Rewatch Thiago Alves vs Josh Koscheck

[mkt]

Fighters cut more weight back then; I don't have any Welterweights from today who have cut more weight than those from GSP's era.

Top 3 weight cuts from WW:

Surprised Rumble, Till and Gastelum didn't make the list.

 

[moreorless87]

I think WW had quite a lot of big cutters because MW wasnt really considered a money division until Andersons fights with Chael and Vitor.

People often tended to either cut down to WW or not cut much at all at LHW as those divisions were more proven earners.

 

[mkt]

I think there ended up being a big divide between GSP and pretty much everyone else in that era in terms of striking, nobody else had a jab or general timing nearly as good.

True. But even pillow-fisted fighters like Shields and Fitch sometimes blended their striking pretty effectively with their wrestling, despite their limited skills (see Shields--Woodley, Fitch-Alves, etc.). Kos knew he had KO power and just went for broke in his second fight with GSP and paid for it. IIRC, Kos showed better, more balanced striking against a few guys like Diego Sanchez.

 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

True. But even pillow-fisted fighters like Shields and Fitch sometimes blended their striking pretty effectively with their wrestling, despite their limited skills (see Shields--Woodley, Fitch-Alves, etc.). Kos knew he had KO power and just went for broke in his second fight with GSP and paid for it. IIRC, Kos showed better, more balanced striking against a few guys like Diego Sanchez.

I think GSP/Kos were closer in terms of skills/athleticism in their first fight. By the time that second fight happened, it looked like GSP had evolved beyond well beyond Kos. The quality of GSP's competition is why I personally give him the edge as the top all-time great. The way he dispatched guys of the previous era, his peers, and then guys that started after him.

 

[mkt]

I think GSP/Kos were closer in terms of skills/athleticism in their first fight. By the time that second fight happened, it looked like GSP had evolved beyond well beyond Kos. The quality of GSP's competition is why I personally give him the edge as the top all-time great. The way he dispatched guys of the previous era, his peers, and then guys that started after him.

True. And remember, his last defenses against Hendricks, Diaz, Shields and Condit were after ACL injuries/surgeries. He didn't look like his prime 2008-9 self but still pulled off wins, even if Hendricks was debatable to some. I think the GSP who destroyed Fitch, Kos and Penn would've beaten Johnny more definitively, though Hendricks was a tough style match-up and a handful for anyone in his short prime.

 

[GSP_37]

I didn’t know Alves had brain surgery, scary stuff.

Immediate follow up with left face kick would have been good.

 

[PaulieVegas27]

Other than Colby Covington, I dislike Josh Koschick (yes, misspelling completely intended) more than any other MMA fighter. Cheating, whining crybaby goof. Personally, if I were running the UFC I wouldn't have cut Paul Daley for hitting Mr. "Oh my God his knee scraped my hair!!!!!" guy. I would have given Daley a raise, a medal, and a title shot. And not necessarily in that order.

 

[PaulieVegas27]

True. And remember, his last defenses against Hendricks, Diaz, Shields and Condit were after ACL injuries/surgeries. He didn't look like his prime 2008-9 self but still pulled off wins, even if Hendricks was debatable to some. I think the GSP who destroyed Fitch, Kos and Penn would've beaten Johnny more definitively, though Hendricks was a tough style match-up and a handful for anyone in his short prime.

He sure looked "in his prime" pretending Paul Daley illegally kneed him when it literally grazed his hair.

Pardon the pun but, it takes real balls to be that big a p*ssy.

 

[pankrat]

Fighters cut more weight back then; I don't have any Welterweights from today who have cut more weight than those from GSP's era.

Top 3 weight cuts from WW:

First of all, those numbers are not verified, and you dont know how much some modern WWs weight in fight night neither.

You are the worst kind of shertard: deeply ignorant pretending to present random data from the internet as legitimate knowledge. The worst kind of shertard.

The average weight for Adesanya's tittle challengers is around 10lbs heavier than for Silva's tittle challengers. Same goes for LHW and any other division.

Nobody in the MMA community, nutritionists and conditioning coaches, would dispute that the average size/weight has increased. Only a pretentious shertard would

 

[THEfightsAREfixed]

I remember Rogan mentioning how big Alves was when they were doing the intros in the GSP fight. He said he would walk around at least 200 pounds or something.

Guys were much shorter back then probably cause they didn't cut as much weight.

Fighters used to cut a lot more height back then

 

[pankrat]

I think WW had quite a lot of big cutters because MW wasnt really considered a money division until Andersons fights with Chael and Vitor.

People often tended to either cut down to WW or not cut much at all at LHW as those divisions were more proven earners.

If Kampman or Swick dropped from MW to WW in UFC it wasnt because of money.
It's because they tried to make a run to a tittle shot at MW and failed to even get a tittle eliminator.
Then dropped to WW and both made a run to a tittle eliminator.
It was not because of it being a "money division" or not.

That could be right for a guy as Jake Shields, who came in as Strikeforce MW champ and actually fought at MW in UFC, but Dana wanted a new, legitimate contender for GSP, so probably in that case money was a factor, but far from a general trend.

 

[Frode Falch]

This was also a war.

 

[mkt]

He sure looked "in his prime" pretending Paul Daley illegally kneed him when it literally grazed his hair.

Pardon the pun but, it takes real balls to be that big a p*ssy.

I was referring to GSP. I think Kos was still prime in the Daley fight. Like I said earlier, his last prime performance was against Hendricks just after the second fight from GSP. All downhill from there.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

a lowkick masterclass. we didn't see low kicks like that in the ufc back then

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Consider that Fitch (Koscheck's training partner at AKA and another wrestler) beat Alves twice, I wonder how this would've gone if Josh had a full camp? It's still an impressive win for Alves. Prime Alves vs. Ian Garry would be an interesting fight. Ian would have his usual height/reach advantage, but if Alves could connect some of those kicks to those long, toothpick legs...I don't know long Ian could remain mobile.

well one of those wins was a weird one. pretty sure alves dropped fitch and got hit with an upkick or something as he went to finish him off. might be thinking of a different alves fight though idk

 

[BowserJr]

Back then welterweights were 5'6 - 5'9 the same average height as featherweight today, a 5'10 is considered huge, welterweights nowadays are 5'11 minimum.

When did the height class narrative start?

 

[VinceArch]

When did the height class narrative start?

Back in 2010 when Shane Carwin was listed as 6'5 for whatever reason. At least that's when I remember the height memes starting.

 

[iwannabeadored]

Back then welterweights were 5'6 - 5'9 the same average height as featherweight today, a 5'10 is considered huge, welterweights nowadays are 5'11 minimum.

That’s true but they were also saucing. Tiago was 5-8 200 lbs with abs.

 

[BowserJr]

Back in 2010 when Shane Carwin was listed as 6'5 for whatever reason. At least that's when I remember the height memes starting.

lol I remember that but for some reason people here seem to purely be basing weight on height saying this like Thiago alves would be BW nowadays, Jeff Monson would be a mw, Gsp would be a fw, Igor v would be a lw, sherk would be a sw and so on

 

[VinceArch]

lol I remember that but for some reason people here seem to purely be basing weight on height saying this like Thiago alves would be BW nowadays, Jeff Monson would be a mw, Gsp would be a fw, Igor v would be a lw, sherk would be a sw and so on

Hmm.. might've been before my time here.