]

If they don't like it they can go back to their home countries but then they cannot live of the welfare system.

 

[Grenz]

Plenty of Muslim countries where they can wear the burqa.

I usually shy away from the “if you don’t like it, leave” rhetoric, but in this case it’s like:

So you are so committed to the orthodox practice of your religion that you can’t make any compromise whatsoever, yet you chose to move to a country that’s full of atheists and religious practitioners of the most liberal kind. That seems unwise. Sort of like if I insisted on carrying on my drinking and promiscuous ways and chose to move to Saudi Arabia.

 

[TheGreatA]

I usually shy away from the “if you don’t like it, leave” rhetoric, but in this case it’s like:

So you are so committed to the orthodox practice of your religion that you can’t make any compromise whatsoever, yet you chose to move to a country that’s full of atheists and religious practitioners of the most liberal kind. That seems unwise. Sort of like if I insisted on carrying on my drinking and promiscuous ways and chose to move to Saudi Arabia.

Exactly. If I go to Saudi Arabia, I'll respect their laws, even if I don't agree with them personally. But these same people come here and basically try to change our laws to fit their views, and pour an enormous amount of money into changing our culture.

That's just not going to happen. We can't have girls in schools wearing full-face masks, or women working jobs with full-face masks. It's pretty obvious that the burqa is basically designed to hinder a woman's development and destroy any sense of independence that they may have, making it borderline impossible for them to have social relations with anyone outside of their immediate circle. It kills off their chance to work a proper job or go to school without a huge amount of concessions made towards them specifically, while everyone else has to adhere to the expected standards.

It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. We can't have that happen here, even if the innocent and naive souls who believe that "people should wear whatever they want" think that it ought to pass. It simply shouldn't. There's hardly an argument in favour of it, outside of the usual "why do you care bro, just let people live how they want to, dude". As if these people have grown up so independent to make that choice for themselves. As if there aren't a million strings being pulled by a demanding and restrictive religious community (sometimes to the point of violence and even murder), to prevent any such independent choices from being made.

This is a secular state, this is a state where the genders are equal in the eyes of the law, and it is also a welfare state which puts certain expectations on people's ability to contribute, including the women. If 50% of the people that are immigrating, are never going to contribute due to "religious convictions", then they are simply incompatible with the ways of the country that they're immigrating to.

Here in North Europe we cannot afford a situation where we have a bunch of stay-home moms pushing out kids, who then grow up in low-income ethnic/cultural/religious enclaves, where they come to hate the country that they are living in, while idealizing the countries that they immigrated from, eventually usurping the native population due to high birth rates. We don't have the resources, we don't have the effort to spare, to prevent this from happening. It's tough enough running the highest standard of a welfare state without any natural resources outside of our working population and the system which manages to make the most out of them, because we've truly paid attention to which practises are the most optimal rather than just clinging onto traditions, long past their expiration date.

It's best that these people just realize that their future is in Muslim countries, living under Sharia law, where they can live off the land (a.k.a oil money), without things ever needing to change to fit the modern world's requirements, instead of trying to change the most secular and liberal states in the world to be accepting of their (failing) practises.

 

[nostradumbass]

Plenty of Muslim countries where they can wear the burqa.

Or a US blue state where covering your face in public is now mandatory.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Or a US blue state where covering your face in public is now mandatory.

dont like it, move to a country that is capable of keeping corona under control.

 

[nostradumbass]

dont like it, move to a country that is capable of keeping corona under control.

You mean like the one this thread is about?

 

[Badger67]

"Isolating themselves"

Right right. I knew it.

 

[lifelessheap]

Move back to your Muslim shithole and be free to be treated like a dog.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Exactly. If I go to Saudi Arabia, I'll respect their laws, even if I don't agree with them personally. But these same people come here and basically try to change our laws to fit their views, and pour an enormous amount of money in changing our culture.

That's just not going to happen. We can't have girls in schools wearing full-face masks, or women working jobs with full-face masks. It's pretty obvious that the burqa is basically designed to hinder a woman's development and destroy any sense of independence that they may have, making it borderline impossible for them to have social relations with anyone outside of their immediate circle. It kills off their chance to work a proper job or go to school without a huge amount of concessions made towards them specifically, while everyone else has to adhere to the expected standards.

It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. We can't have that happen here, even if the innocent and naive souls who believe that "people should wear whatever they want" think that it ought to pass. It simply shouldn't. There's hardly an argument in favour of it, outside of the usual "why do you care bro, just let people live how they want to, dude". As if these people have grown up so independent to make that choice for themselves. As if there aren't a million strings being pulled by a demanding and restrictive religious community (sometimes to the point of violence and even murder), to prevent any such independent choices from being made.

This is a secular state, this is a state where the genders are equal in the eyes of the law, and it is also a welfare state which puts certain expectations on people's ability to contribute, including the women. If 50% of the people that are immigrating, are never going to contribute due to "religious convictions", then they are simply incompatible with the ways of the country that they're immigrating to.

Here in North Europe we cannot afford a situation where we have a bunch of stay-home moms pushing out kids, who then grow up in low-income ethnic/cultural/religious enclaves, where they come to hate the country that they are living in, while idealizing the countries that they immigrated from, eventually usurping the native population due to high birth rates. We don't have the resources, we don't have the effort to spare, to prevent this from happening. It's tough enough running the highest standard of a welfare state without any natural resources outside of our working population and the system which manages to make the most out of them, because we've truly paid attention to which practises are the most optimal rather than just clinging onto traditions, long past their expiration date.

It's best that these people just realize that their future is in Muslim countries, living under Sharia law, where they can live off the land (a.k.a oil money), without things ever needing to change to fit the modern world's requirements, instead of trying to change the most secular and liberal states in the world to be accepting of their (failing) practises.

To a progressive it seems that the only possible choice made of free will is that of a Muslima to have to wear a mask when she goes outside. If you didn't hire a black guy to work for your company, or wouldn't date a transwoman, it's due to unconscious bias. If a "BIPOC" person commits violent crimes, it's not their fault, it's due to the system of white supremacy that pervades our entire world.

They apply this framework to literally every decision made by anyone, but a Muslim women in a Western liberal democracy who says she can't leave home without covering her face has come to that mindset all by herself, without any cultural pressures. And if you don't agree, you're racist.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

If their religion won't let them go outside without being dressed like a ninja, then their religion is shit. Most likely they're afraid of catching a beating or "honour" killing from their father, brother or husband. That's not the state of Denmark's fault that they belong to such a misogynistic, evil ideology. Of course, these laws banning face coverings look kind of ridiculous when juxtaposed with laws that mandate face coverings though eh lmao. Not sure what the covid situation in Denmark is right now or if they have to wear masks in public like we do here.

Decades ago I got in shit at work for calling a hijab wearing lady a ninja and pretending to throw a throwing star and a smoke bomb to escape the room. Wow... she and HR did not find that funny at all.