Tony vs Khabib will determine the best LW ever, BUT...

[Jackonfire]

I don't hold much stock in title defenses due to some fighters getting titles shots WAY before others and thus ABLE to have so many defences. Say Tony beat Khabib I see him retiring within the next 3 fights. Usman for example pretty much cleared out his division before becoming Champ so can retire knows he's the best without many defences.

Yeah, see, thats the thing. Only champs can clear out a division. I see this argument a lot with Conor fans who say he "cleared" out the FW division so there was no need to defend. Its kind of ridiculous.

 

[Jpenwell14]

Ok even in that way Khabib is still more impressive then Tony. Khabib has never been cut, never been knockdown and only lost 1 round in his 12 UFC bouts. We are talking about the most dominant fighter in UFC or MMA history here.
Khabib dominance > GSP, AS & JJ
People talking about AS leatherface but he got cut or made too bleed more then Khabib. JJ walked out of the octagon on a wheelchair by Alex and Santos. GSP with all the cuts to his face and that controversial decision to Hendricks.
So yes how Khabib wins is way more impressive for me than how Tony wins.

Fuck no. Tony is down right scary. You have to kill that man to stop the boogeyman from coming for you. A loss on his record isn't going to keep him from making your life hell. And what's more impressive is 12 wins later I'm still wondering if anyone really has it in them to erase tony from the conversation.

On the flipside most people are aware khabib can be out struck, and everyone is just trying to neutralize his grappling strength so that they can beat him. A very impressive fighter and probably next level frustrating to try to duplicate his physical strength. All his brawl was, was some diva ego shit. Even so I'm not afraid khabib will murder me in my sleep. Tony is the type of guy that definitely could

 

[Bearknuckle]

Lol, shouldnt someone have to be a champ, and defend and dominate for a while to be in the goat conversation? Like anderson, gsp and jones.

U cant just beat a great and consume all his accomplishments. Thats why weidman isnt considered a goat.

 

[Oogie Sharp]

Let either of them do this...

Until then, it's ...

 

[Deadwing88]

Pettis is always dangerous. He got unlocky against Poirier injuring his rib. Before Tony he sub'd Chiesa and after Tony he flatlined Wonderboy.

Cowboy was ranked 4th coming off a 3 match run beating Perry and Ragin Al (who Khabib beat for the belt) and Tony destroyed him.

An in form Kevin Lee is tough for anyone he was on a 5 fight streak when he lost to Tony, and after a skid now seems to have got back to looking great again.

You can pick apart Khabibs wins pretty easily if you wanted.

• Michael Johnson - (3-7) in his last 10 dropped a weightclass, basically a can
• Barboza - loses to any pressure grappler, tailor made for Khabib, (1-4) since the Khabib fight
• Ragin' Al - #11 fought Khabib for the vacant belt and was only prepared for 3 rounds but put in 5. His only win in the previous 3 years was a decision over Diego. (1-3 since the Khabib fight)
• McGregor - had been out of the game for several years getting rusty and spent most of that time focused on boxing, Khabib was a heavy favourite based on his grappling.
• Poirier - great win, he was on a good run of victories but looked like a deer in the headlight the whole time and didn't have the skills to compete with Khabib, a truly great win.

Johnson is a can..? He knocked out Poirier, literally a few months before he fought Khabib.

 

[cmw43]

Johnson is a can..? He knocked out Poirier, literally a few months before he fought Khabib.

Poirier just got caught early, no way it happens again if they had a rematch.

Since then he's only had two wins one of which was over Artem and he's racked up 5 losses

 

[Kono dio da!]

Tony hasn't fought Conrad, Poirier or Gaethje.
He hasn't faced a real top contender since RDA. Lee, cowboy and pettis are good wins but not top contenders. And yes I know Cowboy is ranked 5th but let's be honest here.

Apart from Poirier, has anyone ever called him out? Noone wants to fight him. Everyone avoided him and khabib until the latter became champ. Also when you really think about, because all the lightweights are so reluctant to fight, Noone has an extremely impressive resume. You're not gonna find someone with a resume like Yoel for instance or Aldo. It's hard to get those top tier wins if Noone wants to fight you. I mean cowboy in 2015 claimed he didn't know who Tony was, Eddie Alvarez flat out ducked him, nate is not elite but wanted no parts of him, Conor refuses to acknowledge him and so forth and so forth. So it's unfair to judge Tony like that. The only reason why khabib has Poirier on Conor on his record is because he's the champ and the latter had no choice but to fight him. Otherwise, had it not been for that he'd be stuck in the same position as Tony.

 

[Joker Jiujitsu]

There's always a new lightweight GOAT. During BJ's day, you had arguments for Gomi, Aoki, and a few others. Then it was Edgar, Benson, or Pettis, with someone like Alvarez thrown in. Now it's Khabib, Ferguson, and Conor.

There is never a consensus 100% best LW. The division is too stacked. People want to argue Khabib because of his dominance, yet BJ looked just as dominant against his opponents and actually finished almost all of them, including being the first guy to stop Diego Sanchez who was on a tear. BJ stuffed every one of his takedowns and made him look like an amateur. He crushed Sean Sherk, who was supposed to be the next big thing at LW. BJ submitting Matt Hughes was more impressive than Masvidal KOing Darren Till or Ben Askren.

Oh well. Nobody respects BJ anymore, and it's his own fault. Should've retired after the Diaz fight...

 

[Ufcmaster]

Let either of them do this...

Until then, it's ...

Apart from Poirier, has anyone ever called him out? Noone wants to fight him. Everyone avoided him and khabib until the latter became champ. Also when you really think about, because all the lightweights are so reluctant to fight, Noone has an extremely impressive resume. You're not gonna find someone with a resume like Yoel for instance or Aldo. It's hard to get those top tier wins if Noone wants to fight you. I mean cowboy in 2015 claimed he didn't know who Tony was, Eddie Alvarez flat out ducked him, nate is not elite but wanted no parts of him, Conor refuses to acknowledge him and so forth and so forth. So it's unfair to judge Tony like that. The only reason why khabib has Poirier on Conor on his record is because he's the champ and the latter had no choice but to fight him. Otherwise, had it not been for that he'd be stuck in the same position as Tony.

Maybe. But I still blame him for not taking that Max fight. He could have been the one to end Max's 13 winstreak instead of Dustin. He could have fought in Abu Dhabi with ppv points. Instead he takes on old cowboy in 3 rounder lol
Yeah I know he had demons to battle. That's another thing that irritates me. People keep saying a guy that has had and maybe still has mental problems/breakdowns is mentally tougher than Khabib. They also claim Tony is tough because he came back from his knee injury but won't even mention Khabib coming back from hard surgeries that kept him away for 2 years. That's what I call a real comeback story. Hollyweird should make a movie about Khabib
Make it happen WME!

 

[Pakman]

Oh ok. So if i dont think bj penn is the “goat” i get my info from fight finder and i am a “dolt”. Thanks for your input.



I think bj penn is a legend no doubt just no where near “goat” status.

No, but there is a reason why he was in the talks for best LW of all time and those of us who actually watched it in real time know why.

He won the belt and defended multiple times by decimating the opposition. For a long period there was no other LW with a real claim aside from Gomi (who has still ended the year as #1 LW in the world more times than anyone else) and BJ finished him too.

Benson's top wins are better imo than BJs but those were close fights that went to decision.

Again, there was a reason why many felt that way, to suggest he wasn't in the talks when at one point, he was the best LW fighter the sport had seen, is just nonsense.

 

[mkess101]

No, but there is a reason why he was in the talks for best LW of all time and those of us who actually watched it in real time know why.

He won the belt and defended multiple times by decimating the opposition. For a long period there was no other LW with a real claim aside from Gomi (who has still ended the year as #1 LW in the world more times than anyone else) and BJ finished him too.

Benson's top wins are better imo than BJs but those were close fights that went to decision.

Again, there was a reason why many felt that way, to suggest he wasn't in the talks when at one point, he was the best LW fighter the sport had seen, is just nonsense.

BJ has made himself the most polarizing figure in all of MMA by a MILE when it comes to GOAT talks. Nobody can deny how great he was at his peak. BUT...there are other factors at play. He took a lot of fights (some his own doing, some just by necessity due to the lack of a LW division in the UFC) outside his weight class. He's on an unprecedented losing streak. How does someone try to put all of this into some sort of comparative context and stack it up against guys who have A) Always fought at LW for the most part and B) Not exited their prime, thus have not lost fights for nearly a decade (or ever, in Khabib's case).

If someone tries to say they definitively have that answer, imo they can fuck off. I get the BJ nostalgia, and quite frankly at his best the admiration is warranted. But latching on to that and assuming it automatically trumps what current LW's are doing (and that it erases any and all of the detracting factors for BJ) is asinine.

Personally, there was a time when I would say that BJ was clearly the LW GOAT. But that time has passed. Do I still think he's in the coversation? Sure. An all time great? Absolutely. But the best ever LW? Not anymore.

Winning and defending the belt matters as much as the person assessing it believes it matters. ESPECIALLY as time has moved on and title fights and the OPPORTUNITY to win and defend the belt has become less about merit and more about financial gains for the organization. To ignore that fact is absurd.

 

[Ghostoftheville]

Its not mind blowing to us who were around at the time to witness it.

Most of you dolts get your information from fight finder.

It might have something to do with his run at lightweight also being relatively short. Let's stop it at the 2nd Edgar fight; that's 23 fights total and 15 of those are at lightweight. So the lightweight GOAT is 11-3-1 with 3 title defenses in his division and wins over Gomi, Uno, Din Thomas, Sherk, and Jens Pulver as the biggest names on his resume. He does have wins over the biggest names, but that isn't exactly dominance.

 

[Slatersan]

No, but there is a reason why he was in the talks for best LW of all time and those of us who actually watched it in real time know why.

He won the belt and defended multiple times by decimating the opposition. For a long period there was no other LW with a real claim aside from Gomi (who has still ended the year as #1 LW in the world more times than anyone else) and BJ finished him too.

Benson's top wins are better imo than BJs but those were close fights that went to decision.

Again, there was a reason why many felt that way, to suggest he wasn't in the talks when at one point, he was the best LW fighter the sport had seen, is just nonsense.

I agree with you at the time he was dominating there would be reasoning for it just not looking back from today.
I share the same sentiment you have for bj towards Fedor so i understand your point of view.

 

[mkess101]

Maybe. But I still blame him for not taking that Max fight. He could have been the one to end Max's 13 winstreak instead of Dustin. He could have fought in Abu Dhabi with ppv points. Instead he takes on old cowboy in 3 rounder lol
Yeah I know he had demons to battle. That's another thing that irritates me. People keep saying a guy that has had and maybe still has mental problems/breakdowns is mentally tougher than Khabib. They also claim Tony is tough because he came back from his knee injury but won't even mention Khabib coming back from hard surgeries that kept him away for 2 years. That's what I call a real comeback story. Hollyweird should make a movie about Khabib
Make it happen WME!

So Tony had 11 wins in a row and a CLEAR claim to the next fight with Khabib. The UFC decided to pull some bullshit and make an interim belt even though they knew EXACTLY when Khabib would be back. It wasn't an injury, he was only out until Sept. Yet they just HAD to make yet another fake belt (after stripping Tony of his for no reason) so they could pull in a few more ppv buys. Okay, that's fine. But blaming Tony for saying "Fuck you" to ANOTHER interim title fight is stupid.

You're rationale is "Tony could have ended Max's streak". Well, that streak was at FW, not LW first of all. "He could have fought in Abu Dhabi with PPV points. Instead he takes on Cowboy in a 3 rounder LOL." Well, you aren't really thinking about this very clearly it seems.

He needed to beat Max, and then he'd have fought Khabib for the belt. In a meritocracy he just would have fought Khabib in Sept with no interim title fight needed. But whatever. But even though he didn't fight Max in that interim fight, he still only needed to win ONE fight to get his title shot. Here, let me break it down this way:

Tony fights Max for the interim belt, wins, then fights Khabib in Abu Dhabi and gets ppv points for an event that happened in the afternoon in the biggest ppv market (the US). That's scenario #1.

Tony fights Cowboy, wins, then fights Khabib in NY and gets ppv points for a MUCH bigger card that will sell a shit ton more ppv's than the one in Abu Dhabi ever could have.

In other words, Tony made the absolute correct choice and your analysis of things makes no sense.

 

[Pakman]

BJ has made himself the most polarizing figure in all of MMA by a MILE when it comes to GOAT talks. Nobody can deny how great he was at his peak. BUT...there are other factors at play. He took a lot of fights (some his own doing, some just by necessity due to the lack of a LW division in the UFC) outside his weight class. He's on an unprecedented losing streak. How does someone try to put all of this into some sort of comparative context and stack it up against guys who have A) Always fought at LW for the most part and B) Not exited their prime, thus have not lost fights for nearly a decade (or ever, in Khabib's case).

If someone tries to say they definitively have that answer, imo they can fuck off. I get the BJ nostalgia, and quite frankly at his best the admiration is warranted. But latching on to that and assuming it automatically trumps what current LW's are doing (and that it erases any and all of the detracting factors for BJ) is asinine.

Personally, there was a time when I would say that BJ was clearly the LW GOAT. But that time has passed. Do I still think he's in the coversation? Sure. An all time great? Absolutely. But the best ever LW? Not anymore.

Winning and defending the belt matters as much as the person assessing it believes it matters. ESPECIALLY as time has moved on and title fights and the OPPORTUNITY to win and defend the belt has become less about merit and more about financial gains for the organization. To ignore that fact is absurd.

Yeah idk where you think I said BJ is the GOAT, was just explaining to the noob why people put him in the convo.

 

[Pakman]

I agree with you at the time he was dominating there would be reasoning for it just not looking back from today.
I share the same sentiment you have for bj towards Fedor so i understand your point of view.

Fedor is unequivocally the GOAT HW..its literally not even close.

 

[Pakman]

It might have something to do with his run at lightweight also being relatively short. Let's stop it at the 2nd Edgar fight; that's 23 fights total and 15 of those are at lightweight. So the lightweight GOAT is 11-3-1 with 3 title defenses in his division and wins over Gomi, Uno, Din Thomas, Sherk, and Jens Pulver as the biggest names on his resume. He does have wins over the biggest names, but that isn't exactly dominance.

Finishing all those men is kinda absurd at the time it was done

 

[mkess101]

Yeah idk where you think I said BJ is the GOAT, was just explaining to the noob why people put him in the convo.

Sorry, I replied to your post but it was a general rant. I agree, he's in the discussion but has been surpassed. That's my fault if it read like I was aiming that rant at you.

 

[Pakman]

Sorry, I replied to your post but it was a general rant. I agree, he's in the discussion but has been surpassed. That's my fault if it read like I was aiming that rant at you.

We good. Was at a Hooters n had 3 casuals at bar rambling on about Conor and Cowboy. It's legit like a Sherdog thread but in real life. Not sure anyone has ever watched a fight just promo cuts lol.

 

[Eli1015]

Greg Hardy would beat both of them, LW GOAT is a participation prize for manlets.

Isn't Manlets a height thing? And isn't Nate Diaz and cerrone former LWs that are over 6 feet?