Thoughts on my first BJJ class as a Judo black belt.

[Gorbag]

On the pinning debate; I may be biased because I'm primarily a Judoka, but I do believe that pinning skill is an important grappling skill to have. The guy who can hold you down and keep you helpless at his whim, just like the guy with the unpassable guard, is a great grappler, any has more options than the guy who keeps getting pinned or trapped in guard.

To you guys who say you just hang out and relax when pinned... I have no idea who you train with, but they must be some very nice people. I've been in some murderous, grinding osaekomi. If a pin is comfortable enough to relax in, the guy's going easy on you.

That being said, if you're a wrestler/judoka training BJJ and you do nothing but pin and wait, you're kind of missing the point of training BJJ. I like working my osaekomi during rolls as well, but I keep a ten-second rule; if I get a solid hold-down, I keep it for ten seconds and then try to transition to a new one while keeping pressure on. Either I get it and keep the chain going, or the guy escapes and we're back to the scramble. That way, both I and my partner get more out of it.

Maybe its time now for some high level judokas to start invading all those Gracie akademies and do non-stop pinning so they can taste their own medisin from back in the days?? Just joking - I agree with your post...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

On the pinning debate; I may be biased because I'm primarily a Judoka, but I do believe that pinning skill is an important grappling skill to have. The guy who can hold you down and keep you helpless at his whim, just like the guy with the unpassable guard, is a great grappler, any has more options than the guy who keeps getting pinned or trapped in guard.

To you guys who say you just hang out and relax when pinned... I have no idea who you train with, but they must be some very nice people. I've been in some murderous, grinding osaekomi. If a pin is comfortable enough to relax in, the guy's going easy on you.

That being said, if you're a wrestler/judoka training BJJ and you do nothing but pin and wait, you're kind of missing the point of training BJJ. I like working my osaekomi during rolls as well, but I keep a ten-second rule; if I get a solid hold-down, I keep it for ten seconds and then try to transition to a new one while keeping pressure on. Either I get it and keep the chain going, or the guy escapes and we're back to the scramble. That way, both I and my partner get more out of it.

no one is saying is going to be fun to be under a heavy pressure pin, I can assure 100% that no competent grappler is going to tap from just pin pressure. Its uncomfortable as shit, but no one is tapping from it, unless of course there's a sub involved.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Maybe because you live in the US where BJJ seem to be strong and judo relatively weak with lots of "recreational" practitioners? Also, judo and BJJ have different rules on the ground, if you get pinned in judo you lose so its a bit apples and oranges...

Yeah, I have a black belt in Judo and I've trained with national team members. I don't think it's a function of different skill levels so much as Judo pins not requiring a lot of pressure, you just have to keep the guy from escaping. With BJJ since you're trying to force submission opportunities and advance position you need to be more specific about where and how you apply pressure. But as you point out, Judo in the US isn't that great, so maybe that's all it is.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Maybe its time now for some high level judokas to start invading all those Gracie akademies and do non-stop pinning so they can taste their own medisin from back in the days?? Just joking - I agree with your post...

yeah invade top bjj schools, the most likely scenario will be you guys put to sleep.

To pin someone you ahve to pass his guard, good luck with that.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Also BJJ guys are better at pressuring you to open up submissions. Judo guys have good control pressure but it's more like pancake pressure than point pressure.

This is also what the OP is missing - if he thinks he is giving up control by going for subs, he actually has much to improve on his control. Against a good BJJ player, escaping the sub transition is just as hard as escaping a pin.

I experienced the same when I started doing more BJJ from Judo as well.

That's a good way of putting it. Because if a good Judo guy gets you pinned, you are not getting out. You're simply not. But it's pressure that's based on control, not pressure based on advancing (for obvious reasons). I always feel like I can move a little more in Judo pins, I just can't go anywhere.

 

[TheGZA]

Nobody can punch you if you have a grip, not even on the lapel grip side, unless you are totally passive with your grip.

 

[Gorbag]

yeah invade top bjj schools, the most likely scenario will be you guys put to sleep.

To pin someone you ahve to pass his guard, good luck with that.

The Gracies invaded a recreational judo club in Californa with their top guys back in the days and made a video to promote their art! I'm gonna do the opposite; get some worldclass judo newaza specialists and invade a low level recreational jiujitsu school and make a video about the superiority of judo qua art!

Rivalry is good for buisness the gracies have learned me, always some people that will swallow bs propoganda...

 

[freaky]

I went to a judi class.
One guy pinned for 1 minute.
And laughed when I just relaxed and did not fight out of the pin.
He claimed victory because under judo sport rule, he won.

That was interesting training.

And under what rule would the guy being pinned down is the winner? Now I've had both experience where the pinned guy told me to do something and one where the guy pinning me is telling me to try to escape. It works both ways. I think both guys should try to do something.

But I think it is more advantageous for the guy pinning than it is for the pinned guy. In MMA, you be getting ground and pounded and in Judo and wrestling you will be the loser. I don't wtf they do in BJJ but pretty sure the guy pinning you just got a few points for pinning you.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The Gracies invaded a recreational judo club in Californa with their top guys back in the days and made a video to promote their art! I'm gonna do the opposite; get some worldclass judo newaza specialists and invade a low level recreational jiujitsu school and make a video about the superiority of judo qua art!

Rivalry is good for buisness the gracies have learned me, always some people that will swallow bs propoganda...

the head instructor wasnt just some hobbiest, may be not a competitor at the time, but not a hobbiest either.

Royce royler were very young back then, kids actually going vs grown ass man. Rickson went vs the instructor.

Gracies were in the US, what did you expect? them traveling to japan to dojo strom the kodokan?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

And under what rule would the guy being pinned down is the winner? Now I've had both experience where the pinned guy told me to do something and one where the guy pinning me is telling me to try to escape. It works both ways. I think both guys should try to do something.

But I think it is more advantageous for the guy pinning than it is for the pinned guy. In MMA, you be getting ground and pounded and in Judo and wrestling you will be the loser. I don't wtf they do in BJJ but pretty sure the guy pinning you just got a few points for pinning you.

for fuck sakes, except a crucifix position, when was the last time you saw someone get tko from gnp from a pining position???

and you dont get any points for pinning in bjj.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Riner would be UFC champ in 2 years if he picked up MMA seriously.

rinner would have to strike with superior strikers, same thing happened to ishi.

 

[Uchi Mata]

rinner would have to strike with superior strikers, same thing happened to ishi.

Riner is a physical beast in a way that Ishi wasn't. That's the main reason, as much as his Judo expertise. I basically think he'd Brock Lesnar his way to the title. Frankly, I'd also give LeBron James pretty good odds if he put in 3-4 years of constant training, just because HW is bereft of top level athletes.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Riner is a physical beast in a way that Ishi wasn't. That's the main reason, as much as his Judo expertise. I basically think he'd Brock Lesnar his way to the title. Frankly, I'd also give LeBron James pretty good odds if he put in 3-4 years of constant training, just because HW is bereft of top level athletes.

yeah the HWd is pretty shallow.

 

[Jonas g33k]

for fuck sakes, except a crucifix position, when was the last time you saw someone get tko from gnp from a pining position???

and you dont get any points for pinning in bjj.

Mount is a pinning position in judo. I've seen pleinty of gnp from mount and I get 4 points with it in BJJ .

BJJ ground game and judo ground game are different. A good judoka only needs to hold you 20 seconds to win a match, and I can garantee you that escaping during that time frame is not easy if the guy is holding well.

Is this ruleset better or worse than BJJ? I don't know, I enjoy both sports. I feel that my BJJ game would translate better in MMA because I would have a gameplan à la "pass guard > secure side control > mount and GnP > submission". But I also feel that my judo game would translate better in a self-defense situation, because judo teachs you urgency, you only have a few seconds on the ground to escape.

 

[QingTian]

I meant the two-hand standard Judo grip, but I think I could still stop someone from punching my face with one grip (if I wasn't wearing skates too).

 

[Bayonet]

the head instructor wasnt just some hobbiest, may be not a competitor at the time, but not a hobbiest either.

Royce royler were very young back then, kids actually going vs grown ass man. Rickson went vs the instructor.

Gracies were in the US, what did you expect? them traveling to japan to dojo strom the kodokan?

If they wanted to prove that gjj was categorically better Than Judo, then yeah, that would be the logical step. That or seek out the highest level of Judo possible. A recreational club isn't that impressive of a scrap for the world's best in _____ style.

 

[QingTian]

for fuck sakes, except a crucifix position, when was the last time you saw someone get tko from gnp from a pining position???

and you dont get any points for pinning in bjj.

Knees from NS, which IMO is the strongest pin.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

yeah invade top bjj schools, the most likely scenario will be you guys put to sleep.

To pin someone you ahve to pass his guard, good luck with that.

Correct. There are no guard passes in judo...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Mount is a pinning position in judo. I've seen pleinty of gnp from mount and I get 4 points with it in BJJ .

BJJ ground game and judo ground game are different. A good judoka only needs to hold you 20 seconds to win a match, and I can garantee you that escaping during that time frame is not easy if the guy is holding well.

Is this ruleset better or worse than BJJ? I don't know, I enjoy both sports. I feel that my BJJ game would translate better in MMA because I would have a gameplan à la "pass guard > secure side control > mount and GnP > submission". But I also feel that my judo game would translate better in a self-defense situation, because judo teachs you urgency, you only have a few seconds on the ground to escape.

Correct. There are no guard passes in judo...

There is Judokas just suck balls at it.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Knees from NS, which IMO is the strongest pin.

True, I forgot about them..