TMA's in U.S. Military Training

[TeepKing]

But you missed his point completely and further proving his point also.

Flying a facking helicopter is a serious ass task, compared to learning how to shoot a rifle. Of course pilots, medics, female nurses and whatever non-combat soldiers will all go through basic training to learn how to shoot a rifle and also H2H combat. But they all don't get to go fucking around on $60,000,000 helicopters and risk crashing them.

Again, the military doesn't train its soldiers to be nearly as good as....say an accountant who trains MMA 3x a week and maybe fights 1-2x a year. It's a waste of a soldier's time and a huge risk for injuries to become even a decent, amateur fighter/hobbyist. Becoming this competent fighter is likened to training towards becoming a helicopter pilot, it's not required of all soldiers.

^ THIS

People need to realize not everyone in the military is Rambo. If killing isn't apart of your job why spend time and money learning it? If the enemy as made it that far that someone who's a chaplain has to use hand to hand combat... He's already screwed. No amount of Muay Thai is going to bail him out. Also realize that in the military, hand to hand is kind of a last resort. Once again, if the average soldier gets that close to an ememy, a very long list of people messed up before hand. In the helo pilot senerio, even if his helo gets shot down. That's the end of the mission. He doesn't keep going, at that point he is to survive. That's where survival training comes in. Not hand to hand combat..

 

[MadSquabbles500]

It's like you're obstinately refusing to understand what's being told to you.

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Oh no no, please do not get me wrong. I have found everything you guys have posted to be the utmost informative. I am just dragging this discussion out for as long as possible so I can get as much info out of people as I can. Thank you guys

 

[TeepKing]

Oh no no, please do not get me wrong. I have found everything you guys have posted to be the utmost informative. I am just dragging this discussion out for as long as possible so I can get as much info out of people as I can. Thank you guys

And if that doesn't warrant a DHS investigation, I don't know what will...

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Yes, I am bumping this thread

If the rifle is the first line of defense for a soldier, then that is why they spend so much time working those skills, and then the pistol is the second line, you spend lots of time working on those skills.

But after the pistol what do you have? Your KNIFE right, and that should be your next line of defense right? Is there any knife training you get? I am not saying it has to be as in depth as the rifle and pistol training, but why not some knife training in place of the hand to hand combatives?

If what you say is true about the combatives training not really being all the sufficient, then why not spend that time and let them train with the knife? A little bit of knife training is probably a lot better than a little bit of H2H for self defense anyways. The knife itself is already deadly and inherently requires less effort and skill to kill compared to just your bare hands.

 

[Babba]

Yes, I am bumping this thread

If the rifle is the first line of defense for a soldier, then that is why they spend so much time working those skills, and then the pistol is the second line, you spend lots of time working on those skills.

But after the pistol what do you have? Your KNIFE right, and that should be your next line of defense right? Is there any knife training you get? I am not saying it has to be as in depth as the rifle and pistol training, but why not some knife training in place of the hand to hand combatives?

If what you say is true about the combatives training not really being all the sufficient, then why not spend that time and let them train with the knife? A little bit of knife training is probably a lot better than a little bit of H2H for self defense anyways. The knife itself is already deadly and inherently requires less effort and skill to kill compared to just your bare hands.

pretty fucking absurd argument, brah.

that's not really how real life works, i think you should study up a little on the topic. if someone believes the knife to be important im sure they can get together on their spare time and practice that. it's not going to make any difference having "knife classes", lol.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

pretty fucking absurd argument, brah.

that's not really how real life works, i think you should study up a little on the topic. if someone believes the knife to be important im sure they can get together on their spare time and practice that. it's not going to make any difference having "knife classes", lol.

But then why have the "official" UNARMED training that is the Modern Army Combatives and Marine Corp Martial Arts Program?

I am not saying knife fighting is so important, but apparently the government feels a need to implement an UNARMED fight training. I only say to meeself, well if you are going to implement something like that, why choose an unarmed version when your soldiers carry a knife? Why not make that which you have implemented about that knife the troops are carrying? I mean come on, they already have it on them.

 

[Corgistampede]

But then why have the "official" UNARMED training that is the Modern Army Combatives and Marine Corp Martial Arts Program?

I am not saying knife fighting is so important, but apparently the government feels a need to implement an UNARMED fight training. I only say to meeself, well if you are going to implement something like that, why choose an unarmed version when your soldiers carry a knife? Why not make that which you have implemented about that knife the troops are carrying? I mean come on, they already have it on them.

Because if you end up in a knife fight in an active combat zone, chances are even if you kill your opponent he's going to have a buddy nearby who will promptly shoot you.

 

[chombiebam]

A friend told me that a number of the current and older moves being taught in the U.S. armed forces are traditional martial arts moves from Karate and TKD that have virtually been proven ineffective in the past couple of decades. Do any of you have knowledge of this and could perhaps offer your thoughts on why this is or even if this is still true?

Ineffective if they're going to do Kata moves, but a shuto to the throat and close-quarter elbow to the face would do damage. Maybe the TMA techniques you have in mind are those that you see during competition? A strike is a strike, be it open or close palm, and if you get hit right on the target, it doesn't matter if it is TMA or not.

 

[OAKS]

But then why have the "official" UNARMED training that is the Modern Army Combatives and Marine Corp Martial Arts Program?

I am not saying knife fighting is so important, but apparently the government feels a need to implement an UNARMED fight training. I only say to meeself, well if you are going to implement something like that, why choose an unarmed version when your soldiers carry a knife? Why not make that which you have implemented about that knife the troops are carrying? I mean come on, they already have it on them.

In the Marine Corps we learned some bayonet and knife fighting. In the nonlethal/riot control course I took we learned shield formations and baton techniques. There is so much to being a grunt that the stuff like h2h just isn't that important. Being strong and conditioned and motivated using forward aggression will solve most h2h situations.

 

[mdrnsamurai]

Why are we even sending soldiers to fight battles anymore. Leave these guys alone and send in the Drones. I never heard a Drone coming back to the world with PTSD, and ton of other shit these poor kids have to deal with.

 

[Babba]

Why are we even sending soldiers to fight battles anymore. Leave these guys alone and send in the Drones. I never heard a Drone coming back to the world with PTSD, and ton of other shit these poor kids have to deal with.

you realize what you just said right?

it has more than a few implications, lol.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

In the Marine Corps we learned some bayonet and knife fighting. In the nonlethal/riot control course I took we learned shield formations and baton techniques. There is so much to being a grunt that the stuff like h2h just isn't that important. Being strong and conditioned and motivated using forward aggression will solve most h2h situations.

So you learned the shield wall. That is pretty cool. What kind of nifty tricks did they show you?

 

[LoveDrugSongs]

A friend told me that a number of the current and older moves being taught in the U.S. armed forces are traditional martial arts moves from Karate and TKD that have virtually been proven ineffective in the past couple of decades. Do any of you have knowledge of this and could perhaps offer your thoughts on why this is or even if this is still true?

Hey there! U.S. Army here.

Combatives is a 4 course program. Combatives 1 (somewhat introduced at BCT) and for the most part Combatives 2, is a grappling oriented program that's pretty much basic BJJ interspersed with a few takedowns. It's pretty limited in scope for a reason: Downrange, I'm not going to submit someone, I'm going to prevent myself from getting knifed (i.e., wrist control), while my buddy shoots him in the head or I knife him instead.

Combatives 3 is way more striking oriented and is about four weeks of straight up technique drilling and tournament style fighting with members of your class. It's a straight up bitch. I have not gone though Combatives 3 - My older brother has, and I'm waiting for a slot to open after OCS.

Combatives 4 is also four weeks and is a continuation of combatives 3, but they also focus on instruction. It also entails a tournament style fighting between classmates periodically.

I've trained with military and non-military. I like training with military guys, because there's some camaraderie in the shit, as it were. Some non-mil guys are super ego driven about rolling, trying stuff out, or just drilling in general. But, I've also had good luck with non-mil/mil guys, so it's probably just par the course.

 

[barnowl]

Why are we even sending soldiers to fight battles anymore. Leave these guys alone and send in the Drones. I never heard a Drone coming back to the world with PTSD, and ton of other shit these poor kids have to deal with.

Not to derail, but those Drone pilots still get the same after shocks.

 

[Corgistampede]

Ineffective if they're going to do Kata moves.

But Kata applications are all the fun moves, it just takes a lot of drilling to make them usable.

 

[Paradigm]

Their are plenty of Marines and other soldiers in our MMA gym. They're just average unless they train extra on their own. Some can be big and strong, just like there are strong weight lifters at fitness gyms.....even some at Planet Fitness. With just hand to hand training from their perspective armed service, then they fight like shit, just like any other wild swinging noob; and on the BJJ mat, they tap out just like any other White belts. And most are scared to get hit in the face too if they had no other combat sport training other than what's from the Marines.



Exactly, why waste time training chopsocky when they've got an M4 and 200+ rounds, grenades, backup, a radio for air support, etc. If they run out of ammo, they're dead. Chopsocky don't beat Hajis with AK-47's. Just like the Isralis and that Krav Maga baloney marketing....they're not going to go hand to hand when they can just pull the trigger.

lol...he said "Chopsocky" and his name is (was) Sanshou01. then he got banned.

the end.

 

[OAKS]

So you learned the shield wall. That is pretty cool. What kind of nifty tricks did they show you?

Shield wall, wedge, turtle, pincer. We would practice using a wedge to divide a crowd and snatch an agitator and remove him to the main shield wall. Several of the techniques reminded me of Roman Legionaires or the movie 300.

 

[Volund]

I took a combatives course

Included
Punching
Blocking
Passing guard
Takedowns ( no double legs )
Muay thai clinch with
Knees
Off balancing opponent
Pummeling
Foot sweeps
Transitioning weapons
Pulling weapons away from opponents
And a few other wrestling clinches and pummeling

It was for combatives level 1 certification

Strategy is, if you are clearing a room, haj jumps out and grabs you, you can make distance/fire weapon/get them controlled so your buddy can put a bullet in him or help you detain the person.

We did a few armbars from mount / rear naked choke but they were not stressed as battlefield techniques.

Also empathised head butts. Kevlar to the face is effective.

Combatives 2 and 3 are more mma orientated.

 

[chombiebam]

But Kata applications are all the fun moves, it just takes a lot of drilling to make them usable.

 

[Corgistampede]

All of the takedowns, throws, foot sweeps, standing arm locks, standing chokes, neck cranks; basically everything that you're not allowed to do in kumite which is pretty much everything that isn't punching or kicking, is in kata. They're super fun to practice, but not that practical unless you practice them a lot for a very long time.