Two years after the Danish burqa ban - "Muslim women isolate themselves"

Your way of talking reminds me of someone I know who's also a high school teacher. Ultimately I've concluded that his way of viewing the world is derived from his nurturing / supportive personality type rather than from reality. Essentially the personality type predates everything else (high openness, high agreeableness) leading to choice of career and unconscious interpretations of student behaviour - namely discarding of the negative. Rosy lens find rosy conclusions. I have family members who have taught all levels of school to immigrants and say they're a complete nightmare. Potayto, potahto.

I've mostly had contact with well-educated immigrants, and they're all very nonplussed about being in Canada. Whenever the topic of why they chose Canada comes up, they inevitably say they're only here because their home country is a dumpster fire and they tried getting into X or Y country as a first choice but getting into Canada was easy. Love it, love being the country you kinda don't like but was easy to get into. I've heard the same story so many times, it's almost a gag. A couple of them complain about having to learn English. I've met some unpleasant ones who complained about having to change anything about their behaviour because "We invited them" and somehow we're the ones who owe them now. Somehow they're always "not sure if they're going to stay" and lay roots. I have a friend who's bought a house but has owned no furniture for the past 2 years because he's "not sure" yet. The only immigrants I've met that were enthusiastic about their move were Europeans who had options. If anything we should make it harder to get in just so the people who get in actually want to be here and appreciate it.

That's honestly not been my experience. That may be because I'm dealing with the kids, or it may be because my school is especially good at dealing with kids from all sorts of backgrounds with all sorts of needs. I will agree that most of these people are not in Canada because that was their first choice and they just couldn't wait to get to Canada. For one thing, we're not even on the radar internationally. For another, it's damned cold here.

But that wasn't the point I was making. My point was that I talk to guys who lived in, say, Jordan for instance, and felt they were treated as unwelcome second class citizens, and don't feel like that here. All I get from them is gratitude for any bit of help I give them. Ditto for the girls who often are just really happy to be allowed to come to school and learn.

I really and truly haven't seen any of what you're talking about.
 
I don't think this law is really about rescuing women ostensibly subjugated by wearing the burka. I think the intent here is to codify into law a fundamental tenet of a liberal culture: there are no second class citizens here. The burka creates a divide, where on one hand you have a group of people who's appearance is acceptable in public under some very forgiving rules (as man, other than wearing pants, you're basically free to wear whatever you want) and on the other a group who's appearance in public is only acceptable under strict, literally draconian guidelines.

You can argue that it's their choice. Sure, it is, as is everything else if you believe in free will. But the motivation behind the choice is the problem. Women in Iran don't walk around covered up because it makes them feel liberated, they do it because defying this expectation is basically an open invitation for sexual assault. Perhaps in Denmark they wouldn't have to be so worried about that? Ok, then what about their family? Are the males just going to be cool with their choice to defy tradition? Maybe, or maybe they'll disown her...or worse.

Well... but I don't disagree with any of that. That's exactly the point of my post. The problem is that the law, as written and enforced, has the opposite effect as what is intended. You are taking the most oppressed of these women out of the public square entirely because, yes, they are at risk of all sorts of abuse at the hands of the men in their lives if they go out without their faces covered.

That's the problem. You're decreasing the freedoms of these women to be part of the community, and increasing the risks for these women to be abused at home, without doing anything to curb the abuse itself. I don't give a shit about the "religious rights" of the people who make the lives of these women so dangerous. But I do care about the women. I don't see how we can project our disgust and distaste for their situation onto them and feel like we've done something good and prevented them from being second class citizens.
 
If the women want to wear them, they should be allowed. Not sure how any decent person could disagree with that.

Conservative Muslims need to take a page from the Mormon playbook... If your religion involves belief in sacred garments wear them UNDER your regular clothing. Problem solved.
 
I'm not sure it is the goal of the Danish state to "rescue" Muslim women though? I must have missed where they said that. Seems like they just don't want these women walking around their streets in masks like that, they don't like this extremist version of Islam in their country. They're giving these people the choice to reject the more barbaric practices to try and fit in with Danish society better, and they will have a much better experience. Encouraging Muslim immigrants to either assimilate as much as possible or find another European country to live in. Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, if voters there don't like the policies they know what to do.

I don't know what exactly it is you want the Danish government to do to rescue Muslim women, all they can do is have a good process in place for assisting women who want to escape abusive domestic situations. I have no idea if Denmark has that or not although that part of the world is known for having efficient social policies. Other than that I don't really know what you want me to do here. If the burqa ban really upsets you so much maybe write a strongly worded email to the Danish ambassador of your country or something.

That's the point I'm making, really. You can't have a good process in place for helping women escape abusive domestic situations if you've passed a law that basically confines them to their homes.

Likewise, you can't expect people to assimilate if they are put in a position where they are cut off from the larger society. I get that you could argue that they can assimilate if they want just by removing their face coverings, but that's not how assimilation works. Welcome me in, give me social connections. Show me the benefits of the culture around me. Make me feel safe. And then, as a step in my larger assimilation process, I will remove my Burqa or Niqab.
 
Holy shit you’re alive @sweede ?

Was kinda wondering if you got Covided for good with when you went absent and cases rising in Sweden
 
The "Muslim shithole" argument is pretty out-dated too since a lot of these places look pretty nice because of oil money (the ones that aren't actively being bombed to shit for no reason, that is).

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Meanwhile in Finland:

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A lot of these guys are in for a huge disappointment when they move to Nordic low-income neighbourhoods. Literal USSR-style architecture in many places.
Having money and being civilized are two different things.

Unless you are of a certain class in those countries you will not be enjoying the nice places in those countries.
 
When Muslim women decide that they've had enough then their lives will be better. Nothing that we do will change their lot in life. Many Muslim countries were moderate and modern. Women wore makeup and dressed in the prevailing fashion of the time. Then Shia Muslims brought on radical changes and regressed entire nations like Iran into the dark ages.

If Muslims want to embrace this fine. If they want to return to a time when people could listen to whatever music they like, wear makeup, and "gasp" wear modest length skirts that's fine too. If your lifestyle and culture is incompatible with the laws and culture of your new country then f*ck you. Choose a new culture or a Country that suits your culture.
 
It’s funny how lefty social engineers like dictating to individuals how they should live and dress.

ppl should be allowed to dress however they want.

that doesn’t mean the other lefty approach is any better where entire society has to bend over backwards to accommodate these ppl.

There are social norms in society you live in that you gotta go by or you’ll be a social outcast.

Its as simple as that.
 
It's quite amusing to read my alerts. I did not know that I was so popular to discuss among those with opposite values than mine. To discuss months later that I wanted to use violence as a saying goes a lot about these people. A group of gossiping ladies.

I hope so too. He was definitely a bigot but at the same time as odd as it sounds I don't think he was a bad guy at heart, just misguided and not very self aware.

How much did you pay to become a moderator? I thought moderators would be neutral without biased opinions. You are prone to insult others and see yourself as a better person, but you are not fooling me. You may act like the nice moderate Muslim, but whatever situation invites that to condemnation, you have an ability to always protect your religion. One can also not get any sensible answers from you as you are so vague in your comments. If I myself were to produce some highlights from everything you have written, I can not come up with one as you are like an automatic answering machine without feelings or passion. I think you once answered a member about where you stand politically, and you replied that you were evolving. No solid or concrete just lots of lubrication.

I love America but there are lots of things about it that I don't like.

Then you say you love your country, but at the same time you talk so much shit about the country that welcomed you. And only on this page I have found types like you who put your words in my mouth. When I speak negatively about Islam, you just can not stop yourself but make it a racial issue. It's you who use brown people bad. Your mind-reading abilities are absolutely not enough.

What comes next? @Goonerview as Moderator?
 
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Holy shit you’re alive @sweede ?

Was kinda wondering if you got Covided for good with when you went absent and cases rising in Sweden

I have not reached retirement age yet! But as I said, it's too bad that so many have died in our retirement homes. One clue is the many privately owned ones that are mostly for making money, not giving old people a dignified final chapter in their lives.

Many of my thoughts, however, have gone to NHL-player Oskar Lindblom who has fought against skeletal cancer. No one should be exposed to this at such a young age.
 
I was really close to just responding to this by calling you names, but that's not helpful. Instead I'd like to just put down some things I've observed and respond to you how I would respond if you were a person sitting in front of me.

I'm a high school teacher in Canada in the small city that has taken the second highest percentage of immigrants and refugees in the entire country over the past half decade. These are some things I have learned.

First, this idea that immigrants, and especially Muslim immigrants, are somehow unappreciative of their new lives in their new home countries, is a myth from what I can tell. I've talked with a number of refugee students who came to Canada after a few false starts in neighbouring Middle Eastern countries. They have all told me that they felt unwelcome in those places, and they have nothing but gratitude for the acceptance and opportunity they have received in Canada. I've taught girls in high school classes who haven't been in school since they were 7 or 8 years old who are over the moon excited at their opportunity to be educated. They have none of the tools they need to work at the high school level other than their grit and enthusiasm. I've not met a single immigrant of refugee student, male or female, who has expressed any desire to change anything about our country.

Second, immigrant and refugee alike, these people are not a drain on the system. Yes, it takes some resources to get people set up on an entirely new continent, in an entirely new cultural context, among people who speak an entirely different language. But these are smart, resilient, resourceful people. People who escape deadly war zones, family in tow, to start over on a new continent, are not the type to put their feet up and collect handouts for the rest of their lives. I've taught kids who come to school from 8:30 to 3:30, go to work at some factory from 4:00 to Midnight, go home for 6 or 7 hours of sleep, and come back to school the next morning.

Third, cultural divides are not fixed. People adapt and assimilate. They WANT to adapt and assimilate. But they need time and patience and support, just like you would if the roles were reversed. I taught a girl last year who entered my class at the beginning of the semester wearing the Niqab. About half way through the semester she showed up with her face uncovered, reintroduced herself (I'd only seen her eyes up until that point), and never covered her face again. I'm an English teacher. I've had a number of girls write journals and essays and stories on their emerging thoughts on the possibilities of marrying for love. It's an amazing thing to see them look around at their classmates, and process their new opportunities, and actually desire something better for themselves and work to make that happen.

I'm not an apologist for countries or religions or cultures that treat their people like garbage. But I am a supporter of the people. They are not what they are so often portrayed as being. Those of us who believe in showing sensitivity to their very unique situations as they work to adapt should not be confused with those who are allied with an anti-western agenda.

Likewise, and perhaps more importantly, we should not confuse the obstacles that these people encounter in their efforts to adapt with evidence that they share the anti-western agenda of the people who often use them as tools to attack the west and try to burn it down. Those people have no more genuine interest in the well-being of Muslim migrants than they do in the sanctity of Black Lives.

That's honestly not been my experience. That may be because I'm dealing with the kids, or it may be because my school is especially good at dealing with kids from all sorts of backgrounds with all sorts of needs. I will agree that most of these people are not in Canada because that was their first choice and they just couldn't wait to get to Canada. For one thing, we're not even on the radar internationally. For another, it's damned cold here.

But that wasn't the point I was making. My point was that I talk to guys who lived in, say, Jordan for instance, and felt they were treated as unwelcome second class citizens, and don't feel like that here. All I get from them is gratitude for any bit of help I give them. Ditto for the girls who often are just really happy to be allowed to come to school and learn.

I really and truly haven't seen any of what you're talking about.

Well... but I don't disagree with any of that. That's exactly the point of my post. The problem is that the law, as written and enforced, has the opposite effect as what is intended. You are taking the most oppressed of these women out of the public square entirely because, yes, they are at risk of all sorts of abuse at the hands of the men in their lives if they go out without their faces covered.

That's the problem. You're decreasing the freedoms of these women to be part of the community, and increasing the risks for these women to be abused at home, without doing anything to curb the abuse itself. I don't give a shit about the "religious rights" of the people who make the lives of these women so dangerous. But I do care about the women. I don't see how we can project our disgust and distaste for their situation onto them and feel like we've done something good and prevented them from being second class citizens.

That's the point I'm making, really. You can't have a good process in place for helping women escape abusive domestic situations if you've passed a law that basically confines them to their homes.

Likewise, you can't expect people to assimilate if they are put in a position where they are cut off from the larger society. I get that you could argue that they can assimilate if they want just by removing their face coverings, but that's not how assimilation works. Welcome me in, give me social connections. Show me the benefits of the culture around me. Make me feel safe. And then, as a step in my larger assimilation process, I will remove my Burqa or Niqab.

I want to start by thanking you for your input, thoughts and experiences in this thread.

Once not so long ago, I had many of your thoughts in my daily schedule. Showing patience and giving lots of chances was a big part of my previous work. Much of this dedication and enthusiasm for helping others in a worse situation than my own is something I have learned from my parents. And my political party has been the Social Democrats and the moderate left throughout my life. I have since a year ago been redirected to another position and so I have changed political party. The party I have chosen is called the moderates (M) and they have a lot about finances in their agenda and if you guess correctly they are positive to a low tax on your income.

Until recently, Sweden had no ceiling on how many people were allowed to come to us. But the majority of all parties except the extreme left now have a platform where they are fairly united and that it must put a number on how many can come per year for it to be sustainable for Sweden's economy and cultural situation at all.

What has been strong, was stable economy we have been accustomed to. The welfare that we have taken for granted has slowly been dismantled due to redirections of money to the new arrivals. The previous government and the current, both historically largest opposition parties shared some thoughts. The fact that the establishment period from the time newcomers have learned the language, completed an education and entered the labor market was far too positive thinking. Swedish television conducted a survey 20 years back in time when Sweden received large groups of Iraqis and Afghans. Of the able-bodied, only 20% had a permanent job after 20 years in Sweden. In 2015, you have probably heard that we opened our borders and there were a huge number of Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans and Somalis. The future prognose is the same. The government's view that people should come to work after a few years does not correspond to reality.

Without repeating myself, you are welcome to read more in the Sweden thread. But what separates Sweden and Canada is the number and clientele of people. Canada has received many, but has had the resources to do so. What type of refugees have you received? Families or unaccompanied young men? Sometimes it is easy to forget certain equations because you want to paint your own country's reputation for being humane, but in the end, reality comes into play and when it does, it strikes one with full force. I have a great deal of experience with this phenomenon.
 
I want to start by thanking you for your input, thoughts and experiences in this thread.

Once not so long ago, I had many of your thoughts in my daily schedule. Showing patience and giving lots of chances was a big part of my previous work. Much of this dedication and enthusiasm for helping others in a worse situation than my own is something I have learned from my parents. And my political party has been the Social Democrats and the moderate left throughout my life. I have since a year ago been redirected to another position and so I have changed political party. The party I have chosen is called the moderates (M) and they have a lot about finances in their agenda and if you guess correctly they are positive to a low tax on your income.

Until recently, Sweden had no ceiling on how many people were allowed to come to us. But the majority of all parties except the extreme left now have a platform where they are fairly united and that it must put a number on how many can come per year for it to be sustainable for Sweden's economy and cultural situation at all.

What has been strong, was stable economy we have been accustomed to. The welfare that we have taken for granted has slowly been dismantled due to redirections of money to the new arrivals. The previous government and the current, both historically largest opposition parties shared some thoughts. The fact that the establishment period from the time newcomers have learned the language, completed an education and entered the labor market was far too positive thinking. Swedish television conducted a survey 20 years back in time when Sweden received large groups of Iraqis and Afghans. Of the able-bodied, only 20% had a permanent job after 20 years in Sweden. In 2015, you have probably heard that we opened our borders and there were a huge number of Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans and Somalis. The future prognose is the same. The government's view that people should come to work after a few years does not correspond to reality.

Without repeating myself, you are welcome to read more in the Sweden thread. But what separates Sweden and Canada is the number and clientele of people. Canada has received many, but has had the resources to do so. What type of refugees have you received? Families or unaccompanied young men? Sometimes it is easy to forget certain equations because you want to paint your own country's reputation for being humane, but in the end, reality comes into play and when it does, it strikes one with full force. I have a great deal of experience with this phenomenon.



No country should be forced to change its demographics.
 
Conservative Muslims need to take a page from the Mormon playbook... If your religion involves belief in sacred garments wear them UNDER your regular clothing. Problem solved.
Lol I’m not sure how to take this post :D
 
I went on few dates with a Muslim girl (more moderate, no hijab) and at first things seemed fine. But she would constantly agree with everything I said. When I asked her opinion on something, she would wait and see what I would say before then agreeing with whatever I said. She would follow me everywhere I went, she was afraid of walking in front of me because it's not allowed in her country. At some point she had a mental breakdown and started screaming at me because I teased her and asked her to pick a restaurant. Things ended there.

This is how it goes in their country. They're deeply brainwashed, they're not allowed to disagree with whatever a man says, and this is drilled into them from a young age. Basically they're not allowed to be people, they're mirrors. And if you put them in a position where you expect them to act like an independent human being, they don't know what to do and they become distressed.

That being said, it doesn't mean we need to "accommodate" their insecurities. It's really up to them to evolve as people, learn to become independent and navigate western societies.

A woman who actually listened to you, agreed with what you said and let you make decisions? It sounds like you had the perfect woman and you let her go.
 
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