Television The Star Trek Thread V6.0

[deucesarewild]

So all those YouTubers that spent the last four years shitting on nuTrek that said season 3 is great… I’m wondering if they’re only saying that because in their words season 3 “isn’t woke”. All these guys like Critical Drinker, Dave Cullen, Nerdrotic etc seem to care about is the culture wars bullshit.

While I would say this seems better than season 1 or 2 it’s still not at all what I’d call anywhere near as good as TNG, DS9 or the first six movies. The writing fucking sucks. I knew not to believe the hype.

All I know is that season 3 is written better, and obvious fans of the franchise will react with big feels if their franchise, on its way to the morgue, is instead being redirected to the intensive care unit. The quality of the writing on TNG, in particular is the gold standard for sci fi, until something better comes along. The themes, carefully developed and deep cast, and variety of experiences and conflicts across 176 episodes or whatever is impressive. Sure there were not so great/bad episodes, and technological limitations meant they had to get creative with rendering and creating certain alien species, but it is consistently an engaging show. Its worst episode might be better than the best of any episode from Picard s1 or s2. Maybe. Worth thinking about. I don't care about all this "woke" stuff because it doesn't care about the story or its story world and those are the most important, honest parts to writing, but I do know if you were to listen most t.v. today blindfolded (woke or not, idgaf) you would hear more bad storytelling than good. Some of those guys you mentioned I don't know but I came across one or 2 wandering through YouTube one day. It seems they are annoyed that "culture war bushit" is affected storytelling, subverting story world immersion and the art of storytelling in favour of convenient/bad writing and writing with some social initiative behind it rather than getting into the universalities of the human condition. That can be annoying at its best, and at its worst it can be downright defeating. Quentin Tarantino made an interesting point saying that this is the most, or one of the most, oppressive eras in cinema.

 

[deucesarewild]

^ This is how I felt about Star Trek First Contact and people love that film for some reason.

You mean that you didn't like Picard's portrayal in First Contact, or that you disliked it while everyone else liked it?

 

[deviake]

"Woke" doesn't concern me. It lost whatever meaning it ever had and seems to just refer to people with different skin tones in a show or movie at this point. Most "woke" stuff I see people complaining about is that, race/gender swapped characters (another thing I care little about), and/or often bad writing accompanying those things. I think many of the youtubers complaining about that would hit the roof if Leia or Judy Dench as M happened today. Remember when she straight up called Bond a "sexist misogynist dinosaur; a relic of the cold war" 30 fucking years ago?? Lol.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I definitely see the flaws in the writing that people have mentioned, but, the cast, pacing, and framework of this season have been more than enough to make the show compelling.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the writing sucks, because there are places where I think it is quite good. For instance, I thought the scene between Beverly and Picard was a really good, heavy scene. I was actually a bit surprised they let it be in the show, and let it go that long. It was nice to see a real, messy, human moment in a show about aliens and starships.

There definitely is some manufactured drama that doesn't make much sense, like Picard and Riker bickering in front of the crew the way they did.
Rafi is just a really bad character. And I think the lady playing her is a bad actress. She just doesn't feel like she belongs here to me.

This season is a massive improvement though, and it's a show that I'm now actively looking forward to each week.

 

[The Clinch]

Wondering if Sisko could return by the end of the season?

 

[deviake]

Yoooooo... Okay. I'm on board officially with S3 of Picard. I still have my nitpicks and the dialogue bugs me* (too modern) but episode 4 in particular feels like Star Trek. That was a very satisying episode, that's some old school shit. It seems like the writing got better and there were great setups/payoffs, both in episode and from previous episodes. I'm happy with that episode, if the writing holds or gets better I'll be happy with this season.

I liked Picard reasserting himself to Riker and Shaw. Well written, good timing. The dynamic between Picard and Riker is great, hell, the dynamic between Picard and Jack too. Also, I've warmed up to Shaw, I really liked him in this episode. I officially like him as a character. Shaw calling Seven Hansen makes more sense meow. Again, setup, payoff.

I'm hoping the quality holds or improves as it goes on. I'm cautiously optimistic, after this episode I think it might be in good hands.

Edit: The modern parlance of the dialogue bothers me, but the dialogue itself is vastly improved from the first two seasons and I enjoyed it a lot this episode.

 

[deviake]

Holy shit, I'm actually jazzed about Star Trek again.

Also, did anyone else notice the Alien Nostromo self-destruct alarm? It sorta took me out of it but was cool at the same time.

 

[sverre054]

Wondering if Sisko could return by the end of the season?

Sadly I think he's in Poor health. He hasn't made a public appearance in a decade and hasn't acted in well over 20 years.

 

[sverre054]

Yoooooo... Okay. I'm on board officially with S3 of Picard. I still have my nitpicks and the dialogue bugs me* (too modern) but episode 4 in particular feels like Star Trek. That was a very satisying episode, that's some old school shit. It seems like the writing got better and there were great setups/payoffs, both in episode and from previous episodes. I'm happy with that episode, if the writing holds or gets better I'll be happy with this season.

I liked Picard reasserting himself to Riker and Shaw. Well written, good timing. The dynamic between Picard and Riker is great, hell, the dynamic between Picard and Jack too. Also, I've warmed up to Shaw, I really liked him in this episode. I officially like him as a character. Shaw calling Seven Hansen makes more sense meow. Again, setup, payoff.

I'm hoping the quality holds or improves as it goes on. I'm cautiously optimistic, after this episode I think it might be in good hands.

Edit: The modern parlance of the dialogue bothers me, but the dialogue itself is vastly improved from the first two seasons and I enjoyed it a lot this episode.

The episode really had elements of all the trek series, and It worked really well. I'm curious if the bird masked guys on the Shriek are Jem'Hadar.

 

[sverre054]

Episode 3 and 4 were directed by the GOAT Jonathan Frakes

 

[Deleted member 110072]

^ This is how I felt about Star Trek First Contact and people love that film for some reason.

I think you could argue people were a bit more willing to take it with First Contact because that was a one off film in a franchise which was producing shows which kept to the style of typical TNG era trek better, also I do think as an action adventure it was reasonably well written/directed. You could also maybe argue as well that Picard had enough history with the Borg that his behaving in a more irrational manner was somewhat justified, not sure I entirely buy that myself but still I think it does make it a little easier to take.

Really though I never considered First Contact much more than a mildly entertaining diversion.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

I thought the whole “look for the Changeling’s bucket” bit was super fucking stupid. While Changeling’s do need to regenerate in liquid form it’s not like they have a designated bucket as was depicted in episode 4. Odo’s bucket had sentimental value to him, but we’re supposed to believe that this Changeling will go on missions to commit espionage and what? Bring a bucket along with it that it will have to hide? So dumb. A Changeling could just go liquid in the sink or a toilet, instead of this BYOB approach and then hiding the bucket in the damn light fixture.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

I thought the whole “look for the Changeling’s bucket” bit was super fucking stupid. While Changeling’s do need to regenerate in liquid form it’s not like they have a designated bucket as was depicted in episode 4. Odo’s bucket had sentimental value to him, but we’re supposed to believe that this Changeling will go on missions to commit espionage and what? Bring a bucket along with it that it will have to hide? So dumb. A Changeling could just go liquid in the sink or a toilet, instead of this BYOB approach and then hiding the bucket in the damn light fixture.

If Canadians can drink milk from a bag, Changelings can have their bucket.

 

[RedBeard_]

I thought the whole “look for the Changeling’s bucket” bit was super fucking stupid. While Changeling’s do need to regenerate in liquid form it’s not like they have a designated bucket as was depicted in episode 4. Odo’s bucket had sentimental value to him, but we’re supposed to believe that this Changeling will go on missions to commit espionage and what? Bring a bucket along with it that it will have to hide? So dumb. A Changeling could just go liquid in the sink or a toilet, instead of this BYOB approach and then hiding the bucket in the damn light fixture.

Imagine trying to regenerate in a toilet and getting pissed on and then flushed.

 

[RedBeard_]

yeah, there were quite a few eye roll moments besides that one. Not to mention the escape with the wave was done at least a couple of times in ST already, only it was usually called "we're gonna surf our way out" but this time they said they're gonna "merge" with the wave to escape. And all that amniotic fluid and gravity well giving birth but then you get those tiny little space octopusses didnt make much sense to me, seemed very hastly put together.
Its more fun to watch than previous seasons but still not very high standard ST wise, especially I dont like how all the relationship melodrama takes precedence before everything else.

Even though Changelings wouldn't necessarily bring a bucket with them on spy missions, it stands to reason that once a Changeling is situated on one of these missions and has settled in his role he would probably have acquired a bucket he keeps lying around somewhere that would allow him to regenerate from time to time. It is completely and totally reasonable and believable that they would look for that type of clue.

 

[deviake]

I thought the whole “look for the Changeling’s bucket” bit was super fucking stupid. While Changeling’s do need to regenerate in liquid form it’s not like they have a designated bucket as was depicted in episode 4. Odo’s bucket had sentimental value to him, but we’re supposed to believe that this Changeling will go on missions to commit espionage and what? Bring a bucket along with it that it will have to hide? So dumb. A Changeling could just go liquid in the sink or a toilet, instead of this BYOB approach and then hiding the bucket in the damn light fixture.

I actually disagree a bit here. I see why you'd arrive there and I don't think you're wrong but at the same time it would be dangerous for a changeling that's trying to hide to regenerate in an obvious area where they could be accidentally discovered. I mean I suppose it could find a small space out of the way somewhere to regenerate and wouldn't necessarily need a bucket to be fair but it's not a huge issue for me.

In fact I have a different nitpick with changelings in general in that - going all the way back to the DS9 days - I find it dubious that the ship's sensors couldn't detect them, unless changelings can impersonate another lifeform down to the cellular level. Even then, it seems like the first thing the entire quadrant would've worked on when the war started was developing sensors that can detect them, especially considering ship's sensors can already differentiate between different life forms.

 

[RedBeard_]

I actually disagree a bit here. I see why you'd arrive there and I don't think you're wrong but at the same time it would be dangerous for a changeling that's trying to hide to regenerate in an obvious area where they could be accidentally discovered. I mean I suppose it could find a small space out of the way somewhere to regenerate and wouldn't necessarily need a bucket to be fair but it's not a huge issue for me.

In fact I have a different nitpick with changelings in general in that - going all the way back to the DS9 days - I find it dubious that the ship's sensors couldn't detect them, unless changelings can impersonate another lifeform down to the cellular level. Even then, it seems like the first thing the entire quadrant would've worked on when the war started was developing sensors that can detect them, especially considering ship's sensors can already differentiate between different life forms.

That is a fantastic point.

To state the obvious I also found it absurd that Odo could duplicate a table, a pair of handcuffs, or just about anything else, but he could not duplicate other humanoids. That always made zero sense.

 

[deviake]

I think you could argue people were a bit more willing to take it with First Contact because that was a one off film in a franchise which was producing shows which kept to the style of typical TNG era trek better, also I do think as an action adventure it was reasonably well written/directed. You could also maybe argue as well that Picard had enough history with the Borg that his behaving in a more irrational manner was somewhat justified, not sure I entirely buy that myself but still I think it does make it a little easier to take.

Really though I never considered First Contact much more than a mildly entertaining diversion.

First Contact is a great looking, solid action movie that when examined fails spectacularly as a Star Trek movie. I enjoyed it when I was younger but RLM's Mr. Plinkett review of it ruined it for me lol. One example he used when being critical Picard's attitude toward the Borg was his attitude toward them in TNG episodes after The Best of Both Worlds. His attitude was completely different and Star Fleet trusted him with various assignments dealing with the Borg. Even if they were dubious of how he'd handle them the Enterprise E was still the most advanced and I think powerful ship, there's no way it wouldn't be tasked with defending Earth. Shit, they'd put Riker or another captain in charge if they were really that worried about it but the E wouldn't sit that fight out, no way.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

I actually disagree a bit here. I see why you'd arrive there and I don't think you're wrong but at the same time it would be dangerous for a changeling that's trying to hide to regenerate in an obvious area where they could be accidentally discovered. I mean I suppose it could find a small space out of the way somewhere to regenerate and wouldn't necessarily need a bucket to be fair but it's not a huge issue for me.

In fact I have a different nitpick with changelings in general in that - going all the way back to the DS9 days - I find it dubious that the ship's sensors couldn't detect them, unless changelings can impersonate another lifeform down to the cellular level. Even then, it seems like the first thing the entire quadrant would've worked on when the war started was developing sensors that can detect them, especially considering ship's sensors can already differentiate between different life forms.

I’m not suggesting that a Changeling can afford to not be discrete about where and when they choose to regenerate. I was more saying that the way in which it was presented in this episode is that each Changeling has their own standard issue Dominion BucketTM and it just came off as silly and dumb.

 

[sverre054]

I thought the whole “look for the Changeling’s bucket” bit was super fucking stupid. While Changeling’s do need to regenerate in liquid form it’s not like they have a designated bucket as was depicted in episode 4. Odo’s bucket had sentimental value to him, but we’re supposed to believe that this Changeling will go on missions to commit espionage and what? Bring a bucket along with it that it will have to hide? So dumb. A Changeling could just go liquid in the sink or a toilet, instead of this BYOB approach and then hiding the bucket in the damn light fixture.

Yeah it was gimmicky, but it was meant as a tribute To René Auberjonois.