TMA's in U.S. Military Training

[devante]

A long time ago cats on this board used to meet up and spar to straighten shit out...some guys actually had all out fights..I don't expect that type of shit nowadays..but it used to happen

 

[MadSquabbles500]

A long time ago cats on this board used to meet up and spar to straighten shit out...some guys actually had all out fights..I don't expect that type of shit nowadays..but it used to happen

Oldskool

 

[MadSquabbles500]

This may be a silly question.

What happens if the soldier runs out of ammunition or is captured? Is it not a good idea for them to be trained to deal with these types of situations?

 

[jensen34]

This may be a silly question.

What happens if the soldier runs out of ammunition or is captured? Is it not a good idea for them to be trained to deal with these types of situations?

It's not so much a bad idea, but more what's worth spending more time training? You only have so much time and money to train a soldier. It has to be spent efficiently to get the most out of them on the battlefield. Most soldiers will not get captured or run out of ammo, if either happens then something went horribly wrong.

Plus these guys are going into situations where its guns vs guns. If you run out of ammo or get captured, even with years of martial arts training will not make a big difference. Hell, I'd rather spend the time learning the language of my enemy.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

It's not so much a bad idea, but more what's worth spending more time training? You only have so much time and money to train a soldier. It has to be spent efficiently to get the most out of them on the battlefield. Most soldiers will not get captured or run out of ammo, if either happens then something went horribly wrong.

Plus these guys are going into situations where its guns vs guns. If you run out of ammo or get captured, even with years of martial arts training will not make a big difference. Hell, I'd rather spend the time learning the language of my enemy.

But let me ask, how much time can you spend just training the same things over and over again? Having a little variety never hurts. Training H2H can be fun, and be considered downtime, or even a break from the daily grind. You don't even need to spend that much time on it. One hour a day should be enough, or if you schedule is filled, just three days a week only for an hour.

Even in elementary school you had recess, and remember how much fun elementary school was. Then when you get to middle and high school, no more recess and no more fun. You can train different things too, like pugil sticks, knife, short sticks, maybe some Greco roman, and boxing or fencing each on a different day.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

But let me ask, how much time can you spend just training the same things over and over again? Having a little variety never hurts. Training H2H can be fun, and be considered downtime, or even a break from the daily grind. You don't even need to spend that much time on it. One hour a day should be enough, or if you schedule is filled, just three days a week only for an hour.

Even in elementary school you had recess, and remember how much fun elementary school was. Then when you get to middle and high school, no more recess and no more fun. You can train different things too, like pugil sticks, knife, short sticks, maybe some Greco roman, and boxing or fencing each on a different day.

Jessie Ventura was a Navy Seal during Vietnam, and has a funny take on H2H combat.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

This may be a silly question.

What happens if the soldier runs out of ammunition or is captured? Is it not a good idea for them to be trained to deal with these types of situations?

They get shot

 

[Machete Juarez]

But let me ask, how much time can you spend just training the same things over and over again? Having a little variety never hurts. Training H2H can be fun, and be considered downtime, or even a break from the daily grind. You don't even need to spend that much time on it. One hour a day should be enough, or if you schedule is filled, just three days a week only for an hour.

Even in elementary school you had recess, and remember how much fun elementary school was. Then when you get to middle and high school, no more recess and no more fun. You can train different things too, like pugil sticks, knife, short sticks, maybe some Greco roman, and boxing or fencing each on a different day.

In theory, everyone in combat arms in the Army should be proficient in CQC. I believe the 40-hour Basic Combatives course (i.e. hold your opponent down long enough for one of your buddies to come and smoke him) is part of Basic Training. They're trained to "close the distance, gain control, and finish the fight". You'd actually get chewed-out for attempting to engage in a stand-up fight.

That being said though, there is a lot more bullshit than one would realize that service members have to deal with rather than training. A state of war forces cutting corners in training, leaving them to learn more on-the-job, while a state of peace entails a severe lack of funding. There are many good ideas out there, but looking at it realistically, I don't think CQC training is anywhere near the top of this guy's priorities:

This may be a silly question.

What happens if the soldier runs out of ammunition or is captured? Is it not a good idea for them to be trained to deal with these types of situations?

Apparently, this:

 

[MadSquabbles500]

In theory, everyone in combat arms in the Army should be proficient in CQC. I believe the 40-hour Basic Combatives course (i.e. hold your opponent down long enough for one of your buddies to come and smoke him) is part of Basic Training. They're trained to "close the distance, gain control, and finish the fight". You'd actually get chewed-out for attempting to engage in a stand-up fight.

That being said though, there is a lot more bullshit than one would realize that service members have to deal with rather than training. A state of war forces cutting corners in training, leaving them to learn more on-the-job, while a state of peace entails a severe lack of funding. There are many good ideas out there, but looking at it realistically, I don't think CQC training is anywhere near the top of this guy's priorities:

Apparently, this:

LOLOLOL he looks like some of the NYPD. I have 7-11 near me. I go there late at night and all the cops are hanging out there buying chips.

But on a serious note, martial arts is cheap to train, unless you go to a for profit school. That guy needs some exercise.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

LOLOLOL he looks like some of the NYPD. I have 7-11 near me. I go there late at night and all the cops are hanging out there buying chips.

But on a serious note, martial arts is cheap to train, unless you go to a for profit school. That guy needs some exercise.

About a month ago at the WholeFoods in Cupertino, CA I saw fat cops trying to run down a fleeing suspect (if i remember the report, the guy was passing counterfeit bills) and they literally could only run 200 yards.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

About a month ago at the WholeFoods in Cupertino, CA I saw fat cops trying to run down a fleeing suspect (if i remember the report, the guy was passing counterfeit bills) and they literally could only run 200 yards.

two football fields is not bad though.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

two football fields is not bad though.

True, espically with boats and their "batman" utility belts.

 

[Machete Juarez]

But on a serious note, martial arts is cheap to train, unless you go to a for profit school. That guy needs some exercise.

Indeed it is. However, concussions, joint injuries, and broken noses cost the government both money, and manpower to cut grass and pick up cigarette butts. And with the macho culture that Army culture tends to propagate, training-related injuries are quite the norm from every tough guy going 100 miles per hour trying to "knock someone the-fuck out".

It's an issue of bureaucracy and inefficiency. Looking at the high injury rate and the sad state of physical fitness in the Army (even though that is supposedly top priority), one would see that most leaders just don't have enough of a grip on their men or have their priorities straight to be able to properly incorporate extra combat training, while most regular grunts are just 19 year-old punks whose only priorities in life are to get drunk, watch the game, and smash pussy. There have been instances of commanders pushing for martial arts training. Back in the '90s, then LTC McCrystal sent his men from the 2nd Ranger Battalion to train at the Gracie academy in Torrance, which eventually became the foundation of the Army Combatives program (which can actually be quite effective if one actually takes the time to become proficient). Some units actually have certified instructors and train with Combatives once a week, but those would be the exception rather than the rule. Most units would much rather be hardcore and "do CrossFit" until they puke, or run until their knee ligaments come off. "Uuhh, Combatives. That's gay. I'll just shoot him." is an extremely common phrase one would hear all the time.

Yes, they could fix that (even if it could potentially result in more Affliction shirt-wearing tough guys beating their chests in bars during the weekends and getting curb-stomped). But they could also fix the application of physical training and the outdated and downright ignorant methods that are still in use, and they don't even have that under control.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Indeed it is. However, concussions, joint injuries, and broken noses cost the government both money, and manpower to cut grass and pick up cigarette butts. And with the macho culture that Army culture tends to propagate, training-related injuries are quite the norm from every tough guy going 100 miles per hour trying to "knock someone the-fuck out".

It's an issue of bureaucracy and inefficiency. Looking at the high injury rate and the sad state of physical fitness in the Army (even though that is supposedly top priority), one would see that most leaders just don't have enough of a grip on their men or have their priorities straight to be able to properly incorporate extra combat training, while most regular grunts are just 19 year-old punks whose only priorities in life are to get drunk, watch the game, and smash pussy. There have been instances of commanders pushing for martial arts training. Back in the '90s, then LTC McCrystal sent his men from the 2nd Ranger Battalion to train at the Gracie academy in Torrance, which eventually became the foundation of the Army Combatives program (which can actually be quite effective if one actually takes the time to become proficient). Some units actually have certified instructors and train with Combatives once a week, but those would be the exception rather than the rule. Most units would much rather be hardcore and "do CrossFit" until they puke, or run until their knee ligaments come off. "Uuhh, Combatives. That's gay. I'll just shoot him." is an extremely common phrase one would hear all the time.

Yes, they could fix that (even if it could potentially result in more Affliction shirt-wearing tough guys beating their chests in bars during the weekends and getting curb-stomped). But they could also fix the application of physical training and the outdated and downright ignorant methods that are still in use, and they don't even have that under control.

You seem very knowledgeable. What about the service academies like West Point? I think I read somewhere that everyone has to take one semester of wrestling and one of boxing for the guys, and the women have to take a self defense class. Is that all the H2H they get?

What about the elite units? Are they any different? I think I watched some documentary in which the tryout for the Green Berets consisted of a battle royal style wrestle off on a field.

 

[Protectandserve]

You seem very knowledgeable. What about the service academies like West Point? I think I read somewhere that everyone has to take one semester of wrestling and one of boxing for the guys, and the women have to take a self defense class. Is that all the H2H they get?

What about the elite units? Are they any different? I think I watched some documentary in which the tryout for the Green Berets consisted of a battle royal style wrestle off on a field.

Again, they don't really focus on H2H combat. They may learn a few additional things but not a lot. Their focus is on the totality of Close Quarters Battle, integrating weapons, movement, tactics and communication as a team(if that is there area of focus).

Service academies do require some form of wrestling or boxing. Good friend of mine from HS commissioned from the Air Force Academy and did a few semesters of boxing.

 

[DCSpartan]

So Sanshou never showed up. We had two new guys and I walked up to both of them and asked if they were him.

That was a one time offer, honestly, I shouldnt have gotten sucked into his name calling.

Its over.

 

[Protectandserve]

So Sanshou never showed up. We had two new guys and I walked up to both of them and asked if they were him.

That was a one time offer, honestly, I shouldnt have gotten sucked into his name calling.

Its over.

He was holding out for the Anderson Silva VCash...

 

[JohnSouth]

What about the elite units? Are they any different? I think I watched some documentary in which the tryout for the Green Berets consisted of a battle royal style wrestle off on a field.

I think I watched the same documentary but it was a two week long ordeal, mindless exercising for hours, obstacle courses, navigation, keeping them up for days at a time, that sort of thing.

Two weeks in Hell on Netflix.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

So Sanshou never showed up. We had two new guys and I walked up to both of them and asked if they were him.

That was a one time offer, honestly, I shouldnt have gotten sucked into his name calling.

Its over.

Oh snap....

Sanshou??

 

[pseudo genki]

I don't agree with everything Marc MacYoung says about self-defense, but I think he's absolutely on-point here:
(Excerpted from http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/Krav.html )

This brings us something that I recently sent to a cadet who asked me about the 'military martial art' he had been taught, and for a time he taught at the academy. His concern was that ... well, it didn't seem to work. Here's what I said to him about the 'BJJ based system' (his words) he'd been taught.

Is it an effective fighting and killing system? No.

Time to go back a few paradigms. I was watching a series called "Making a Marine." They had the recruits doing BJJ. One drill sergeant summed why they were training in grappling. "We don't expect them to fight at this range, but we want to instill the willingness to fight at ANY range."

As a part of a collective 'whole' of training and indoctrination that is VERY important.

Another thing, is have you considered that it's SUPPOSED to be non-lethal? As in, there's a really good reason for it to be as physically ineffective as you suspect it to be? (Which incidentally it is).

You have a bunch of young and aggressive people that you are training to be 'predators.' Before you deploy them and after they get back from the sandbox WHO are they most likely to unleash their violence on?

The answer is: Each other.

You DON'T want your 'fighters' snapping each other's necks and crushing ribs. So you train them in ineffective hand-to-hand methods and reserve the dangerous stuff to shooting, artillery and air support.

Now throw in the constant striving for dominance and social positioning through competition and horseplay. Suddenly you have a way to allow young men to SAFELY jockey for social position and status without injury. And at the same time to keep their fighting edge.

There's a whole lot more to this training than just being physically effective.

Kinda makes you think twice about how 'dangerous' something is just because it's taught to the military don't it?

Come to think of it, doesn't the military prefer to shoot people? As in shoot the survivors AFTER you've called in an air strike? Last time I checked armies don't throw down their weapons and attack each other empty handed. Even in close quarters. At least that's not how the WWII Pacific Theatre vet said he did it. If I remember right it went something like ... jump into the trench holding your trenching tool. Deflect the bayonet strike, punch the dude in the solar plexus and then proceed to beat him to death with the trenching tool. That was CQC.

So the idea that ANY empty handed system being taught to the military makes it the most deadly thing under the sun doesn't quite wash when you stop and think about it. Is it for killing enemies at close range? Shit hand me that trenching tool or a knife ... I'll do it faster and easier.