Top 10 Heavyweights ever

jko1355 said:
I agree, Ngannou isn't in the top 10 even, but he literally could randomly KO prime Fedor, Big Nog, stipe, cain and I wouldn't be surprised... I also wouldn't be surprised if he went 1-3 against all of those fighters if he managed the 1 KO. Talking Prime only.
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Agree. He’s probably the most insane power puncher I’ve ever seen in MMA. I think skill would win out, but who knows lol.
 
spinup said:
Not too bad list. Cain too high imo, and DC too low.

Ngannou's current run is quite underrated: he steamrolled 3 UFC champions, Blaydes and Rozenstruik then beat Gane with a nasty knee injury.
Possibly the best 6 consecutive wins, tied with Stipe first championship run (Arlovski, Hunt, JDS, Werdum, Overeem, Ngannou).
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Yea agree on FN. I get why people prefer guys who win with more skill, guts, versatility, whatever, but Francis gets the job done against good opposition and often does so with violent dominance.
 
BFoe said:
Honestly man, it’s tough. :) I was saying earlier ITT that I sometimes feel I have JDS too low because he’s got such a sick resume—and I have him pretty high at #5.

One of the key differences between us that I saw when you listed Nog’s resume is that you seemed to look at common opponents, whereas I don’t look at that really. Example: you mentioned that JDS beat Nelson, whereas Nog got KOed by Nelson. Nelson wasn’t in his greatest form in 2014, but Nog was one fight from retirement. I mean, he won the PRIDE belt in late 2001, he was wayyy past it by 2014. Even by 2010 when Cain beat him, he was declined. The Cain fight was Nog’s 41st fight. Cain only has 17 total, and that was enough to wreck Cain’s body. And does a loss like that negate a whole body of work?

I also think that whatever method one uses should work across all weight classes and divisions. One time, someone asked why I have Joanna above Namajunas. After all, Rose beat her twice. Plus, Rose beat Weili twice, and Weili beat Joanna twice.
Case closed?
Well, Joanna whooped the dog snot out of Esparza, and Esparza beat Rose twice. Joanna also beat Karolina, and Rose lost to Karolina. Joanna beat Andrade, but Rose lost to Andrade, but Rose also beat Andrade…
Ranking that way is a mess. My answer is that Joanna ranked higher because her overall resume and accomplishments are better than Rose’s. And I say that as a big Rose fan.

The question to me here would be, is JDS’s overall body of work better than Nogueira’s? That’s tough to answer, but I don’t quite think so.
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I rank by body of work, common opponents and the head to head record. Hence why I put Cro Cop over Barnett despite Barnett also having a great resume. I put Cain over JDS by basis of the head to head record and that JDS never fought K1 Werdum who had improved dramatically in the years after his loss. Minus the decision loss to Ubereem, Werdum went 9 and 1 and didnt lose from 09 to 15 except to Ubereem by decision.

Well I rank logically Cro Cop over Barnett due to Cro Cop going 3 and 0. Body of work has to matter and also head to head and common opponents. Do you really think Prime Nog could beat JDS? Only Cain ever managed to take JDS down and Prime JDS is a superior striker with KO power in both hands and also powerful kicks a good sprawl and he is jacked and a BJJ black belt.

Also the nature of loss matters

Prime Nog decisioned an inexperienced Werdum who was a new Black Belt.

Older more seasoned Nog who is only 1 year older than Werdum losses to Werdum on the ground in MMA in what was essentially a grappling match. Nog being submitted and not losing by flash KO fluke haymaker punch or by cut says a lot about how competent and more elite Werdums game became in his prime. They are 1 and 1 but the win they each got is not the same and common opponents favor Werdum and prime Werdum optically was a more well rounded fighter and developed an effective takedown wrestling game Nog never had and an effective kicking and muay thai game Nog also never had.

By basis for having JDS over Nog is common opponents and caliber of opponents. I am a fan of many old school guys but Nog did can crush a lot and did beat many LHWs. I cant include those types as the same.

Joanna has a superior career to Rose but Rose beat her handily 2x so it is hard to say because common opponents favors Joanna but head to head favors Rose. I dont know on that one.

I tend to favor a head to head if it is more than 2x wins or is 2x dominant ones

Barnetts resume beats Cro Cops except for the fact Barnett got owned by Cro Cop 3 different times. Thus logically I cant have Barnett above Cro Cop. Also Barnetts common opponents Cro Cop had are largelly wins for Barnett were as Cro Cop lost to several of those guys Barnett beat with no issue. Yet reality is Barbett had 3 chances to beat Cro Cop and never did it.
 
BFoe said:
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I think it’s a good list, man. Personally I don’t think Ngannou belongs, and Barnett is too high. But good list overall.
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I can do without Francis being there, Barnett may be too high, perhaps Cro Cop needs in.
 
Koro_11 said:
You got Barnett there but not the guy that beat him 3 times heads up?
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I'm not married to the list, I didn't analyze it in depth. I can do without Overeem in there or Francis, slide Cro Cop in and then Barnett at #10. The top 7 I am pretty clear on, but 8-10 can be so many guys.
 
Brazilian007 said:
The wins should matter. Only on Sherdog are old fans who are nostalgic are putting slow 1 dimesional Big Nog as a top 5 HW. I swear to God BJ Penn is less overrated than Nog on here. Everytime a Nog fan says he had good boxing and takedowns I die of laughter. He did not. Nog was very hittable and blocked punches with his face... He also due to the childhood injury didnt have good knees or back or ability to shoot. Nog was essentially slow and immobile who had to rely on pulling guard or getting a takedown from the clinch.

Fedor belongs for sure and was well rounded but not Nog. I swear this place is delusional.

Cro Cop was getting wrecked by Reem before the nut shots and even then Reems HW resume is superior to Cro Cops



And this is exactly why Werdum needs to be top 3 with only Fedor whom he beat and Stipe higher. Fedor vs Werdum rematch should of happened and Werdum vs Stipe II and Werdum vs Cormier also would of been good. We got robbed not seeing Werdum defend the belt and not seeing him vs Cormier who I am positive he would of wrecked or him vs Fedor II to see if Fedor really just got caught.

Cormier is the most overrated HW who has his HW record beating past prime Mir and Barnett but still i cant discount these wins fully and he did manage to beat TRT Prime Big Foot. But he got destroyed by old Stipe 2x and only managed a fluke win after he eyepoked Stipe. He then was sonned by Jones 2x. And retired before he had to face real elite HWs like Ngannou and Blaydes. Yeah he beat Lewis who is ranked but lets be real at where Lewis ranks. The most annoying thing about Cormier is he retired so soon before that he gave no argument to if he would of won or lost vs Werdum, Ubereem, Etc. If Stipe and Jones gets wrecked then people will just do MMA math and assume Cormier could not hang with modern HWs but it wont fully answer how he would of done vs all the guys he avoided fighting. That is why I hope Cormier comes back at HW for an interim title shot vs Gane and ideally losses so his overrated legacy can be shushed.
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I am not gonna get into Nog's skill set too much, but he had a phenomenal skill set and his boxing was very good. You brought up the point his defense isn't great, well, name one HW that did have great defense. You can't, everyone gets hit. Nog's defense wasn't any worse than Cain, JDS, Stipe, Barnett, etc etc. And Nog's defense was far better than Mirs.

Here is the problem with putting Mir over Nog. Unless you are completely bias against Nog, he is a top 2-4 HW. He can't be higher than #2 and you can't place him lower than #4, the only guys you can please above him are Fedor, Stipe, and Werdum. LIke I said, there is not one reasonable argument to not have Nog lower than #4. Considering this, there is no way in hell Frank Mir is a top 5 all time HW. Even if you are stubborn and place Cain or JDS over Big Nog, he is still #5 all time. Once again, there is no way Frank Mir is a top 5 all time HW. So there goes any argument of having Mir over Nog. His wins alone wont do it.

Nog just has so much more over Mir. Titles, wins, win streak, top 5 and top 10 wins, being a top 5 HW much longer. There is not one reasonable argument to have Mir over Nog all time.
 
Brazilian007 said:
I rank by body of work, common opponents and the head to head record. Hence why I put Cro Cop over Barnett despite Barnett also having a great resume. I put Cain over JDS by basis of the head to head record and that JDS never fought K1 Werdum who had improved dramatically in the years after his loss. Minus the decision loss to Ubereem, Werdum went 9 and 1 and didnt lose from 09 to 15 except to Ubereem by decision.

Well I rank logically Cro Cop over Barnett due to Cro Cop going 3 and 0. Body of work has to matter and also head to head and common opponents. Do you really think Prime Nog could beat JDS? Only Cain ever managed to take JDS down and Prime JDS is a superior striker with KO power in both hands and also powerful kicks a good sprawl and he is jacked and a BJJ black belt.

Also the nature of loss matters

Prime Nog decisioned an inexperienced Werdum who was a new Black Belt.

Older more seasoned Nog who is only 1 year older than Werdum losses to Werdum on the ground in MMA in what was essentially a grappling match. Nog being submitted and not losing by flash KO fluke haymaker punch or by cut says a lot about how competent and more elite Werdums game became in his prime. They are 1 and 1 but the win they each got is not the same and common opponents favor Werdum and prime Werdum optically was a more well rounded fighter and developed an effective takedown wrestling game Nog never had and an effective kicking and muay thai game Nog also never had.

By basis for having JDS over Nog is common opponents and caliber of opponents. I am a fan of many old school guys but Nog did can crush a lot and did beat many LHWs. I cant include those types as the same.

Joanna has a superior career to Rose but Rose beat her handily 2x so it is hard to say because common opponents favors Joanna but head to head favors Rose. I dont know on that one.

I tend to favor a head to head if it is more than 2x wins or is 2x dominant ones

Barnetts resume beats Cro Cops except for the fact Barnett got owned by Cro Cop 3 different times. Thus logically I cant have Barnett above Cro Cop. Also Barnetts common opponents Cro Cop had are largelly wins for Barnett were as Cro Cop lost to several of those guys Barnett beat with no issue. Yet reality is Barbett had 3 chances to beat Cro Cop and never did it.
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Nog retired two fights after the werdum rematch. He was clearly past it

Both guys never fought each other at their peaks

So that's 2015 werdum vs 2004-2003 Nog?

I take werdum over nog all time
 
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BFoe said:
One of my Unpopular MMA Opinions is: however significant Overeem’s Strikeforce and DREAM titles are, Fedor’s WAMMA title should be viewed as at least equivalent.

Fedor had, in one continuous unbeaten streak:
  • Title win over Nog (PRIDE)
  • Defense over Nog (PRIDE)
  • Defense over Mirko (PRIDE)
  • Defense over Hunt (PRIDE)
  • Title win over Sylvia (WAMMA)
  • Defense over Arlovski (WAMMA)
  • Defense over Rogers (WAMMA)
Stipe had (all UFC, obviously)
  • Title win over Werdum
  • Defense over Overeem
  • Defense over JDS
  • Defense over Ngannou
*defeated by DC
  • Title win over DC
  • Defense against DC
The WAMMA belt is not as prestigious as the PRIDE or UFC belts obviously, but I think Fedor won & defended against better competition overall (relative to where the opponents were in their careers), he has more overall title fight wins and more overall defenses, in one continuous unbeaten streak.
Fedor > Stipe
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On top of that, Fedor also had another 11 non title fight wins inside of his title reign and some of those were tournament fights. He also had 12 wins before he won the title.

He also won 3 major Tournaments and was a finalist in another.
 
Career:
1. Fedor
2. Stipe
3. Big Nog
4. Werdum
5. JDS
6. Cormier
7. Cain
8. Ngannou
9. Reem
10. CroCop

Peak:
1. Ngannou
2. Cain
3. Fedor
4. Stipe
5. Reem
6. DC
7. Gane
8. Werdum
9. Lesnar
10. JDS
 
Ngannou is already on the verge of having a case for being ahead of Stipe tbh. Thats how hollow and ridiculous all the "greatest HW ever" hype was.

Regardless, at the end of the day, you're probably not going to see some chubby 5'10 dude go unbeaten for a decade and 30+ fights again anytime soon.
 
BFoe said:
What is this case for Ngannou over Stipe that you speak of?
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I said "on the verge" as in maybe a win or two away. He knocked Stipes ass out brutally in the rematch vs losing a decision the first time. Both guys fought Reem, JDS and AA fairly close to each other and both stopped them all in the first round. Stipe did go 2-1 vs old DC (although the loss was the most definitive) and beat Werdum, while Ngannou beat Gane, Blaydes twice and Rozenstruik, maybe could throw Cain in there for whatever it was worth in 2019.

Its close. Stipe is overrated.
 
BFoe said:
It gets really rough around #s 8-10. But something like

  1. Fedor
  2. Stipe
  3. Nog
  4. Werdum
  5. JDS
  6. Cain
  7. Overeem
  8. Mirko
  9. Arlovski?
  10. Couture? Barnett? Cormier?
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Lol, Ngannou beat 5 fighters from your top10 list, yet he doesn’t deserve a spot. You’re biased af.

And how Mirko can be top10 and in front of DC? Ridiculous. Even Gane has arguably a better resume than CroCop
 
1. Fedor
2. Cain.
3. Big Nog
4. JDS
5. Miocic
6. Couture
7. Ngannou
8. Lesnar
9. Arlovski
10. Rodriguez
 
ExitLUPin said:
Fedor
Minotauro
Stipe
Werdum
Mirko
Barnett
Cain
JDS
Francis
Reem
DC
Sergei
Randy

More than 10 but I think those have been the true "greats" so far

then after you have the likes of Sylvia, Ricco, Hunt, Murr, Arlovski, Herring, Rizzo, Bigfoot, Semmy, Minakov, Igor, Gane, Blaydes, Coleman, Randleman, Fujita, Bork, Carwin, Aleks, Goodridge, Lewis, Gonzaga, Rothwell, Roy, Kongo, Volkov, Yvel etc
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Probably the best list
 
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