Economy The [Wall / Government Shutdown] Megathread

[andnowweknow]

I saw hitler wore a tie once
Martin Luther king wore a tie

Holy shit it was right in front of me the whole time


Oh and since you’re comparing the two yourenkw saying Mexico is the most evil government of all time and responsible for tens of million of death. Your comparison not mine

 

[curryjunkie]

And this is where you're playing revisionist history. You "isolated" the meat of the promise? That's not what a promise is. That's rhetoric - the meat of an argument.

A promise is a promise. Trying to carve it down to "this is promise" and "that is non-promise" just means that there was no promise to begin with. The 2 pieces were linked and comprised the promise in its totality. And if one half wasn't meant to be taken literally then the entire promise is not meant to be taken literally.

#alternativepromise

 

[KILL KILL]

Arrests for border crossings hit 46 year low...

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/05/568546381/arrests-for-illegal-border-crossings-hit-46-year-low

 

[hillelslovak87]

I saw hitler wore a tie once
Martin Luther king wore a tie

Holy shit it was right in front of me the whole time


Oh and since you’re comparing the two yourenkw saying Mexico is the most evil government of all time and responsible for tens of million of death. Your comparison not mine

More babble, absent grammar or coherence. Trump's position, which you seem to support entirely, is untenable, and undone by his own words and actions.

Again,
https://www.amazon.com/English-Gram...ocphy=9033532&hvtargid=pla-526449824861&psc=1

You're welcome, Susan.

 

[glenwo2]

Trump holding off on declaring national emergency on the border, calls on Democrats to fund wall

President Trump on Friday said he was holding off on declaring a national emergency on the border, renewing calls for Democrats to break the stalemate over wall funding.

"The easy solution is for me to call a national emergency," he said. "But I'm not going to do that so fast as this is something Congress should do and we're waiting for the Democrats to vote."

Trump made the remarks at a roundtable on border security on the 21st day of the partial government shutdown that began after Democrats and Republicans were unable to come to an agreement on Trump’s demand for almost $6 billion in funding for a wall.

As the stalemate drags on, Trump has said he was considering declaring a national emergency -- which would give him more powers to build the wall without congressional approval.

"The law is very clear. I mean, we have the absolute right to declare a national emergency," Trump told Fox News' Sean Hannity in an exclusive interview Thursday. "This is a national emergency, if you look what's happening."

But on Friday he said it would hold off on such action, and he urged "the Democrats to come back to Washington and vot

"It's the easy way out, but Congress should do this. It's too simple, too basic and Congress should do this," he said.

Trump had also seen some encouragement from Republicans in Congress for the measure. Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said in a statement he had met with Trump and said that Democrats don't intend to make a deal.

“Mr. President, declare a national emergency now," he said. "Build a wall now.”

He also brushed off concerns from Democrats about the effectiveness of the wall, saying that El Paso has gone from one of the most dangerous cities to one of the safest, because of the barrier there.

He also addressed claims that the wall was a “medieval solution.”

“They say it’s medieval. Well, so is the wheel,” he said. “Some things don’t change, wheels and walls.”

Trump also expressed his flexibility on whether the barrier would be a concrete wall or a steel barrier, saying while he would prefer concrete steel “works just as well.”



>>> Oh for the love of....

Really, Trump?

After all that, you're NOT going to go the "emergency powers" route?

C'mon man....

 

[Islam Imamate]

Honestly even though I don't think the wall is such a great idea the Dems should've given in by now, really $5.7 billion ain't that much and this shutdown is really fucking over a lot of people. But it seems like the Democratic establishment would rather on focus on these symbolic issues to show to their base that they are resisting Trump while not actually doing much of note.

At this point though it seems neither side is willing to back down just to save face, pretty sad.

 

[Trotsky]

I'm genuinely curious to see the distribution of opinions here.

As far as I can tell, consideration of this topic should be three-tiered. Supporters should be pondering:
(1) can the Southern border be reasonably accurately described as an emergency or crisis?
(2) is this the most effective solution toward resolving the purported emergency/crisis? and
(3) are there terms by which this "crisis" could be differentiated from subsequent applications to things like gun violence, economic inequality, and climate change?

On Criterion #1: On "emergency" or "crisis," I think the most conservative definition would be a situation in which drastic measures are necessary to avoid an imminent catastrophe involving material loss of well-being. A more liberal definition would include any political problem that has, if not reached an historic high, then is at least actively increasing. Given that undocumented immigration is at a twenty-year low and has been in decline for ten years, this would be a very tough sell.

On Criterion #2: There isn't much in the way of empirical data on or objective metrics by which to measure the efficacy of a wall. However, we do know (i) that visa overstays make up half of undocumented immigrants and would not be addressed, (ii) erection of a wall would be extremely expensive and would require only marginally less in the way of border surveillance expenditures and would likely entail some level of maintenance costs, and (iii) given the age demographics of the US and current and growing worker shortage, deportation removes revenue and removes economic productivity, while naturalization retains productivity and raises revenue through naturalization fees.

On Criterion #3: I will have to leave this for the actual Trump supporters to weigh in on. In light of the facts on #1 and #2, I would find it difficult to rationally differentiate this as being a crisis or emergency in a way that something like climate change or gun violence couldn't reasonably be said to be.​

@Madmick I apologize for another wall thread, but I'm genuinely curious about this. Feel free to merge the polls into your mega-thread. @Lead can I get a poll with:

• I'm a Trump supporter and I would support using emergency powers
• I'm a Trump supporter and I would not support use of emergency powers
• I'm not really a Trump supporter, but I would support him using emergency powers (the Viva Rev option)
• I'm not a Trump supporter. I don't support him using emergency powers to build a wall.

 

[Fawlty]

Point three is one that people should think really carefully about. Will you rely on the goodwill of the left not to abuse power in the same way? Careful what you wish for.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I can't answer that but about point 2, walls have been very effective in stopping migrants as seen in Hungary, Israel, India and even in the walled areas in the US. I'm using wall as a catch all term for fence, barrier, or a big beautiful concrete wall.
Considering the strong correlation between income and productivity, and that the average mexican-american has very low income I don't think they help that much in keeping productivity high and I'd bet the people that walk over are even less productive than the ones that overstay their visas.
If you really care about productivity, and you don't, you should support immigration from asia, something like a H1-B visa, and in much larger scale.

 

[Trotsky]

Point three is one that people should think really carefully about. Will you rely on the goodwill of the left not to abuse power in the same way? Careful what you wish for.

I think that's rhetorically important....but not really realistically important. There is no evidence in American history that would suggest the American left would ever act in a way similar to the American right in terms of breaking political norms (even after the Great Depression, Democrats didn't fall in line with FDR in some of his more ambitious attempts at short-cutting), denying factual reality to the tune of billions, and poisoning the political well.

I can't answer that but about point 2, walls have been very effective in stopping migrants as seen in Hungary, Israel, India and even in the walled areas in the US. I'm using wall as a catch all term for fence, barrier, or a big beautiful concrete wall.

Do you have some sort of data to back this up? None of those three are countries with much economic or social gravity to pull in migrants. There would need to be some before/after data with maybe some details on ongoing expenditures. And, for Israel, the population relative to the size of the border make it a very different case.

Considering the strong correlation between income and productivity and that the average mexican-american has very low income I don't think they help that much in keeping productivity high and I'd bet the people that walk over are even less productive than the ones that overstay their visas.

You'll need to flesh this out. Because at first glance, it looks like nonsense.

If you really care about productivity, and you don't, you should support immigration from asia, something like a H1-B visa, and in much larger scale.

Productivity (or rather preventing unnecessary losses in it) is not my only or biggest consideration, but it is a consideration among many. I think most responsible adults think that way.

 

[Demoslasher]

I also feel people need to realize this would be the single biggest power grab a president has ever attempted in our lifetime. It's literally "Congress won't give me what I want, so I'll just make up a Crisis to ignore Congress all together."

It would signal the end of checks and balances as the founders intended. It would set a very dangerous precedent for all future presidents that they can simply ignore Congress..

That and it's almost guaranteed to be struck down by the courts

 

[ocfightfan]

I would go with option 4. I prefer Constitutional government.

 

[7437]

I would go with option 4. I prefer Constitutional government.

So opposed then

 

[ocfightfan]

So opposed then

That would be correct. I want better border security, but declaring an emergency is not the right way to make it happen.

 

[SleepyBoy]

Our immigration policy is broken, because we like it broken.

we can fix it anytime we want to, it is rather simple compared to something super complex like healthcare.

But both sides like it broken, so broken it will stay.

 

[ebe9]

Declare an emergency to insure domestic tranquility? Sounds Constitutional to me so yes,

 

[mb23100]

Nope. Sets bad precedent. Checks and balances.

Question for anti-wallers. If we could snap our fingers and have a wall tomorrow at no cost to anyone would you support it?

 

[kahiljabroni]

As a supporter yes I do. It's within his legal right to do so and the only reason many think it's not a crisis is because it's become the norm and they are numb to it.

 

[King in the North]

Trump holding off on declaring national emergency on the border, calls on Democrats to fund wall

President Trump on Friday said he was holding off on declaring a national emergency on the border, renewing calls for Democrats to break the stalemate over wall funding.

"The easy solution is for me to call a national emergency," he said. "But I'm not going to do that so fast as this is something Congress should do and we're waiting for the Democrats to vote."

Trump made the remarks at a roundtable on border security on the 21st day of the partial government shutdown that began after Democrats and Republicans were unable to come to an agreement on Trump’s demand for almost $6 billion in funding for a wall.

As the stalemate drags on, Trump has said he was considering declaring a national emergency -- which would give him more powers to build the wall without congressional approval.

"The law is very clear. I mean, we have the absolute right to declare a national emergency," Trump told Fox News' Sean Hannity in an exclusive interview Thursday. "This is a national emergency, if you look what's happening."

But on Friday he said it would hold off on such action, and he urged "the Democrats to come back to Washington and vot

"It's the easy way out, but Congress should do this. It's too simple, too basic and Congress should do this," he said.

Trump had also seen some encouragement from Republicans in Congress for the measure. Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said in a statement he had met with Trump and said that Democrats don't intend to make a deal.

“Mr. President, declare a national emergency now," he said. "Build a wall now.”

He also brushed off concerns from Democrats about the effectiveness of the wall, saying that El Paso has gone from one of the most dangerous cities to one of the safest, because of the barrier there.

He also addressed claims that the wall was a “medieval solution.”

“They say it’s medieval. Well, so is the wheel,” he said. “Some things don’t change, wheels and walls.”

Trump also expressed his flexibility on whether the barrier would be a concrete wall or a steel barrier, saying while he would prefer concrete steel “works just as well.”



>>> Oh for the love of....

Really, Trump?

After all that, you're NOT going to go the "emergency powers" route?

C'mon man....

We should put a giant wheel at the border

 

[Grok]

Nope. Sets bad precedent. Checks and balances.

Question for anti-wallers. If we couls snap our fingers and have a wall tomorrow at no cost to anyone would you support it?

In your imaginary magical snap scenario, is the snap only good for a free wall? Or can the snap give us ANYTHING for free?