Top 10 Heavyweights ever

[Brazilian007]

I think he's do very well in todays UFC with all the strikers with limited grappling, unlikely for him he was in the era of Fedor, Nog and Barnett.

Yeah but Nog would get destroyed today with all the strikers who have good defensive grappling and takedown defense. Imagine what Ngannou, Stipe, would do and we saw what K1 Werdum did to Nog and we saw what Nelson and Mir and Cain and Struve did

Schilt if he went to a proper camp and drilled grappling defense could do decent. He was 290lbs to 300lbs. He could make the water weight cut but it would be a lot.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Yeah but Nog would get destroyed today with all the strikers who have good defensive grappling and takedown defense. Imagine what Ngannou, Stipe, would do and we saw what K1 Werdum did to Nog and we saw what Nelson and Mir and Cain and Struve did

Schilt if he went to a proper camp and drilled grappling defense could do decent. He was 290lbs to 300lbs. He could make the water weight cut but it would be a lot.

"K-1 Werdum" got boxed up by Nog in ther 1st fight and was losing the second fight standing even against a declined Nog, try again.

 

[Brazilian007]

"K-1 Werdum" got boxed up by Nog in ther 1st fight and was losing the second fight standing even against a declined Nog, try again.

K1 Werdum did not exist against Nog in the first fight and in the 2nd fight Werdum submitted him....

Let us not forget what Struve did to Nog and what Nelson did along with Cain 2/3 of these guys got destroyed by Werdum

 

[Deleted member 110072]

K1 Werdum did not exist against Nog in the first fight and in the 2nd fight Werdum submitted him....

Let us not forget what Struve did to Nog and what Nelson did along with Cain 2/3 of these guys got destroyed by Werdum

Werdum in Pride was actually a pretty good defencive striker training with Crocop even if he didnt have the same threat with knees he devolped at Chute Boxe.

Even the latter Werdum though as I said was losing to a zombie Nog standing in the 2nd fight. You were claiming that was evidence Nog would do badly standing so again you were talking nonsense.

Watching Gane vs Francis as well the idea that defensive grappling is better today? pretty dam questionable. I think its actually dropped off a ton because fighters have so rarely had to face truely dangerous sub grapplers.

Wants more the "just stand up" style anti grappling fighters try today as well plays right into the hands of someone like Nog who got a lot of his sub wins countering escape atempts(Sylvia, Semmy, Crocop, etc). To try that against a really high level sub guy is vastly more risky and I think its spread in the modern sport because we have so few of those kinds of fighters who can punish it.

 

[pankrat]

Fedor was only ever takendown by stronger guys largelly. At LHW he would of been as strong roughly. Could Cormier get him down no doubt but to keep the Judo Sambo elite down? No way and Cormier striking is vastly inferior.

Fedor was taken down by LHW Arona, suplexed by another LHW in Rampage, and MW Lindland did it too if not for the rope grab. Furthermore, yeah got taken down by novice grapplers Hunt or Choi because of size/strenght, as well as Antonio Silva or Coleman.

Fedor had great judo base and set ups for his trips, but also lacked depth in wrestling and was vulnerable there specially to leg takedowns, apart from being undersized at HW.
Cormier and Jones definitely have a good chance, although Fedor can beat anybody.

 

[Gandulf]

no particular order

Stipe
DC
Werdum
Barnett
Overeem
Fedor
Nog
Cain
JDS
Ngannou

 

[pankrat]

"K-1 Werdum" got boxed up by Nog in ther 1st fight and was losing the second fight standing even against a declined Nog, try again.

Werdum in Pride was actually a pretty good defencive striker training with Crocop even if he didnt have the same threat with knees he devolped at Chute Boxe.
.

If between Werdum pre and post 2007 with Chute Boxe you can only notice the occasional knee strike in regards to his skills and composure standing up you either dont know what you are watching or you are being dishonest about it.

"K-1 Werdum" was losing the second fight standing even against a declined Nog, try again.

Even the latter Werdum though as I said was losing to a zombie Nog standing in the 2nd fight..

Let's keep it real, please
Werdum landed 20 significant strikes form distance to only 6 by Nog. They were even in the clinch.
Werdum was moving around the cage as he could not do in a square ring though, but that's another story.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Fedor was taken down by LHW Arona, suplexed by another LHW in Rampage, and MW Lindland did it too if not for the rope grab. Furthermore, yeah got taken down by novice grapplers Hunt or Choi because of size/strenght, as well as Antonio Silva or Coleman.

Fedor had great judo base and set ups for his trips, but also lacked depth in wrestling and was vulnerable there specially to leg takedowns, apart from being undersized at HW.
Cormier and Jones definitely have a good chance, although Fedor can beat anybody.

Choi did actually come from a sumo background but really I think a big issue his who you approach a match, Hendo for example was clearly a very good wrestler yet he was often taken down in MMA when he went after people aggressively.

You look at say Fedor/Coleman 2 or Fedor/Monson and I think it does show you could fight a slower paced match against a wrestler picking them apart if he wanted to. A lot of the other fights I think really opening himself up to the takedown was a calculated risk against opponents he had out gunned on the ground in an enviroment were LnP decisions were much harder to get.

I would argue as well the fight enviroment I think plays a big factor, defending single leg takedowns is much harder in a ring than it is in a cage were you can lean on the cage wall yet he did shut Colemans down pretty well in that rematch.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Let us not forget what Struve did to Nog and what Nelson did along with Cain 2/3 of these guys got destroyed by Werdum

Just absolutely ridiculous to bring up the Struve and Nelson fights. Struve was literally his last fight. Look how many fights Nog had at that point and the amount of injuries, surgeries and damage he had taken by that point.

Nobody would take anyone serious if they said something like "Rashad Evans was never that good because look what Dan Kelly did to him!" That's literally the equivalent to what you said. Actually what you said is even worse because Nog had 100x more mileage than Rashad at that point.

Guys like Nog and Rashad can't be world champs forever. At some point they slow down and retire.

 

[Deleted member 504083]

Stipe and Werdum are incredibly overrated with all their big name wins being out of prime or washed.

Ngannou is by far the most overrated HW all time to be on some GOAT lists though.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

If between Werdum pre and post 2007 with Chute Boxe you can only notice the occasional knee strike in regards to his skills and composure standing up you either dont know what you are watching or you are being dishonest about it.

As I said I think Werdum in Pride by that stage was a pretty good defensive striker, he wasnt some greenhorn BJJ guy that is often claimed, he'd been in MMA for 4 years and had been working with Mirko's team for over a year.

He definitely didn't have the threat to his striking of latter years but you could argue that was balanced somewhat by the younger Werdum being a lot more mobile with decent takedowns which I think helped quite alot defencively as well as opponents had to fear them a lot more.

Let's keep it real, please
Werdum landed 20 significant strikes form distance to only 6 by Nog. They were even in the clinch.
Werdum was moving around the cage as he could not do in a square ring though, but that's another story.

You look at the way the fight was going and Werdum did definately seem to be the less comfortable standing to me and was of course the one who went for the takedown.

I wouldnt hold that up as a level of dominance similar to the first fight of course but look at the post I replied to, basically claiming that Werdum had clearly beaten Nog standing because he subbed him on the ground, pretty standard Wiki wisdom.

The idea prime Nog was just some non technical punching bag standing is really just nonsense, in reality he only had two fights in Pride were he was clearly out struck by Fedor and Crocop. This is UFC spiel they came up with to sell a declining Nog as still in his prime.

 

[pankrat]

You look at say Fedor/Coleman 2 or Fedor/Monson and I think it does show you could fight a slower paced match against a wrestler picking them apart if he wanted to. A lot of the other fights I think really opening himself up to the takedown was a calculated risk against opponents he had out gunned on the ground in an enviroment were LnP decisions were much harder to get.
.

I dont think Monson and Coleman compare to Jones/Cormier as far as threatening with strikes and takedowns. The first Coleman fight definitely isnt a good sign for Fedor, who was already in his prime.

I would argue as well the fight enviroment I think plays a big factor, defending single leg takedowns is much harder in a ring than it is in a cage were you can lean on the cage wall yet he did shut Colemans down pretty well in that rematch.

I agree this is a major factor

 

[tomjones]

I don't care what the haters say, Nog was a great fighter. Sure he finished his career badly but he was in so much wars and they took their toll on him.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I dont think Monson and Coleman compare to Jones/Cormier as far as threatening with strikes and takedowns. The first Coleman fight definitely isnt a good sign for Fedor, who was already in his prime.

I would say what ever his other weaknesses Coleman was one of the best offensive wrestlers in MMA history and someone who had better leg takedowns than either Jones or Cormier who were always a bit more bias to the clinch, even when they went for the leg it was often in a clinch like situation.

My feeling is against Cormier espeically you probably would see Fedor looking to pick away at him from range, work his legs and body with kicks, throw punch's from long range in 1-2's and maybe try and catch him with takedowns off balance.

 

[pankrat]

As I said I think Werdum in Pride by that stage was a pretty good defensive striker, he wasnt some greenhorn BJJ guy that is often claimed, he'd been in MMA for 4 years and had been working with Mirko's team for over a year.

He definitely didn't have the threat to his striking of latter years but you could argue that was balanced somewhat by the younger Werdum being a lot more mobile with decent takedowns which I think helped quite alot defencively as well as opponents had to fear them a lot more.



You look at the way the fight was going and Werdum did definately seem to be the less comfortable standing to me and was of course the one who went for the takedown.

I wouldnt hold that up as a level of dominance similar to the first fight of course but look at the post I replied to, basically claiming that Werdum had clearly beaten Nog standing because he subbed him on the ground, pretty standard Wiki wisdom.

The idea prime Nog was just some non technical punching bag standing is really just nonsense, in reality he only had two fights in Pride were he was clearly out struck by Fedor and Crocop. This is UFC spiel they came up with to sell a declining Nog as still in his prime.

ftr the strikes diferential is actually higher for Werdum in the 2nd fight than it is to Nog in the first.
Seems evident that Nogueira is more confortable exchanging punches in close quarters but it doesnt necesarily means he is getting he better of the standup. The cage favouyrs Werdum to circle out imo.

Not sure what was the point of the dicussion to be fair, I didnt read since the beggining. I do think Nog and Werdum are comparable skillwise, although Nog has the slighly superior legacy imo.
Fedor didnt play as smart with Werdum as he did with Nog, but I do think IQ was a big asset for Fabrizio through his career.

 

[BB in Crazy!!!!]

If Goobertaylor was still here, he would give us a thesis on why Timmy is No. 1

 

[pankrat]

I would say what ever his other weaknesses Coleman was one of the best offensive wrestlers in MMA history and someone who had better leg takedowns than either Jones or Cormier who were always a bit more bias to the clinch, even when they went for the leg it was often in a clinch like situation.

My feeling is against Cormier espeically you probably would see Fedor looking to pick away at him from range, work his legs and body with kicks, throw punch's from long range in 1-2's and maybe try and catch him with takedowns off balance.

Actually, Coleman doesnt ground Fedor with a leg takedown but from the waist. Randleman suplexed him. Allowing Lindland to even get into that hold and get Fedor off his feet is not a good sign vs Cormier/Jones neither, if you want to ignore Arona earlier in Fedor's career.

Im refering to the smaller opponents here, not to his struggles wrestling with the bigger Hunt, Silva or Choi

 

[TheNewOldGuy]

1 by a long margin: Fedor - No other HW has went on a 10 year unbeaten streak (The cut loss doesn't count and you know it.). No other HW has won nearly the awards Fedor has. No other HW has had a 21 year career and went 40-6-1(Should be 40-5-2) Fought the best opposition he could find in Pride and if you think 2000's UFC HW's were better than Pride HW's you're smoking rocks.

You could have send Fujita to the UFC in the early 2000's and he would've been champ...just saying.

2-10: Everyone else not named Fedor.

 

[Paul E Gensinger]

Top Ten HW Fighters (five of whom beat the crap out of Fedor):

1.) Bigfoot Silva
2.) Dan Henderson
3.) Matt Mitreone
4.) Ryan Bader
5.) Fabricio Werdum
6.) Cain
7.) Stipe
8.) DC
9.) Brock
10.) JDS

 

[Deleted member 110072]

ftr the strikes diferential is actually higher for Werdum in the 2nd fight than it is to Nog in the first.
Seems evident that Nogueira is more confortable exchanging punches in close quarters but it doesnt necesarily means he is getting he better of the standup. The cage favouyrs Werdum to circle out imo.

Not sure what was the point of the dicussion to be fair, I didnt read since the beggining. I do think Nog and Werdum are comparable skillwise, although Nog has the slighly superior legacy imo.
Fedor didnt play as smart with Werdum as he did with Nog, but I do think IQ was a big asset for Fabrizio through his career.

By the time of the second fight really I think Nog is pretty much forced to be more of a power puncher chasing people down because he lacks the speed to fight a more technical fight anymore.

I do think the first Nog fight and the Werdum fight you can see the difference in latter Fedor not fighting as smart, both times he gets a knockdown but against Nog he realises his opponent is live and doesnt go crazy with the GnP. Even those big birst of GnP later in the fight they thrown when he has more space on the ground and Nog is looking for sweeps from butterfly guard.

I think the key moment of the first fight is actually when Nog finally gets the sweep and then Fedor sweeps him right back, thats what he'd been looking for most of the match but then loses it with that smart bit of misdirection looking to sweep the other direction first which breaks Nogs grip on the other side.

The 2nd and 3rd fight Nog switches to more of a high guard like Werdum throws up but Fedor doesnt go crazy with the GnP because he knows its more dangerous with the risk of triangles and armbars. The downside of that for Nog though is that he can't be as proactive looking for sweeps as he was in the first match, if Fedor doesnt give him an opening for a sub he can't do as much.