The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

I'm sorry dude but someone like bas, kyokushin black belt, lifelong martial artist, fighter, competitor etc. I'm going to take his word over someone advocating nonsense

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Yeah see but bas is only used to fighting in a sport type situation where you got rules! Shot holes in your sport vs "real fight " defense



You can't fake things anymore due to technology, what works works and what doesn't doesn't


Bas also advocates Krav Maga as "the best system in the world for self defence"



So you better start training it, Bas said it was the best. Hurry along now...

Jkd was not mma. Bruce "concept" was mma. Back in the day people didn't really cross train, they were stuck in whatever they did out of some old school martial art tradition BS. Bruce was like hey screw that, I'll train a little this and a little that. His concept was to mix martial arts.....people have been doing that since then. It has evolved to what it is today, through trial and error and being tested and proven effective in the ring and cage.

I'm expecting WC to be like flurries in the movies? No I'm expecting it to be like the previous video you posted. We just don't see it.

What works in the ring works out of the ring.
What does not work outside of the ring, does not work in the ring.

There's things that work out of the ring that would work in the ring but aren't allowed for obvious reasons like eye pokes but shots hair pulling biting.....oh yeah and dim mak death touch lol.

So to summarize your arguments
1) too dangerous for ring
2) no grandmasters

To summarize mine
1) hasn't proven itself
2) your attempts at proving are "reaching"

So you're saying JKD was not MMA, but it was MMA, before 'MMA'...ok dude make up your mind.
Either way lumping it as a 'fantasy art' is obviously bs since they were among the first in the US to advocate cross training and live sparring of different styles.

You're not saying anything new.

Lets sumarize the actual arguments we agree on:

- Combat sports allow you train the techniques full speed and power in competition which improves fighting ability.

- Someone who trains combat sports will usually whoop a TMA guy both in and outside of the ring, with and without rules since they are better at fighting.

Now where you are wrong:

What works in the ring works out of the ring.
What does not work outside of the ring, does not work in the ring.

Um, yes and no. But you can't make that as a general statement.
Upto certain point yes.

There are multiple moves and situations that work in the ring that do not work outside the ring.

Examples:

-Going for an armbar then the guy picks you up and slams your head on concrete.

- Buttscooting then getting kicked in the face with a boot

-Throwing multiple jabs and breaking your hands without gloves

- Going for a Thai plum and being brutally thrown or footswept on concrete
Etc

And plenty that works outside the ring that would work in it if not for rules and protection

E.g
- Clavicle grab
- Groin strikes
- Fish hooks
- Gouging from striking or grappling range
- Other dangerous strikes
Etc

Yes, the pro fighter could do all the above also. But if both guys were doing it the style of fighting would look different.

So I am saying that a style developed to work in real no rules situations will have to change and look different in sports. Strategy will also look different.

In fact as Bas mentioned in the video above (although I don't advocate krav) "train MMA and self defence techniques and tactics, and you get the best of both worlds".

This is fundamentally true, and alot of what you see in WC comes under what you would call self-defense techniques.

Which is why what I say is valid.
Cross train. Spar. Then train and include whatever works also when there are no rules for self defense.
 
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If I was interested in doing wing chun at a quality school what specific things would tell me if the school and inatructor are legit and the stuff they teach is combat applicable? Also what specific lineages carry weight in the wing chun community?
@TheMaster
 
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Bas also advocates Krav Maga as "the best system in the world for self defence"



So you better start training it, Bas said it was the best. Hurry along now...



So you're saying JKD was not MMA, but it was MMA, before 'MMA'...ok dude make up your mind.
Either way lumping it as a 'fantasy art' is obviously bs since they were among the first in the US to advocate cross training and live sparring of different styles.

You're not saying anything new.

Lets sumarize the actual arguments we agree on:

- Combat sports allow you train the techniques full speed and power in competition which improves fighting ability.

- Someone who trains combat sports will usually whoop a TMA guy both in and outside of the ring, with and without rules since they are better at fighting.

Now where you are wrong:



Um, yes and no. But you can't make that as a general statement.
Upto certain point yes.

There are multiple moves and situations that work in the ring that do not work outside the ring.

Examples:

-Going for an armbar then the guy picks you up and slams your head on concrete.

- Buttscooting then getting kicked in the face with a boot

-Throwing multiple jabs and breaking your hands without gloves

- Going for a Thai plum and being brutally thrown or footswept on concrete
Etc

And plenty that works outside the ring that would work in it if not for rules and protection

E.g
- Clavicle grab
- Groin strikes
- Fish hooks
- Gouging from striking or grappling range
- Other dangerous strikes
Etc

Yes, the pro fighter could do all the above also. But if both guys were doing it the style of fighting would look different.

So I am saying that a style developed to work in real no rules situations will have to change and look different in sports. Strategy will also look different.

In fact as Bas mentioned in the video above (although I don't advocate krav) "train MMA and self defence techniques and tactics, and you get the best of both worlds".

This is fundamentally true, and alot of what you see in WC comes under what you would call self-defense techniques.

Which is why what I say is valid.
Cross train. Spar. Then train and include whatever works also when there are no rules for self defense.


Bruce didn't invent mma, he invented the concept..........., if I remember correctly, I don't recall any ground fighting techniques in the Tao of jkd. He may have added some martial arts to jkd, but I wouldn't call it mma.....just like I wouldn't call the horseless carriage a car.

Israeli krav maga isn't soccer mom krav maga, but yeah what it is in the US is BS.

Regarding your comparisons of what works vs what doesn't in/out the ring are valid to a point as yeah a armband could work or you could get slammed on cement sure. But I can apply similar things to yours as well, sure a fish hook could work or guy goes for fish hook and gets finger bitten off......so these comparison are a moot point as in fighting there are infinite possibilities and thus we can apply infinite IF scenarios.....IF you go for the clavicle grab and I elbow you (there's actually a elbow technique in MT that is very similar to this situation ).....IF I get the thai plum, and knee you in the face when you shoot in for that slam, or if you attempt to push and duck out which is extremely common even for mma fighters to do, IF you attempt to block the knees with your arms and I knee straight through them (again a common thing)....so yeah this is just a infinite IF scenarios, so it's moot.

Your previous statements of WC goal is to end the fight quickly as possible may very well be true, and it shares that goal with all combat sports. We all wanna ko the guy as quick as possible, a friend of mine was ok 6 seconds into a fight, first punch thrown landed right on his chin.

You advocate training WC and cross training others, and I'm on board with that. I advocate the same I don't think there's any thing wrong with cross training it and am open to doing it myself. But I think the system as a whole fails and that if you do cross train it, there will definitely be benefits, but I feel a lot of it would be inapplicable. I can say the same for JKD, there's good shit in there, but it's all you know, and you go up against a boxer in the street, your most likely going to get laid out.

With JKD a huge majority of it can be used in the ring, but when it's attempted, it generally fails.

Have you ever seen this?



And dude, please tell me what you think of the maestro defense system!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Bruce didn't invent mma, he invented the concept..........., if I remember correctly, I don't recall any ground fighting techniques in the Tao of jkd. He may have added some martial arts to jkd, but I wouldn't call it mma.....just like I wouldn't call the horseless carriage a car.

Israeli krav maga isn't soccer mom krav maga, but yeah what it is in the US is BS.

Regarding your comparisons of what works vs what doesn't in/out the ring are valid to a point as yeah a armband could work or you could get slammed on cement sure. But I can apply similar things to yours as well, sure a fish hook could work or guy goes for fish hook and gets finger bitten off......so these comparison are a moot point as in fighting there are infinite possibilities and thus we can apply infinite IF scenarios.....IF you go for the clavicle grab and I elbow you (there's actually a elbow technique in MT that is very similar to this situation ).....IF I get the thai plum, and knee you in the face when you shoot in for that slam, or if you attempt to push and duck out which is extremely common even for mma fighters to do, IF you attempt to block the knees with your arms and I knee straight through them (again a common thing)....so yeah this is just a infinite IF scenarios, so it's moot.

Your previous statements of WC goal is to end the fight quickly as possible may very well be true, and it shares that goal with all combat sports. We all wanna ko the guy as quick as possible, a friend of mine was ok 6 seconds into a fight, first punch thrown landed right on his chin.

You advocate training WC and cross training others, and I'm on board with that. I advocate the same I don't think there's any thing wrong with cross training it and am open to doing it myself. But I think the system as a whole fails and that if you do cross train it, there will definitely be benefits, but I feel a lot of it would be inapplicable. I can say the same for JKD, there's good shit in there, but it's all you know, and you go up against a boxer in the street, your most likely going to get laid out.

With JKD a huge majority of it can be used in the ring, but when it's attempted, it generally fails.

Have you ever seen this?



And dude, please tell me what you think of the maestro defense system!!!!!!!!!!!!


Im pretty sure MMA started as your style vs their style where the idea was to bring in a master from all styles to battle out against each other to see what really was the superior style. And guess what... WC did absolute garbage every time.

That's when it was shown to be not affective in a real fight, because at the time there was barely any rules.

Modern day MMA is just a evolution of those early days. It was nothing to do with Bruce Lee. Like you said Bruce Lee just had a ahead of its time concept.

I'm pretty sure the the master is just a master troll. He is on the grappling forum wineding people up arguing that aikido is more practical for the streets then BJJ. He can't really believe half the stuff he comes out with. Unless he really has never spared outside of a mcdojo, or trained with some pro fighters. Sometimes you need to learn for yourself that there are levels to this game, as they say. And if all you do is stay in a mcdojo bubble you will be in fantasy land forever
 
The defence that people didn't think karate worked until it was proven, doesn't hold much weight,. Gerard Gordeau literally knocked two people out in the first UFC. Two months before that in Pancrase (people forget that the UFC was not the first MMA promotion) Bas Rutten debuted. They were both Kyokushin fighters. Karate was also the base for much of the early K1 guys.

People made a big deal about Machida because he had the stereotypical looking karate style, and because he crane kicked. Karate was 'proven' near immediately, we just learned from MMA that ultimately the ability to get the clinch and get to the ground was more important for that sport.

When you're looking for examples of Wing Chun you might have a couple of guys fighting in entry level promotions, but if you're looking for the high levels you literally only have Tony Ferguson, who isn't really a wing chun fighter in any meaningful way. He does some wing chun forms and uses the dummy, and looks like a beginner in it, because he is a beginner. I said it before, all martial arts need adapting to work in different rulesets, but Wing Chun seems to need major adapting just to work within a ruleset.
 
The defence that people didn't think karate worked until it was proven, doesn't hold much weight,. Gerard Gordeau literally knocked two people out in the first UFC. Two months before that in Pancrase (people forget that the UFC was not the first MMA promotion) Bas Rutten debuted. They were both Kyokushin fighters. Karate was also the base for much of the early K1 guys.

People made a big deal about Machida because he had the stereotypical looking karate style, and because he crane kicked. Karate was 'proven' near immediately, we just learned from MMA that ultimately the ability to get the clinch and get to the ground was more important for that sport.

When you're looking for examples of Wing Chun you might have a couple of guys fighting in entry level promotions, but if you're looking for the high levels you literally only have Tony Ferguson, who isn't really a wing chun fighter in any meaningful way. He does some wing chun forms and uses the dummy, and looks like a beginner in it, because he is a beginner. I said it before, all martial arts need adapting to work in different rulesets, but Wing Chun seems to need major adapting just to work within a ruleset.


I think in early MMA days all stand up arts were rendered pretty useless until people started to learn how to stuff a take down effectively or how to defend a submission.

It's more modern MMA where we get to see what striking arts thrive through a better understanding of stand up fighters being able to stay on their feet.

Since then we have not really seen any WC in action.

Possibly this is because most WC schools frown upon students cross training in other disciplines as it still seems to be deep routed into old school tradition.

Machida is a great example because when he came onto the scene he looked like a karate fighter. But I'm sure what helped him be so successful was sparring with kickboxer, boxers and wrestlers etc, so he learnt how to really implement his style.

That's the problem with WC guys that only spar against other WC guys. They are not shown other problems to deal with
 
The defence that people didn't think karate worked until it was proven, doesn't hold much weight,. Gerard Gordeau literally knocked two people out in the first UFC. Two months before that in Pancrase (people forget that the UFC was not the first MMA promotion) Bas Rutten debuted. They were both Kyokushin fighters. Karate was also the base for much of the early K1 guys.

People made a big deal about Machida because he had the stereotypical looking karate style, and because he crane kicked. Karate was 'proven' near immediately, we just learned from MMA that ultimately the ability to get the clinch and get to the ground was more important for that sport.

When you're looking for examples of Wing Chun you might have a couple of guys fighting in entry level promotions, but if you're looking for the high levels you literally only have Tony Ferguson, who isn't really a wing chun fighter in any meaningful way. He does some wing chun forms and uses the dummy, and looks like a beginner in it, because he is a beginner. I said it before, all martial arts need adapting to work in different rulesets, but Wing Chun seems to need major adapting just to work within a ruleset.

Yes, this is true. Karate has been there from the beginning.
If the standup fighters literally had all been given a 6 month preview of what to expect and just done takedown defence, the early UFC's would have looked very different and there may never have been a Gracie myth born.
How would Royce have done against Gerard Gordaue if he had takedown defence?
The Gracies organized the event, and picked strikers clueless of grappling or wrestlers who couldn't strike. And everyone has lapped it up since, even the ultimate bs- that BJJ is some expert self defence art when it really just a supplement last resort system.

WC is fundamentally a close combat art. It isnt really designed for the ring where people can fight at range. Of course that adaptation can happen which is what this thread is about.
Ferg used whatever WC he knows well because he keeps the telephone box distance. And even if he did not learn elbows from WC he practices them alot on the dummy. More importantly he is showing that WC fight strategy can work, more than whether he learned all the skills from WC itself. As we mentioned, there is alot of overlap with dirty boxing and MT.

I think in early MMA days all stand up arts were rendered pretty useless until people started to learn how to stuff a take down effectively or how to defend a submission.

It's more modern MMA where we get to see what striking arts thrive through a better understanding of stand up fighters being able to stay on their feet.

Since then we have not really seen any WC in action.

Possibly this is because most WC schools frown upon students cross training in other disciplines as it still seems to be deep routed into old school tradition.

Machida is a great example because when he came onto the scene he looked like a karate fighter. But I'm sure what helped him be so successful was sparring with kickboxer, boxers and wrestlers etc, so he learnt how to really implement his style.

That's the problem with WC guys that only spar against other WC guys. They are not shown other problems to deal with

Yes this is all true. WC is is done against WC. This is great from the pure 'art' perspective and that is fair enough. Like guys who want to do pure sport BJJ they would usually get their ass kicked in a fight since they have no takedowns or awareness of striking from the pure grappling positions. But BJJ has a strong competition element also and links to mma so it stays more in touch with different arts and how to work against them.
WC is 90% of the time just about the art itself and the game of chi sau.
So I agree, the shortcomings of the style and how to for example deal with a kickboxer who wants to stay at range are not addressed. This makes it appear the style is limited but it just needs exposure and adaptation to other standup arts which would happen more WC MMA teams appear.

Bruce didn't invent mma, he invented the concept..........., if I remember correctly, I don't recall any ground fighting techniques in the Tao of jkd. He may have added some martial arts to jkd, but I wouldn't call it mma.....just like I wouldn't call the horseless carriage a car.

Israeli krav maga isn't soccer mom krav maga, but yeah what it is in the US is BS.

Your previous statements of WC goal is to end the fight quickly as possible may very well be true, and it shares that goal with all combat sports. We all wanna ko the guy as quick as possible, a friend of mine was ok 6 seconds into a fight, first punch thrown landed right on his chin.

JKD is an early form of MMA let's just leave it that. JKD was his concept. What happened was some of them turned it into a cult of Bruce but it was supposed to be constant evolution.
But not all are like that, Matt Thornton and Erik Paulson being JKD guys who show what it was supposed to be.
Bruce was training with friggin Gene Lebell, a guy who in the modern era produced elite MMA fighters like Karo who holds a win over Nick Diaz. So give him his due.
Safe to say Bruce was the forerunner and pioneer of US MMA. In fact more than just sport MMA since he also integrated Kali and stick fighting.

As for boxing being also about ending fight quickly- in theory yes but it depends on the style. Mayweather, Maliganaggi and point fighters do not follow that strategy. It is also limited to just punches to end things quickly.
Is MT about ending things quickly? Often bouts are to an stage a long battle for an audience. Who wants to see a quick ko, the stadiums want to see a long battle of leg kicks I would say the rules are not about ending things quickly.
 
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And everyone has lapped it up since, even the ultimate bs- that BJJ is some expert self defence art when it really just a supplement last resort system.

As someone on this forum once said "I've seen boxers knock out 4 or more opponents one after another in street fights, but I'm yet to see a BJJ guy wrestle a whole gang into submission." BJJ is great IF your facing one opponent and you somehow to shoot for a takedown on concrete and manage to not hit your own head.

Any martial art training is better than none in a street fight. But I wouldn't necessarily say one striking art is the best. Muay Thai, Boxing, Karate, Tae Kwon Do all have their merits and I'm sure WC does too. But I believe striking is far more beneficial in a street fight than grappling or wrestling (What if your opponent is an animal and bites your arm pit? You gunna keep that choke hold?) Last thing you want to be doing is going for a kimura when their buddy who was taking a piss shows up and kicks you in the face.
 
But I believe striking is far more beneficial in a street fight than grappling or wrestling (What if your opponent is an animal and bites your arm pit? You gunna keep that choke hold?) Last thing you want to be doing is going for a kimura when their buddy who was taking a piss shows up and kicks you in the face.

The ultimate guillotine choke defense.
 
Yes, this is true. Karate has been there from the beginning.
If the standup fighters literally had all been given a 6 month preview of what to expect and just done takedown defence, the early UFC's would have looked very different and there may never have been a Gracie myth born.
How would Royce have done against Gerard Gordaue if he had takedown defence?
The Gracies organized the event, and picked strikers clueless of grappling or wrestlers who couldn't strike. And everyone has lapped it up since, even the ultimate bs- that BJJ is some expert self defence art when it really just a supplement last resort system.

My inclination is to say that Royce still would have won, Shamrock was an experienced grappler (though not AS experienced in submissions, he had a few years of it, vs Royce lifetime). For me the issue was that the UFC didn't have any experienced judoka, or any of the UWFI catch wrestlers (where Sakuraba came from).

6 months of sprawl is a bit of a myth. I imagine Royce still would have won, though it would have been a slightly different fight. I think people don't realise that in the early UFC tournaments, people thought Royce was going to kick them, he'd fake a kick and then dive on the legs. I think that still would have caught people out regardless of if they had some takedown defence under their belt or not. It catches people out today, never mind then.
 
Yes, this is true. Karate has been there from the beginning.
If the standup fighters literally had all been given a 6 month preview of what to expect and just done takedown defence, the early UFC's would have looked very different and there may never have been a Gracie myth born.
How would Royce have done against Gerard Gordaue if he had takedown defence?
The Gracies organized the event, and picked strikers clueless of grappling or wrestlers who couldn't strike. And everyone has lapped it up since, even the ultimate bs- that BJJ is some expert self defence art when it really just a supplement last resort system.

WC is fundamentally a close combat art. It isnt really designed for the ring where people can fight at range. Of course that adaptation can happen which is what this thread is about.
Ferg used whatever WC he knows well because he keeps the telephone box distance. And even if he did not learn elbows from WC he practices them alot on the dummy. More importantly he is showing that WC fight strategy can work, more than whether he learned all the skills from WC itself. As we mentioned, there is alot of overlap with dirty boxing and MT.



Yes this is all true. WC is is done against WC. This is great from the pure 'art' perspective and that is fair enough. Like guys who want to do pure sport BJJ they would usually get their ass kicked in a fight since they have no takedowns or awareness of striking from the pure grappling positions. But BJJ has a strong competition element also and links to mma so it stays more in touch with different arts and how to work against them.
WC is 90% of the time just about the art itself and the game of chi sau.
So I agree, the shortcomings of the style and how to for example deal with a kickboxer who wants to stay at range are not addressed. This makes it appear the style is limited but it just needs exposure and adaptation to other standup arts which would happen more WC MMA teams appear.



JKD is an early form of MMA let's just leave it that. JKD was his concept. What happened was some of them turned it into a cult of Bruce but it was supposed to be constant evolution.
But not all are like that, Matt Thornton and Erik Paulson being JKD guys who show what it was supposed to be.
Bruce was training with friggin Gene Lebell, a guy who in the modern era produced elite MMA fighters like Karo who holds a win over Nick Diaz. So give him his due.
Safe to say Bruce was the forerunner and pioneer of US MMA. In fact more than just sport MMA since he also integrated Kali and stick fighting.

As for boxing being also about ending fight quickly- in theory yes but it depends on the style. Mayweather, Maliganaggi and point fighters do not follow that strategy. It is also limited to just punches to end things quickly.
Is MT about ending things quickly? Often bouts are to an stage a long battle for an audience. Who wants to see a quick ko, the stadiums want to see a long battle of leg kicks I would say the rules are not about ending things quickly.

I'll stick by bruce invented the concept of mma.

I knew you would bring up Mayweather in regards to boxing. You can win on points and use that tactic but the goal of boxing is to ko. Not win on points like a karate point fight.

Telephone booth range on a bjj guy means your getting taken down and choked out.

I can say the same for MT. The last thing I would do against a bjj guy is clinch him.

I think it's fair to say most would agree with my statement: there's beneficial things in WC, but it fails as a whole.

If we search hard enough we can even find boxing working against multiple attackers, yet we can't find WC working on one.

Yeah but see your used to fighting where you got rules, see WC is for the streets! Don't be that guy dude...your literally being the guy Joe and Bas were making fun of.

You like to bash sportfighting but a fight is a fight regardless of where it takes place and hey fight is rules it's still a fight. A fight under sport application is probably much more of a fight but then when two drunken idiots getting in a fight at a bar. Sport Fighters such as boxers are usually capable of easily kicking the untrained persons ass and are also capable I'm easily kicking the crap out of people that practice fantasy Martial Arts so your whole argument of sport application verse real fight is bulshit because the majority of sport application easily carries over to outside of sport
 
@TheMaster

Maestro defense system

What's your thoughts?

Boxing is probably 1000x more popular than Wing Chun and is a popular sport on tv. I also said that they spar regularly which WC does not so they create much more fighters. So you are not going to find anywhere as many videos of guys using it. Doesn't mean that WC cant be effective if trained with live sparring.
I have even spelled out that main issue, that they stick to WC vs WC and doing chi sau most of the time with no exposure to other arts.

You are 'reaching' to try to put down the system whereas what I am saying is the issue is how it is trained. When it is trained properly the system works and has been shown to work in MMA.
In needs to be paired with a good grappling style like Judo or wrestling to keep it standing.
It's almost like it has become your faith that Wing Chun doesn't work and when you find evidence to the contrary you have to find ways to explain it away.

MDS is a good example actually of what is the issue of 'reality reality' vs 'mma reality'.
Let's separate Maestro himself and the way he promotes it from the system itself.
The guy is a fight choreographer, so his demos look very slick and there is obviously showmanship with compliant partners.


But most (not all) of the principles work and are based on solid techniques. Simple and efficient. He is basically demoing an ideal for efficient combat based on silat which has the direct and efficient similarity to the WC approach.




The Gracies do not have a monopoly on strangles and chokes either, like Rickson said if you hit a BJJ blackbelt hard enough he might turn into a blue or even white belt.
Hit the opponent and stun them then you can finish how you want, I like standing arm triangles.


So for the empty handed work I think it is solid. Knife fighting I am suspect of any art but already mentioned the Filipino and Indonesia arts are more tested in these areas. It is about awareness mainly then if you can't escape these methods are a last resort.

Of course what people will pounce on is Maestro got his ass kicked in an MMA fight 20 years ago.

He set himself up for Gracie jackasses PR machine to jump in with their usual propaganda "hes not good in MMA, so his system is useless for a real fight".

https://bjj-world.com/fred-mastro-mma-fight/

They discount that such methods have been used countless times in real fights which are more realistic than match fights.
In fact BJJ promotes dangerous strategies for self defence as many have pointed out.
But you drink the coolaid fully.

The whole MDS system is based on strategy and simple direct methods to get it done. Regardless of his personal ability as a fighter which would have gone up in 15 years, the spirit of it is absolutely correct for self protection although he makes it a bit flashy with the choreography but the approach is valid.

All real combat tested systems in the real world don't teach Gracie bs for self defence, they look similar to the MDS approach.

Very similar one that comes to mind is the Geoff Thompson REAL system, a former bouncer with hundreds of fights.




Pre-emptive attacks and that kind of approach. Strategy beats techniques beats strength.

And no, Bas is not laughing at me he is saying exactly what I am saying - to cross train and spar and then add self defence techniques and tactics.

Watch Bas Ruttens famous street defence video with a similar approach.



WC is fundamentally aimed at developing a skillset for the above types of applications.
 
@TheMaster you misunderstood everybody’s attitude towards WC. It’s not the system we blame, but the practitioners who didn’t want to make it any real, just exchange fantasy stories about super-skilled sifus who could beat anyone. It’s like aikido. Could you use it in full-speed/full-power application? Yes, ofc. You need a sparring partner, experienced in striking disciplines, so you can train all your moves with real punches/kicks, not that bs chops from your arse up-and-down. And you need to be trained at least in boxing to throw punches like it’ll be in live situation. But what do we see in almost any aikido club? Two nerds in glasses, who can’t punch or kick for shit, are training some tender gay moves on each other. Lol, they’ll be better by doing ukemi, at least it’ll teach them how not to break thyself when falling in teh streets.
 
@TheMaster you misunderstood everybody’s attitude towards WC. It’s not the system we blame, but the practitioners who didn’t want to make it any real, just exchange fantasy stories about super-skilled sifus who could beat anyone. It’s like aikido. Could you use it in full-speed/full-power application? Yes, ofc. You need a sparring partner, experienced in striking disciplines, so you can train all your moves with real punches/kicks, not that bs chops from your arse up-and-down. And you need to be trained at least in boxing to throw punches like it’ll be in live situation. But what do we see in almost any aikido club? Two nerds in glasses, who can’t punch or kick for shit, are training some tender gay moves on each other. Lol, they’ll be better by doing ukemi, at least it’ll teach them how not to break thyself when falling in teh streets.

A lady came to my club once saying she had recently done a self defence for ladies class taught by a guy who is a bit of a charlatan.

When I asked her to show me what she learned, she said "grab me from behind" so I did, she then said "no, not like that!"

I know that story was nothing to do with your post, but reading it reminded me of that moment, so I thought I'd share
 
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