Economy The [Wall / Government Shutdown] Megathread

[Trotsky]

That was pretty creative and insidious. My opinion of him just went up.

Color me shocked that he is actually a lying sleaze spreading lies to swindle people outta their money and personal info. It's almost like fungible soldiers the world over aren't a bunch of individually uber-moral heroes.

 

[7437]

Color me shocked that he is actually a lying sleaze spreading lies to swindle people outta their money. It's almost like fungible soldiers the world over aren't a bunch of individually uber-moral heroes.

I'd assumed he was just retarded. Evil is better than retarded

 

[glenwo2]

We should put a giant wheel at the border

I swear, King...this is getting ridiculous now.

I always believed in the old adage : "Say what you mean and mean what you say"....but Trump isn't doing that from what I'm seeing now. He's turning into the very thing I despise : A POLITICIAN.

Would I still support him going the emergency powers route if he said "fuck it. Let's go"? Yes but only 'cause :

1.) It's the only way to finally get the ball rolling on building the wall or barrier(or whatever he calls it)

and

2.) It would end the shutdown immediately.

 

[glenwo2]

Dems are hypocrites

Was that a video of Cuomo or someone wearing a Cuomo mask?

 

[King in the North]

I swear, King...this is getting ridiculous now.

I always believed in the old adage : "Say what you mean and mean what you say"....but Trump isn't doing that from what I'm seeing now. He's turning into the very thing I despise : A POLITICIAN.

Would I still support him going the emergency powers route? Yes but only 'cause :

1.) It's the only way to finally get the ball rolling on building the wall or barrier(or whatever he calls it)

and

2.) It would end the shutdown immediately.

He doesn’t say what he means and he doesn’t mean what he says. He fits right in with the other hacks.

I thought the most likely scenario was exactly what you said, for the reasons listed (and to not get his feelings hurt by Sean Hannity), and I’m apparently the only one who isn’t certain what the Court would do. But now it looks like he’s back off that.

I have no idea what happens next.

I like the wheel idea. Or a bunch of wheels.

 

[glenwo2]

Drump will probably declare a crisis to bypass Congress knowing it will still get tossed out in court. This way he can pass a budget and still say he tried to do it saving face with his base and preventing Coulter and Hannity from yelling at him and making him sad.

Hannity doesn't yell. He lectures and wags his finger.

Coulter, on the other hand.....She's a screamer.

But you nailed it though that this could be Trump's plan as I doubt he really believes this would not get struck down by the courts. Even the SCOTUS may strike it down in the end(and he probably realizes that possibility) so he might still do it but only to, as you said, "save face" for his constituents and such, as well as his own Party(Republican).

 

[glenwo2]

He doesn’t say what he means and he doesn’t mean what he says. He fits right in with the other hacks.

I thought the most likely scenario was exactly what you said, for the reasons listed (and to not get his feelings hurt by Sean Hannity), and I’m apparently the only one who isn’t certain what the Court would do. But now it looks like he’s back off that.

I have no idea what happens next.

I like the wheel idea. Or a bunch of wheels.

They always said you can't "re-invent the wheel" but if anyone can do it, YOU Can.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Dems are hypocrites

Did you even watch that video? Selective editing, poorly done. Nobody is blanket hating on barriers of any kind. The opposition is to Trump's massive, hundreds of miles long wall, which he has stated Mexico would pay for, but neglected to tell anyone he would be ceding land to Mexico and taking land from thousands of US citizens and businesses.

But hey, I'm not hatin, get your news from the gayest tree ever channel on youtube........

 

[Islam Imamate]

I can't answer that but about point 2, walls have been very effective in stopping migrants as seen in Hungary, Israel, India and even in the walled areas in the US. I'm using wall as a catch all term for fence, barrier, or a big beautiful concrete wall.
Considering the strong correlation between income and productivity, and that the average mexican-american has very low income I don't think they help that much in keeping productivity high and I'd bet the people that walk over are even less productive than the ones that overstay their visas.
If you really care about productivity, and you don't, you should support immigration from asia, something like a H1-B visa, and in much larger scale.

Israel is a pretty different situation from the US though. Palestine is much smaller than Mexico and so is its border with Israel. Also, the "most moral army in the world" has no qualms just firing at anyone who gets close while I imagine American border patrol agents show a little more restraint.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Just giving in would be incredibly stupid. What would stop Trump for just doing this for everything he wants?

If its something worth fighting for then sure, don't give in. But the wall is not a big deal IMO, the worst thing about it is that it could disrupt the habitats of animals that live in the border region between the US and Mexico. If I was a Dem in Congress and the GOP could somehow assure me their "wall" would not do that(not likely to be fair) I would have no qualms in voting for it.

 

[7437]

If its something worth fighting for then sure, don't give in. But the wall is not a big deal IMO, the worst thing about it is that it could disrupt the habitats of animals that live in the border region between the US and Mexico. If I was a Dem in Congress and the GOP could somehow assure me their "wall" would not do that(not likely to be fair) I would have no qualms in voting for it.

Trump is like a child screaming in a grocery store. Giving in to his tantrum will make him worse not better.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Trump is like a child screaming in a grocery store. Giving in to his tantrum will make him worse not better.

There are real people, about 800,000, out there suffering without their paychecks for three weeks, not to mention the damage done to the parks. Would rather end that but if you think the answer to a tantrum is to respond with another then sure, let's applaud the stubbornness of the Dems. But I'd rather not. Compared to his tax bill the wall is honestly a nothingburger.

 

[7437]

There are real people, about 800,000, out there suffering without their paychecks for three weeks, not to mention the damage done to the parks. Would rather end that but if you think the answer to a tantrum is to respond with another then sure, let's applaud the stubbornness of the Dems. But I'd rather not. Compared to his tax bill the wall is honestly a nothingburger.

They will be without pay again as soon as trump wants something if the dems just give in. Trump has shown to have no idea how to deal with Congress on any level. Of he finds that shutting the government down gets him what he wants, he will shut down the government to get what he wants.

 

[spin]

There are real people, about 800,000, out there suffering without their paychecks for three weeks, not to mention the damage done to the parks. Would rather end that but if you think the answer to a tantrum is to respond with another then sure, let's applaud the stubbornness of the Dems. But I'd rather not. Compared to his tax bill the wall is honestly a nothingburger.

im going to bed so i wont be able to respond for a while, but i had to post


A President said "give me the thing i want, or i shut down the government". and then he did.

can you really not see the problem with giving in to this?

yeah, this is worth fighting for.

 

[Lead]

They would strike it down BECAUSE it's a violation of the checks and balances

True but it also remains true them being the third branch restored the balance. When two branches disagree, the third branch usually gets the final say.

 

[kahiljabroni]

There is no crisis, its simply trying to fulfill a campaign slogan and being pressured by right wing media. Also, “Property Rights” was a rallying cry for conservatives. The prospect of the Feds seizing private land to fulfill a phony campaign scheme would have caused outrage on the right. Every house rep that lives on the border does not want, and says there is no need for a wall. This whole debate is as absurd as his Presidency.

There Is No Border Crisis
America is only a year removed from a December 2017 Department of Homeland Security (DHS) report that hailed the agency’s great success in achieving “the lowest level of illegal cross-border migration on record.” A fresh look at current and historical data shows that despite the attention paid to the dueling televised addresses delivered on January 8, 2019, there is no crisis at the border.

“In FY 2017, CBP [Customs and Border Protection] recorded the lowest level of illegal cross-border migration on record, as measured by apprehensions along the border and inadmissible encounters at U.S. ports of entry,” according to the Trump administration’s DHS report released in December 2017. Did the situation at the border change dramatically over the next 13 months and go from an historic “lowest level of illegal cross-border migration” to a national crisis? The answer is, “No.”

Border Patrol apprehensions along the Southwest border in FY 2018 were the 5th lowest level of illegal entry recorded in the past 46 years. (Apprehensions are a proxy for illegal entry.) While the 396,579 apprehensions in FY 2018 represented a 30% increase from FY 2017, that’s largely because the 303,916 apprehensions in FY 2017 were the lowest number of apprehensions recorded along the Southwest border since 1972 – nearly a half century ago.

Who said border patrol apprehension was the only way to measure a crisis?

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Do you have some sort of data to back this up? None of those three are countries with much economic or social gravity to pull in migrants. There would need to be some before/after data with maybe some details on ongoing expenditures. And, for Israel, the population relative to the size of the border make it a very different case.

Hungary doesn't bring in migrants itself but it was a gateway to Germany.
Numbers of migrants/day in 2015, before and after the fence.

Of course, it wasn't just a fence, it was a manned fence.

The same with the US, again, there are other factors, like more border agents

It's obvious, any kind of barrier makes it harder for the migrant and easier for the agents. I can't really make an analysis of cost versus benefit for a forum.

About the Hispanics productivity, I'm not sure what I said that was controversial. Productivity is related to income, low income people are mostly of lower productivity (of course, that correlation isn't perfect), most people that walk over the border are low income and remain so. A guy who picks vegetables has a noble job but his productivity in dollars is obviously lower than the average in the US. Of course, absolute GDP of the country can increase with his job and having a larger population might be a way for the US to stay ahead of China and later on India, two high GDP, low productivity countries. A college graduate can have 5x the productivity of a guy walking over the border, who is most likely going to work as a farm laborer or a low income service job. It isn't a central issue, so I will leave it at that.

 

[kahiljabroni]

It's not in his powers to circumvent Congress because he isn't getting his way. Literally every legal expert outside of the alt right has stated this.

And the reason people don't consider it a crisis, is because it's not...if it's such a damn crisis where the fuck were the republicans the last two years? The actual data shows less border crossings than the last 20 years and the economic impact is negligible.

What does congress have to do with his ability to declare an emergency other than the fact that they created the law that grants Trump the power to do so?

The law was created because 90% of history congress is in gridlock. The fkn dump hasn't passed one good bipartisan bill in the last two presidents. It's partisanship at its highest level.

That's why the president has this power...to respond to an emergency where congress is too slow and dysfunctional.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Israel is a pretty different situation from the US though. Palestine is much smaller than Mexico and so is its border with Israel. Also, the "most moral army in the world" has no qualms just firing at anyone who gets close while I imagine American border patrol agents show a little more restraint.

That's all true but the US is also much richer and it doesn't need to be as efficient as the Israeli wall. A 50% reduction in the number of migrants would still be pretty big.

 

[Trotsky]

I'm actually surprised by the lack of votes for "I am a Trump supporter and I don't support the use of emergency funds." I thought there would be at least some posters who support trump but have some semblance of sense or principle.