Opinion Trump orders swathes of US forests to be cut down for timber

[Andy Capp]

Are you? Because my defiance has repeatedly been mistaken for deflection and denial, if not outright endorsement. If I support border security and the enforcement of my country's territorial integrity, I must be in favor of everything else, even if those things have less than nothing to do with each other. I'm curious as to whether anybody else posting in this thread (aside from jk7707) with a sudden urgent concern for American forests knew the NWPS even existed, lol.

Yes, I am. My inquiry has nothing to do with any other policy or action of Trump's except in as much as it might influence confidence in whether these laws you revere (admirably) will be respected. You argue that the sudden concern over forestry is dumb and uninformed because of the legislation you posted, but what if Trump disregards it out of hand? I think there is a pretty good chance he will and I would like to know what you think.

This is quoted directly from the executive order; what onerous Federal policies do you think he's referring to here?

The United States has an abundance of timber resources that are more than adequate to meet our domestic timber production needs, but heavy-handed Federal policies have prevented full utilization of these resources and made us reliant on foreign producers. Our inability to fully exploit our domestic timber supply has impeded the creation of jobs and prosperity, contributed to wildfire disasters, degraded fish and wildlife habitats, increased the cost of construction and energy, and threatened our economic security. These onerous Federal policies have forced our Nation to rely upon imported lumber, thus exporting jobs and prosperity and compromising our self-reliance. It is vital that we reverse these policies and increase domestic timber production to protect our national and economic security.

 

[evergreenrider]

You Called It.



Are you? Because my defiance has repeatedly been mistaken for deflection and denial, if not outright endorsement. If I support border security and the enforcement of my country's territorial integrity, I must be in favor of everything else, even if those things have less than nothing to do with each other. I'm curious as to whether anybody else posting in this thread (aside from jk7707) with a sudden urgent concern for American forests knew the NWPS even existed, lol.












This is going to be furiously wall to wall ligitated through the eyeballs and out the asshole. They allegedly want to "sidestep" the Endangered Species Act, and I'm sure that will go completely unchallenged. Jesus Christ. As it stands, one-half of 1% of US national forest lands are harvested for timber use each year.




It suggests that the GYE and NCDE - two of the most cherished, intact, and well protected ecosystems on the entire planet - no longer have any old growth forest left. It's hilariously fake shit that got a reaction from nine people (@Crazy Source, @evergreenrider, @Andy Capp, @deviake, @no fat chicks, @Thepaintbucket, @curryjunkie, @Blayt7hh, @shinkyoku) who now foolishly believe that. It's the innocuous ignorance I referred to earlier, and it cultivates a defeatist attitude. This MOG map from Wild Heritage and Woodell Climate Research is far more based on reality.

After hearing his calls for deregulation, I'm glad you're this confident.

 

[Deorum]

Are you, of all people still trying to support this?

US Forest Service fires 3,400 workers, Park Service cuts 1,000

This is the third time I'm going to quote this because it's genuinely appalling and ridiculous, particularly as someone who would gladly double your salary if I could -- in addition to spending my own money and volunteering my own time in support of the NPS mission. I do have to say that if the park service is so underfunded and shortstaffed (IT IS), then it probably isn't the best idea to waste time hanging upside down American flags from El Capitan or using up valuable resources to host Pride Parades in the middle of Yosemite Valley. In any case, I never supported the firings or hiring freezes.

Nothing says "deep state bureaucrat" like a park ranger or forest manager out in the field, making peanuts for compensation, and working thousands of miles from Washington DC. There's about 99% certainty that shithouse sentiment comes from people who live east of the 100th meridian (albeit in part because 80% of the entire American population does). They think the land belongs to "The Feds" rather than the American People and take no pride of ownership. They don't experience or interact with it outside of one-off vacations for a few days at most. The attacks on the NPS and public lands in general are not supported by Westerners regardless of political identity or affiliation -- but even if you broke it down like that:

How Interior secretary review of monuments and public lands could affect Arizona

In one of his first secretarial orders, Doug Burgum ordered staff to review public lands with an eye toward opening them to mining or drilling.

www.azcentral.com

Public sentiment to preserve national monuments remains high. Colorado College’s 2024 State of the Rockies Conservation in the West poll found that 85 percent of Western voters support creating new national parks, national monuments and wildlife refuges and tribal protected areas to protect historic sites or areas of outdoor recreation. The survey also found that 71% of Republican voters in the West are more likely to support a leader who “designated new national parks and national monuments.”

We like it this way; it's one of the biggest reasons why we live here.

One of the biggest reasons American national parks are spared that kind of fate aside from incredibly stringent, permanent protections passed by Acts of Congress is due to the fact that they are already de facto monetized as massive boons to the tourism and outdoor recreation industries with thriving gateway towns. It's more economically sustainable than exploiting them for finite natural resources.

This is now a necessity unless the firings and freezes are reconsidered and promptly reversed. South Rim is an absolute circus right now with traffic congestion and wait lines comparable to the height of peak season -- and we're still months away from Memorial Day. It's going to be such an aggravating and disappointing experience for so many people this year. Don't be among them, and straight-up plan on the NR. I have all the info you would ever need.

I even told curryjunkie what was going to happen as a result.

The core mandate of the NPS and national park system is the preservation and protection of the natural resources, ecosystems, and wildlife therein to be left unimpaired for future generations. It will force the NPS to place severe restrictions on public access, and people will be livid. They'll have to walk it back, hire a bunch of rangers back, and it will be another embarrassment when all they had to do was not fuck with it in the first place. Or Trump will double down, force them to stay open, and America's greatest heritage will be rapidly degraded and destroyed. I don't that's the look he wants for 250.

Lo and Behold, Burgum is now talking about needing an additional 5,000 seasonal NPS employees for the Summer months.

 

[deviake]

You Called It.



Are you? Because my defiance has repeatedly been mistaken for deflection and denial, if not outright endorsement. If I support border security and the enforcement of my country's territorial integrity, I must be in favor of everything else, even if those things have less than nothing to do with each other. I'm curious as to whether anybody else posting in this thread (aside from jk7707) with a sudden urgent concern for American forests knew the NWPS even existed, lol.












This is going to be furiously wall to wall ligitated through the eyeballs and out the asshole. They allegedly want to "sidestep" the Endangered Species Act, and I'm sure that will go completely unchallenged. Jesus Christ. As it stands, one-half of 1% of US national forest lands are harvested for timber use each year.




It suggests that the GYE and NCDE - two of the most cherished, intact, and well protected ecosystems on the entire planet - no longer have any old growth forest left. It's hilariously fake shit that got a reaction from nine people (@Crazy Source, @evergreenrider, @Andy Capp, @deviake, @no fat chicks, @Thepaintbucket, @curryjunkie, @Blayt7hh, @shinkyoku) who now foolishly believe that. It's the innocuous ignorance I referred to earlier, and it cultivates a defeatist attitude. This MOG map from Wild Heritage and Woodell Climate Research is far more based on reality.

I hope you're right and yeah, you sure as shit know more about this than I do. What I do know? Trump doesn't give a fuck about the law or environmental regulations. Doge is being litigated too. Ain't stopping a fuckin thing so far. You could tell me this crazy asshole wants to nuke the international space station and I'd barely bat an eyelash at this point. I absolutely hope you're right.

 

[Islam Imamate]

 

[Deorum]

I’ll grant you that I believe your graphic more, but it’s not exactly a good news story. That’s ones pretty disheartening to. So what’s your point? That yes it is really bad but not quite that bad?

I think most people are aware that we haven’t been harvesting what’s left recently, but tell me with a straight face that you aren’t worried we won’t open it up to harvesting under this administration. You are a fool if you don’t think they’ll do that if they see an opportunity.

Is the existence of the United States disheartening? Civilization is what was built on it and why it's gone. Europeans fucked this place up and course corrected before it was too late. We would have none of it left without the wilderness conservation movement. It's why national parks are considered America's best idea and got exported across the world as every nation rapidly industrialized. It's a magnificent story and worth the continued fight for, that's my point.

 

[Sweater of AV]

You Called It.



Are you? Because my defiance has repeatedly been mistaken for deflection and denial, if not outright endorsement. If I support border security and the enforcement of my country's territorial integrity, I must be in favor of everything else, even if those things have less than nothing to do with each other. I'm curious as to whether anybody else posting in this thread (aside from jk7707) with a sudden urgent concern for American forests knew the NWPS even existed, lol.












This is going to be furiously wall to wall litigated through the eyeballs and out the asshole. They allegedly want to "sidestep" the Endangered Species Act, and I'm sure that will go completely unchallenged. Jesus Christ. As it stands, one-half of 1% of US national forest lands are harvested for timber use each year.




It suggests that the GYE and NCDE - two of the most cherished, intact, and well protected ecosystems on the entire planet - no longer have any old growth forest left. It's hilariously fake shit that got a reaction from nine people (@Crazy Source, @evergreenrider, @Andy Capp, @deviake, @no fat chicks, @Thepaintbucket, @curryjunkie, @Blayt7hh, @shinkyoku) who now foolishly believe that. It's the innocuous ignorance I referred to earlier, and it cultivates a defeatist attitude. This MOG map from Wild Heritage and Woodell Climate Research is far more based on reality.

Swing and a miss, Deocan.

This EO sucks and there's literally nothing I like about it

Concession accepted, moron. Get on your knees for Daddy Dump.

 

[Cartiac]

Sounds pretty scary. Has anyone heard if Forrest Griffin is impacted by this slaughter?

 

[Deorum]

After hearing his calls for deregulation, I'm glad you're this confident.

I hope you're right and yeah, you sure as shit know more about this than I do. What I do know? Trump doesn't give a fuck about the law or environmental regulations. Doge is being litigated too. Ain't stopping a fuckin thing so far. You could tell me this crazy asshole wants to nuke the international space station and I'd barely bat an eyelash at this point. I absolutely hope you're right.

I'm confident in my original statement and objection in this thread from the Guardian article (an absolute rag that was just perpetuating an absurd hoax) on America's most prized forests. It was somehow misinterpreted by tourists as support for this stupid shit. We've already had four years of this dude. They will look to fell trees, they will cut regulations, they will shrink national monuments, and you can bet on that. They can't override federal statutes that are codified into United States law, i.e. the ones that protect America's most prized forests. It isn't uncertain. Right now, they can't even get the SCOTUS to agree on stopping billions in foreign aid fraud through USAID, lol. It wasn't long ago that the state of Utah was petitioning for federal land to be handed over with control given to the state (disastrous, huge red flag), and the courts outright dismissed the very idea of it, wouldn't even hear the case.

 

[UberHere]

Half the trumpers here are Canadian immigrants..

I don’t blame them for wanting to live vicariously through us as their silly PM is a strait up embarrassment

 

[ChosenOne]

So slave labour is okay if it's necessary?

I feel like you guys tried that argument once before and it also didn't go your way.

Ya the problem you have is the jobs are 'high paying' jobs for those who live in poor countries and they come here willingly to do it.

You calling it 'slave labor' is magats falling for far left progressive views, that are pushed to them by unions, who want all this work done by unions at very high labor rates.

Are you a magat or far left progressive, as those two now over lap on a lot of issues surprisingly?

 

[deviake]

Ya the problem you have is the jobs are 'high paying' jobs for those who live in poor countries and they come here willingly to do it.

You calling it 'slave labor' is magats falling for far left progressive views, that are pushed to them by unions, who want all this work done by unions at very high labor rates.

Are you a magat or far left progressive, as those two now over lap on a lot of issues surprisingly?

Ah yes, those pesky far left unions wanting people to get paid for their labor and have workplace protections and dignity lmao. And of course immigrants are never exploited. And here we have the majestic, anti-union, anti-labor liberal or centrist (close enough) in his majestic glory, who very possibly has never even worked with people from various countries doing blue collar work and who is excusing sweat shops whilst criticizing progressives for having overlap with MAGA even though a lot of Republican business owners love their cheap labor.

Truly a sight to behold.

 

[Deorum]

Ah yes, those pesky far left unions wanting people to get paid for their labor and have workplace protections and dignity lmao. And of course immigrants are never exploited. And here we have the majestic, anti-union, anti-labor liberal or centrist (close enough) in his majestic glory, who very possibly has never even worked with people from various countries doing blue collar work and who is excusing sweat shops whilst criticizing progressives for having overlap with MAGA even though a lot of Republican business owners love their cheap labor.

Truly a sight to behold.

You are unwavering in your beliefs and principles, mad respect. I still remember the bangers you were dropping when the Vivek H1B "Lazy Americans" debacle was going down around Christmas, heh. It kind of got me wondering if you would be down to rock with a third-party that advocated for robust national defense, border security, and self-defense laws tied to the 2A if it meant you got strong labor protections, universal healthcare, and a sturdy social safety net in return? The cherry on top would be the commitment to wilderness preservation and the right of all citizens to have access to nature, clean air, and clean water.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Swing and a miss, Deocan.



Concession accepted, moron. Get on your knees for Daddy Dump.

I have far less faith that Trump will respect court orders than Deorum has but nonetheless he has a point which you dodged here.

Trump is promising a lot which will hinge on court battles where he has dubious standing and while I do think Trump will push back against the judiciary in an unprecedented way that will erode our checks and balances, is timber the hill he's going to die on? Doubtful.

Trump's main priorities are mass deportation and weaponizing the DOJ against his political opponents and I suspect it's on those issues that he'll push hardest against any checks and balances and indeed arguably has already. But on this I wouldn't be surprised if he accepts a court ordered L.

You are unwavering in your beliefs and principles, mad respect. I still remember the bangers you were dropping when the Vivek H1B "Lazy Americans" debacle was going down around Christmas, heh. It kind of got me wondering if you would be down to rock with a third-party that advocated for robust national defense, border security, and self-defense laws tied to the 2A if it meant you got strong labor protections, universal healthcare, and a sturdy social safety net in return? The cherry on top would be the commitment to wilderness preservation and the right of all citizens to have access to nature, clean air, and clean water.

Ah so like socialism but more nationally oriented, how come no one ever thought of that before?

 

[Sweater of AV]

I have far less faith that Trump will respect court orders than Deorum has but nonetheless he has a point which you dodged here.

Trump is promising a lot which will hinge on court battles where he has dubious standing and while I do think Trump will push back against the judiciary in an unprecedented way that will erode our checks and balances, is timber the hill he's going to die on? Doubtful.

Trump's main priorities are mass deportation and weaponizing the DOJ against his political opponents and I suspect it's on those issues that he'll push hardest against any checks and balances and indeed arguably has already. But on this I wouldn't be surprised if he accepts a court ordered L.

Ah so like socialism but more nationally oriented, how come no one ever thought of that before?

I haven't dodged anything and my point has been the same the entire time. Deorum talks out of both sides of his mouth. And yes, I'm well aware of what Trump's main priorities are.

I don't think he needs a protector, although it is kind of cute.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I haven't dodged anything and my point has been the same the entire time. Deorum talks out of both sides of his mouth. And yes, I'm well aware of what Trump's main priorities are.

How is he talking or of both sides of his mouth here? He can be critical of Trump on this one issue while still arguing that is not as big a deal as the critics say. That would perfectly describe my take on Biden's pardoning of Hunter which I thought was wrong but in no way vindicated the insane Trumper conspiracies.

I don't think he needs a protector, although it is kind of cute.

I care about the quality of the argument. I disagree with the guy vehemently on other matters but here he's fairly informed about this issue and seems to have made a reasonable counterargument here. For all I know he's dead wrong but you should demonstrate that. And by all means feel free to rub it in his face if he turns out to wrong and in the next four years Trump allows the tearing down of old growth forests.

 

[evergreenrider]

You are unwavering in your beliefs and principles, mad respect. I still remember the bangers you were dropping when the Vivek H1B "Lazy Americans" debacle was going down around Christmas, heh. It kind of got me wondering if you would be down to rock with a third-party that advocated for robust national defense, border security, and self-defense laws tied to the 2A if it meant you got strong labor protections, universal healthcare, and a sturdy social safety net in return? The cherry on top would be the commitment to wilderness preservation and the right of all citizens to have access to nature, clean air, and clean water.

Doggie, loggers deserve a fair wage. It's not safe work. As knowledgeable as you are seemingly when it come to nature, you should know that.

 

[Deorum]

How is he talking or of both sides of his mouth here? He can be critical of Trump on this one issue while still arguing that is not as big a deal as the critics say. That would perfectly describe my take on Biden's pardoning of Hunter which I thought was wrong but in no way vindicated the insane Trumper conspiracies.

I care about the quality of the argument. I disagree with the guy vehemently on other matters but here he's fairly informed about this issue and seems to have made a reasonable counterargument here. For all I know he's dead wrong but you should demonstrate that. And by all means feel free to rub it in his face if he turns out to wrong and in the next four years Trump allows the tearing down of old growth forests.

Has there even been a conversation at all?

Let's run this back.

The Guardian: The future of some of America’s most prized forests now appears uncertain.

Not really, not from this anyway. The most prized forests in America are either part of full blown NPs or fall under the WPA.

They dont see the slippery slope here unfortunately. Too focused on the manufactured social talking points

What social talking points? I've started a half-dozen different threads on this shit. I live in West, I'm familiar with its vast wilderness and aware of the laws that govern it. Claiming the future of America's most pristine forests is uncertain as a result of this EO is nonsense. @Rational Poster's point ITT is also valid.

Dudes really believing they're about to clear cut and lay waste to the Kaibab Plateau and Absaroka Wilderness. Down go the Sequoias even though they make for notoriously bad lumber. I guarantee I will be the first one to start a thread on that, and become a full-fledged terrorist. But it isn't going to happen.

In America, the support for it tends to vary depending on the region. Westerners have a distinctly different POV than the cons who live east of the 100th meridian. The latter have very little opportunity to enjoy, engage, or interact with true wilderness -- and because there's no personal attachment or sense of ownership over public land, they have attitudes that are indifferent at best and wholesale destructive at worst.

Guy loves to pretend to be something he clearly isn't

When Daddy Dump says jump, they ask how high.

The irony of all this shit.



Such an L for Dems from an optics standpoint, @deviake. But at least they passed it, lol. The reauthorization bill comes from a Montana Republican (Steve Daines).

Lawmakers working on Great American Outdoors Act renewal

The law has wide bipartisan support, though one prominent Senate Republican could be a hurdle.

www.eenews.net

Top senators have begun working on reauthorizing the Great American Outdoors Act, a sweeping bill passed during President Donald Trump’s first term to fund maintenance projects at the nation’s national parks.

The law is set to run out of funding in mid-2025, while the deferred maintenance backlog at the Park Service it was intended to address continues to grow. When the bill was signed in 2020, the backlog was at roughly $17 billion, adjusted for inflation. According to the latest figures from fiscal year 2023, that figure has now grown to $23 billion.

That’s despite yearly infusions of $1.9 billion from the law into the Legacy Restoration Fund, which was created by the act to address the deferred maintenance backlog. The bill was passed with an overwhelmingly bipartisan vote in 2020 and signed into law by Trump, who has since returned to the White House.

This EO sucks and there's literally nothing I like about it, I just take exception to hyperbolic claims that prey on people's innocuous ignorance. The good thing is that it will take years to even start acting on this order after the report is submitted and any logging that is done is not going to be perpetrated on "the country's most prized forests" with their multiple layers of legal protections that have been baked into US law over the last century.

"There is just one hope of repulsing the tyrannical ambition of civilization to conquer every niche on the whole earth. That hope is the organization of spirited people who will fight for the freedom of the wilderness."

Are you? Because my defiance has repeatedly been mistaken for deflection and denial, if not outright endorsement. If I support border security and the enforcement of my country's territorial integrity, I must be in favor of everything else, even if those things have less than nothing to do with each other. I'm curious as to whether anybody else posting in this thread (aside from jk7707) with a sudden urgent concern for American forests knew the NWPS even existed, lol.

This is going to be furiously wall to wall litigated through the eyeballs and out the asshole. They allegedly want to "sidestep" the Endangered Species Act, and I'm sure that will go completely unchallenged. Jesus Christ. As it stands, one-half of 1% of US national forest lands are harvested for timber use each year.

It suggests that the GYE and NCDE - two of the most cherished, intact, and well protected ecosystems on the entire planet - no longer have any old growth forest left. It's hilariously fake shit that got a reaction from nine people (@Crazy Source, @evergreenrider, @Andy Capp, @deviake, @no fat chicks, @Thepaintbucket, @curryjunkie, @Blayt7hh, @shinkyoku) who now foolishly believe that. It's the innocuous ignorance I referred to earlier, and it cultivates a defeatist attitude. This MOG map from Wild Heritage and Woodell Climate Research is far more based on reality.

Swing and a miss, Deocan.



Concession accepted, moron. Get on your knees for Daddy Dump.

I'm confident in my original statement and objection in this thread from the Guardian article (an absolute rag that was just perpetuating an absurd hoax) on America's most prized forests. It was somehow misinterpreted by tourists as support for this stupid shit. We've already had four years of this dude. They will look to fell trees, they will cut regulations, they will shrink national monuments, and you can bet on that. They can't override federal statutes that are codified into United States law, i.e. the ones that protect America's most prized forests. It isn't uncertain. Right now, they can't even get the SCOTUS to agree on stopping billions in foreign aid fraud through USAID, lol. It wasn't long ago that the state of Utah was petitioning for federal land to be handed over with control given to the state (disastrous, huge red flag), and the courts outright dismissed the very idea of it, wouldn't even hear the case.

 

[Sweater of AV]

How is he talking or of both sides of his mouth here? He can be critical of Trump on this one issue while still arguing that is not as big a deal as the critics say. That would perfectly describe my take on Biden's pardoning of Hunter which I thought was wrong but in no way vindicated the insane Trumper conspiracies.

I care about the quality of the argument. I disagree with the guy vehemently on other matters but here he's fairly informed about this issue and seems to have made a reasonable counterargument here. For all I know he's dead wrong but you should demonstrate that. And by all means feel free to rub it in his face if he turns out to wrong and in the next four years Trump allows the tearing down of old growth forests.

It's fairly obvious he became "critical" of Trump (was he really critical though? ) after getting made fun of for brushing the entire thing off by playing with the wording of a single statement in the OP when there's obviously far more there, including relating to the ESA, layoffs etc. It's pretty clear he'd rather try to justify it in a sense that doesn't make his favorite politician look that bad, which was the point. "Quality of arguments" is an appropriate term to use.

Anyways, all I really wanted to see was the turn around to:

This EO sucks and there's literally nothing I like about it

I'm good with the outcome here. Good luck to both of you though.

 

[jk7707]

This is the third time I'm going to quote this because it's genuinely appalling and ridiculous, particularly as someone who would gladly double your salary if I could -- in addition to spending my own money and volunteering my own time in support of the NPS mission. I do have to say that if the park service is so underfunded and shortstaffed (IT IS), then it probably isn't the best idea to waste time hanging upside down American flags from El Capitan or using up valuable resources to host Pride Parades in the middle of Yosemite Valley. In any case, I never supported the firings or hiring freezes.





I even told curryjunkie what was going to happen as a result.



Lo and Behold, Burgum is now talking about needing an additional 5,000 seasonal NPS employees for the Summer months.

The guy who planned the hanging of the flag from El Capitan was a fired former park service employee from Yosemite. You know, one of those people that lost their jobs for absolutely no reason.

A Fired Yosemite Locksmith Messages Trump From From the Summit of El Capitan

I'd love to see the quote from Burgum that you're talking about. Because everything I've seen from him, both in the media and sent to to government emails is just incessant talk about energy.