To the Athlete burning out on SS/SL5x5

Lip said:
Anyway, I'm trying to see if you ever posted a log here cuz I want to see what your top numbers were.
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I couldn't help but notice you never said any more about this.

Oblivion is stronger than you, isn't he...
 
MatterOverMind said:
I couldn't help but notice you never said any more about this.

Oblivion is stronger than you, isn't he...
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Couldn't find it. If you have it I'd love to see it. Regardless, dude is a nobody compared to Bill Starr and he's just doubling down on his lack of reading comprehension because his foot is already lodged deep in his mouth.
 
Lip said:
Couldn't find it. If you have it I'd love to see it. Regardless, dude is a nobody compared to Bill Starr and he's just doubling down on his lack of reading comprehension because his foot is already lodged deep in his mouth.
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/oblivians-adaptations-part-ii.1982305/

@Oblivian is not wrong here. 5 x 5 of power cleans is not the most ideal way to gain power. An explosive movement such as that should be done in the 1-3 rep range for the work sets.
 
Thunderhead said:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/oblivians-adaptations-part-ii.1982305/

@Oblivian is not wrong here. 5 x 5 of power cleans is not the most ideal way to gain power. An explosive movement such as that should be done in the 1-3 rep range for the work sets.
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Wow, those "I been on Texas Method for about 4 months now" level lifts.

I agree that 5 reps is not what I'd program, as stated over and over itt. (same with front squats starr recommends 5s on light day until the weights get up their before moving to 3s, I'd start at 3s)

However, this program AS WRITTEN is one of the most time proven and popular programs for athletes EVER by one of the greatest coaches EVER. So I'm willing to bet, shit was kept to 5s for a really good reason by someone without that type of experience.

I think it's because there re no DLs in the program, so he programmed the PCs with a little more volume per week to strengthen the back more.
 
Lip said:
I agree that 5 reps is not what I'd program, as stated over and over itt. (same with front squats starr recommends 5s on light day until the weights get up their before moving to 3s, I'd start at 3s)

However, this program AS WRITTEN is one of the most time proven and popular programs for athletes EVER by one of the greatest coaches EVER. So I'm willing to bet, shit was kept to 5s for a really good reason by someone without that type of experience.

I think it's because there re no DLs in the program, so he programmed the PCs with a little more volume per week to strengthen the back more.
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Let's not make any attacks on a member's personal records in this subforum. That's a shitty thing to do. You need to get your OT mentality out of this place.
 
Thunderhead said:
Let's not make any attacks on a member's personal records in this subforum. That's a shitty thing to do. You need to get your OT mentality out of this place.
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Fair enough and I agree. I'm sorry for coming at you @Oblivian can we bet lifting buds?
 
Here is where I would disagree.

First of all single legged exercises and glute and ham exercises seem to have great benefit for most athletes. So stuff like lunges, split squats, single leg dls should be included in an athletes program. They work great for balance too. Jump squats also are suggested as great tool for athletes. For boxing my coaches suggest burning out the front, side and back shoulder and muscle up in these areas + core conditioning such as wood chops. Keep in mind these are people with olympic experience.

In soccer we were suggested a lot of lunges and body weight jump squats from ex professional soccer players and now coaches in professional clubs.

If you look at the stand up forum, you will find videos of Sinister coaching his guys in strenght and conditioning and they seem to not go for heavy squats and bench. He is also advocate on athletes developing cool moves which would give them confidence in their lives, that is something I would agree on. Sinister is a good boxing coach in Las Vegas.

My point is you do not just come over and suggest a variation of a 5x5 from a guy who has minimal experience with athletes claiming he is the best in the world. Has probably minimal experience employeed as a strength coach in a professional club or has worked in an olympic team.

Lastly you say football players. No disrespect to american football, but it looks like a low intensity chess game, where strenght will play a huge role. But change the game to Rugby for example and we have a much flowing game where stuff as constant running is needed and cardio vascular work is way more important than strength. Same goes for combat sports and other sports such as basketball and soccer.
 
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Ilk said:
Here is where I would disagree.

First of all single legged exercises and glute and ham exercises seem to have great benefit for most athletes. So stuff like lunges, split squats, single leg dls should be included in an athletes program. They work great for balance too. Jump squats also are suggested as great tool for athletes. For boxing my coaches suggest burning out the front, side and back shoulder and muscle up in these areas + core conditioning such as wood chops. Keep in mind these are people with olympic experience.

In soccer we were suggested a lot of lunges and body weight jump squats from ex professional soccer players and now coaches in professional clubs.

If you look at the stand up forum, you will find videos of Sinister coaching his guys in strenght and conditioning and they seem to not go for heavy squats and bench. He is also advocate on athletes developing cool moves which would give them confidence in their lives, that is something I would agree on. Sinister is a good boxing coach in Las Vegas.

My point is you do not just come over and suggest a variation of a 5x5 from a guy who has minimal experience with athletes claiming he is the best in the world. Has probably minimal experience employeed as a strength coach in a professional club or has worked in an olympic team.

Lastly you say football players. No disrespect to american football, but it looks like a low intensity chess game, where strenght will play a huge role. But change the game to Rugby for example and we have a much flowing game where stuff as constant running is needed and cardio vascular work is way more important than strength. Same goes for combat sports and other sports such as basketball and soccer.
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No. This guy coached professional football teams, won national weightlifting championships, wrote for Strength and Health and Iron Man Mag for 50 years, and produced more world champion athletes than all the fuckin poster on a karate forum and your little soccer coaches combined. The very fact you do not know of him or could not be bothered to look him up says more about you than you could say about this program.


fucking lmao learn cool movments wtf. No I don't agree you unilateral bosu ball kettlebell lunge is useful or fucking cool. But tell me a 500 lbs squat isn't gonna give you some confidence. Fucking mind blown.


Regardless, you mentioned a lot of plyo movements, which people should do on this program, but separately because they really have no place IN A STRENGTH TRAINING PROGRAM. Which this is what we are discussing. The only way to get stonger is to overload your muscles and the only way that can be done incrementally is with a barbell.

So no disrespect, you can keep your unilateral bosu ball movements to yourself, because they are ineffective time wasters that people do for years without seeing any progress. They won't make you stronger. Repping out more push ups at the same weight won't make you stronger. Cool movements too boost your confidence are gimmicks.

Hope we cleared that up.
 
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Lip said:
No. This guy coached professional football teams, won national weightlifting championships, wrote for Strength and Health and Iron Man Mag for 50 years, and produced more world champion athletes than all the fuckin poster on a karate forum and your little soccer coaches combined. The very fact you do not know of him or could not be bothered to look him up says more about you than you could say about this program.


fucking lmao learn cool movments wtf. No I don't agree you unilateral bosu ball kettlebell lunge is useful or fucking cool. But tell me a 500 lbs squat isn't gonna give you some confidence. Fucking mind blown.


Regardless, you mentioned a lot of plyo movements, which people should do on this program, but separately because they really have no place IN A STRENGTH TRAINING PROGRAM. Which this is what we are discussing. The only way to get stonger is to overload your muscles and the only way that can be done incrementally is with a barbell.

So no disrespect, you can keep your unilateral bosu ball movements to yourself, because they are ineffective time wasters that people do for years without seeing any progress. They won't make you stronger. Repping out more push ups at the same weight won't make you stronger. Cool movements too boost your confidence are gimmicks.

Hope we cleared that up.
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Yet that does not make him qualified to talk about all sports, especially fight sports. American football is a game where the action lasts barely for 30 seconds and then the game is stopped for about 2 mins to re-arrange the tactics. Strength gaining would have huge benefits in the sport as cardio work and conditioning is barely needed. You can be fat, big and strong and have some IQ bigger than 85 so you can be trained to understand the tactics. This does not mean athletic by any definition. American football should be one of the least athletic sports out there. The comparison to rugbi, soccer, basketball and especially fight sports is close to nowhere to be found.

What I try to suggest is that if strength training gives significant results for such athletes as the ones practicing american football, it does not for other athletes. This is why someone doing fight sports for example would feel over burned with a simple 5x5 variation program. Because this athlete needs to do plyos, few types of cardio, then practice technique on his sport and different taxing drills + spar sessions. So if this guy is already prescribed to do road work in mornings and hit the boxing gym in the afternoon he has like minimum 7 to 10 work outs per week. And if you add a 5x5 variation working from 85 to 95 % for 3-5 reps ... yeah ... where the fuck is that all energy going to come from? Add to that plyos post fight sport gym workouts and you are going to tell me that working 3-5 reps at 85-95% is going to give strength benefits to an athlete ... yeah well ... if you have energy to lift at all.

I will give you a simple example of an on season workout routine we had playing soccer:

Monday - 10 km jog for recovery + stretching + 15 mins drills on aggressive defending
Tuesday - stairs - basically 90 min workout on jumping and climbing stairs
Wednesday - tactical drills + sprints = 45 mins
Thursday - technique + hill sprints = 45 mins
Friday - practice tactical game - low tempo = yet 90 fucking mins
Saturday - actual game = 90 fucking mins
Sunday - off day
We were logging about 50 km per week running low tempo + sprints combined.
So are you suggesting me I should add to that squats, dls and benches at 3x per week 5sets x 5 reps at 85-95 %? Yeah good luck with that.
 
Ilk said:
Yet that does not make him qualified to talk about all sports, especially fight sports. American football is a game where the action lasts barely for 30 seconds and then the game is stopped for about 2 mins to re-arrange the tactics. Strength gaining would have huge benefits in the sport as cardio work and conditioning is barely needed. You can be fat, big and strong and have some IQ bigger than 85 so you can be trained to understand the tactics. This does not mean athletic by any definition. American football should be one of the least athletic sports out there. The comparison to rugbi, soccer, basketball and especially fight sports is close to nowhere to be found.

What I try to suggest is that if strength training gives significant results for such athletes as the ones practicing american football, it does not for other athletes. This is why someone doing fight sports for example would feel over burned with a simple 5x5 variation program. Because this athlete needs to do plyos, few types of cardio, then practice technique on his sport and different taxing drills + spar sessions. So if this guy is already prescribed to do road work in mornings and hit the boxing gym in the afternoon he has like minimum 7 to 10 work outs per week. And if you add a 5x5 variation working from 85 to 95 % for 3-5 reps ... yeah ... where the fuck is that all energy going to come from? Add to that plyos post fight sport gym workouts and you are going to tell me that working 3-5 reps at 85-95% is going to give strength benefits to an athlete ... yeah well ... if you have energy to lift at all.

I will give you a simple example of an on season workout routine we had playing soccer:

Monday - 10 km jog for recovery + stretching + 15 mins drills on aggressive defending
Tuesday - stairs - basically 90 min workout on jumping and climbing stairs
Wednesday - tactical drills + sprints = 45 mins
Thursday - technique + hill sprints = 45 mins
Friday - practice tactical game - low tempo = yet 90 fucking mins
Saturday - actual game = 90 fucking mins
Sunday - off day
We were logging about 50 km per week running low tempo + sprints combined.
So are you suggesting me I should add to that squats, dls and benches at 3x per week 5sets x 5 reps at 85-95 %? Yeah good luck with that.
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Fights are more stop and go than not. The qualities you list don't sound like you have no idea the fuck American Football is or how athletic the players are.

You only work in the 85-90% range one day out of the week, not every session.

On your off season? Absolutely


So again, maybe it's a lack of comprehension on your part but you basically are arguing a strong man.

Enjoy the bosu ball lunges bro
 
Andy Baker and Rippetoe style programming is derived from the works of Bill Starr. To think that these guys do not know what is optimal is preposterous. They have found things that Bill Starr said that were clearly wrong and have optimized that style of programming over years of training people to find out what works and what doesn't.

MMA is not a strength sport but you do not know when you are strong enough until you reach that point. When strength training is eating into recovery and time away from practice of that sport that is when you have a reached the point of being strong enough for that sport.

The Heirarchy for MMA goes like
1 technique
2 conditioning
3 strategy
4 strength

If you read Andy's writings he has talked about this extensively

The program you mentioned is pretty poor because for one if you are actively competing in organized competition that particular program is suboptimal because your resources are dedicated to eating and sleeping enough to perform and your strength program should reflect that. For a recreational guy then yes its probably decent enough though.
 
pokerandbeer said:
Andy Baker and Rippetoe style programming is derived from the works of Bill Starr. To think that these guys do not know what is optimal is preposterous. They have found things that Bill Starr said that were clearly wrong and have optimized that style of programming over years of training people to find out what works and what doesn't.

MMA is not a strength sport but you do not know when you are strong enough until you reach that point. When strength training is eating into recovery and time away from practice of that sport that is when you have a reached the point of being strong enough for that sport.

The Heirarchy for MMA goes like
1 technique
2 conditioning
3 strategy
4 strength

If you read Andy's writings he has talked about this extensively

The program you mentioned is pretty poor because for one if you are actively competing in organized competition that particular program is suboptimal because your resources are dedicated to eating and sleeping enough to perform and your strength program should reflect that. For a recreational guy then yes its probably decent enough though.
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Yo, saw on facebook you joined the jugg ai program. Going to actually stick with it or you bailing 2 weeks in?
 
pokerandbeer said:
Andy Baker and Rippetoe style programming is derived from the works of Bill Starr. To think that these guys do not know what is optimal is preposterous. They have found things that Bill Starr said that were clearly wrong and have optimized that style of programming over years of training people to find out what works and what doesn't.

MMA is not a strength sport but you do not know when you are strong enough until you reach that point. When strength training is eating into recovery and time away from practice of that sport that is when you have a reached the point of being strong enough for that sport.

The Heirarchy for MMA goes like
1 technique
2 conditioning
3 strategy
4 strength

If you read Andy's writings he has talked about this extensively

The program you mentioned is pretty poor because for one if you are actively competing in organized competition that particular program is suboptimal because your resources are dedicated to eating and sleeping enough to perform and your strength program should reflect that. For a recreational guy then yes its probably decent enough though.
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No one suggeste Rip or Andy don't know what they'e talking about, except Rip is spewing hot shit out of his ass if he suggests someone who rolls 3x a week should also add weight 3x a week on a novice program. There's a concept called conditional intermediate, and a noob who has to split resources between their sport and strength training is exactly that. Rip and Andy Baker have spoken about that at length too.

99% of the athletes here are recreational. Jon Jones isn't cruising f12 for lifting advice.


Even then, a competitor is not is not competing even 12 months out of a year. You're telling me that an off season strength cycle is worthless? k bud
 
Rippetoe and his coaches recommends that a fighter should do the program for a few months optimally while decreasing martial arts mat time during that period then they are intermediates and can strategically place lifting sessions to coincide with more mat time
 
Oblivian said:
5x5 on power clean? No thanks.
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Lol at this. Power cleans should be heavy singles, doubles, or triples. Anyone who has done any kind of weightlifting will know this. I agree with you 100%
 
Legendary said:
Lol at this. Power cleans should be heavy singles, doubles, or triples. Anyone who has done any kind of weightlifting will know this. I agree with you 100%
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Not if no other pulling is programmed, which is why he did it that way. But again, I have stated you can do it with trips and as long as it's the appropriate intensity for the day it won't matter
 
Lip said:
Not if no other pulling is programmed, which is why he did it that way. But again, I have stated you can do it with trips and as long as it's the appropriate intensity for the day it won't matter
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I dont disagree with the ramped up 5 x 5. That is a good way to train for most people. I guess it also dependent how heavy your cleans are. I program most of my cleans at 5 x 2, but I can also clean above bodyweight.
 
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