The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[shincheckin]

Ok so exactly when is WC used here? When he held him with one hand and punched with the other?

This video was just a bunch of sloppy boxing. I didn't see a single hand trap to follow up strikes.

 

[shincheckin]

Tkd works as a base....meanwhile the world searches for the grandmaster who doesn't exist of a martial art 1000 years old

 

[II Muchetto II]

If Bruce Lee was alive today and got to watch the evolution of MMA, he probably would of totally abandoned WC.

His JKD classes/schools would look like modern day MMA classes.

As far as I could see, he wanted to develop a style that involved taking all the practical parts from all different styles and making them work. But he was limited at the time to his knowledge he had of a few martial arts that he was aware of, and never got to see the practicality of it like he could of done today with modern day MMA.

People who train in JKD act like his notes in his book was finished work, and take it all as gospil. They act like it's religious script that they are following. They dont realise it was a work in progress and all the discovery's since he has wrote it would of made it into his book, and made his style very different today.

He didn't seem to have a ego when it came to being wrong about martial arts. It's mostly his fans that do.

 

[shincheckin]

If Bruce Lee was alive today and got to watch the evolution of MMA, he probably would of totally abandoned WC.

His JKD classes/schools would look like modern day MMA classes.

As far as I could see, he wanted to develop a style that involved taking all the practical parts from all different styles and making them work. But he was limited at the time to his knowledge he had of a few martial arts that he was aware of, and never got to see the practicality of it like he could of done today with modern day MMA.

People who train in JKD act like his notes in his book was finished work, and take it all as gospil. They act like it's religious script that they are following. They dont realise it was a work in progress and all the discovery's since he has wrote it would of made it into his book, and made his style very different today.

He didn't seem to have a ego when it came to being wrong about martial arts. It's mostly his fans that do.

Well said.

Jkd and WC fall into the same category through my eyes. Most people that are big advocates of jkd are in lala land. Good bits and pieces but fails as a whole. It's been tested and exposed as BS rather than proven effective. Now before the jkd guys get their Bruce Lee pants in a bunch. I'll repeat I studied and trained jkd. I used to have Bruce Lee posters, dragons and yin yang stuff on my walls.



Jkd guys typically resort to the same old defenses. Too deadly for the ring and no grandmasters left.

 

[TheMaster]

Ok so exactly when is WC used here? When he held him with one hand and punched with the other?

This video was just a bunch of sloppy boxing. I didn't see a single hand trap to follow up strikes.

He is basically in classic chi sau position at 0:47
He keeps constant forward pressure and uses a 'spoiling hands' and single tie to control and hit.
I don't see any 'boxing' there at all he keeps it constant at telephone box range and overwhelms.

What exactly are you looking to see?
If you want something that looks like the movies most of that is disallowed which leaves only punches and maybe elbows with trapping/spoiling/clinch work.

It is WC because the team doesn't train boxing they train WingChun. They are developing attributes and techniques and that is one way it can look in application.

I would say the biggest difference with boxing is the fundamental philosophy that standing at range is dangerous since the hands move faster than the head. So wc is closer to dirty boxing where we want to be inside and have some contact to control the opponents arms and spoil any incoming punches and hit them or counterstrike. If the punches are not coming then we stay close and keep hitting with straights or uppercuts or elbows etc.

Also, I didn't say it is 'too deadly for the ring'. I said that some Asian arts including karate have these techniques and they are valid and rightly banned from sports and damaging.
Why is this such a big deal?
This is martial arts not sococer.
I have never used these techniques and hopefully never will but there are videos out there showing it works and it changes the dynamics of combat.
But even the famous Wong Shun Leung never used them in his challenge fights.
So it is a moot point but some of these Grandmaster have not fought ring matches but they have developed skill in these strikes and it really is an eye opener when you realize the positions that are vulnerable to being struck like that.

So I am forced to say that what we see in MMA is only ''sport WC" since there is a whole form, the 3rd set dedicated to these moves which you claim as 'fantasy' but we have anecdotal evidence and footage that they can be effective as well as common sense.

 

[shincheckin]

Chi sao position aye? 47 seconds?

He is basically in classic chi sau position at 0:47
He keeps constant forward pressure and uses a 'spoiling hands' and single tie to control and hit.
I don't see any 'boxing' there at all he keeps it constant at telephone box range and overwhelms.

What exactly are you looking to see?
If you want something that looks like the movies most of that is disallowed which leaves only punches and maybe elbows with trapping/spoiling/clinch work.

It is WC because the team doesn't train boxing they train WingChun. They are developing attributes and techniques and that is one way it can look in application.

I would say the biggest difference with boxing is the fundamental philosophy that standing at range is dangerous since the hands move faster than the head. So wc is closer to dirty boxing where we want to be inside and have some contact to control the opponents arms and spoil any incoming punches and hit them or counterstrike. If the punches are not coming then we stay close and keep hitting with straights or uppercuts or elbows etc.

Also, I didn't say it is 'too deadly for the ring'. I said that some Asian arts including karate have these techniques and they are valid and rightly banned from sports and damaging.
Why is this such a big deal?
This is martial arts not sococer.
I have never used these techniques and hopefully never will but there are videos out there showing it works and it changes the dynamics of combat.
But even the famous Wong Shun Leung never used them in his challenge fights.
So it is a moot point but some of these Grandmaster have not fought ring matches but they have developed skill in these strikes and it really is an eye opener when you realize the positions that are vulnerable to being struck like that.

So I am forced to say that what we see in MMA is only ''sport WC" since there is a whole form, the 3rd set dedicated to these moves which you claim as 'fantasy' but we have anecdotal evidence and footage that they can be effective as well as common sense.

I think your contradicting yourself here. One minute WC isn't flash like in the movies. The next it is such as this video you posted. What I'm looking for is something like this video you posted.



There's no WC at 47 seconds. Stumbling forward with sloppy tired boxing, and holding him with one hand and hitting with the other is WC now? I thought it was the flash like in the video above you previously posted?

Check this WC out. See how at 50 seconds he keeps constant forward pressure and uses a 'spoiling hands' and single tie to control and hit.



I'd still like your input on Mds

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Ok so you have some background in cma.
But your statements about Wing Chun and by implication Southern Kung Fu arts being 'theoretical' systems that were not tested is a bizaare theory and based on flawed logic of backward rationalization.
You are trying to say that because we have not seen it much in MMA (we have actually seen a version of it which I posted where it resembles somewhat dirty boxing and MT) that it 'never worked'.

Having been around here a while, and remembering the Coleman era and laughing at the guys who used to say Karate was just a bs art and wrestling and BJJ was the only legit systems before Machida came along (or before Pete Williams head kicked Coleman) I am surprised that people just don't get it and repeat the same errors of thinking even now.

The video I posted shows WC working in MMA. End of. The fact there is only really one WingChun MMA team out there led by Alan Orr (who is also a BJJ blackbelt) doesn't mean it can't be replicated at a higher level. It's just that that is such a small percentage of the total WC community that it is not happening on a wider scale. The fact WC has historically been self defence and real world oriented means this is unlikely to change although there may be additional MMA WC teams appearing.
However the fact that it has been done, and using WC as a base with the mechanics and techniques on the feet already ends your theory that it could never be practical.

Then we have at the elite level guys like Ferg who are using wc strategy and techniques effectively. It doesn't matter if he is not primarily a WC guy or he adds it to his type or whatever. Anyone who trains WingChun can see immediately what he is doing and is another great example of how WC can be used if trained live to produce a similar style to Ferguson at close range.

The hardest I have been hit is probably by WC guys. Elbows are also devastating. So taking away any technical strategy, there is enough power to make the style useful and practical which I have witnessed and developed also. This is not theory I know this from experience.

Then we can add the numerous accounts of it being used in real life especially in HK of the type I posted earlier.

Then let us look at historical development and what constitutes practical and 'real' in those conditions.
Your reasoning that what happens in Las Vegas sanctioned rule based sporting events on soft mats determines what is real is way off.

Rolling around on the floor for example is seldom seen in cma. Our understanding is that even in jiu jitsu it was about disabling an armoured samurai.

People carried weapons 300 years ago. Putting yourself in a position of vulnerability top or bottom on the ground for an extended period was probably an invitation to get stabbed or kicked in the head (as it is today).

A nice modern past time when combined with yoga is sport BJJ and with some MMA applications but such as style would not be worth wasting too much time in old days. A few standing submissions would be enough.
So we can see that contrary to your view, the evolution of MMA is not always more realistic. Sport BJJ for example is where the style became much less practical over time which even the Gracies talked about.

Then we have weapons skill. The WC double knives was an important part of the style. Skills translatable to other blades or a single blade or sword.
This is why so many of movements can be combined well with weapons training. This is real and practical martial (military) art not 'gloved combat sports'.

Then we have the whole 'illegal techniques' and neck chops etc. This has been discussed earlier but suffice to say this is valid martial technique and banned for a reason. You or shincheckin are free to test your belief that these are 'fantasy techniques' by going to any legit Wing Chun or high level traditional Karate school, signing a disclaimer and asking them to perform the techniques at full power . I don't recommend it. If you have reservations about the idea that answers the question.


There is plenty of evidence that it works. In fact it is technically illegal in MMA but happens sometimes and gets called a head kick or punch but is actually to the side of the neck like the kick that Holm knocked out Rousey with. WC uses these strikes alot with the forearm or side of hand. Why? Because it is combat tested and very dangerous and obviously that's why it was included.
Again , against an armed attacker these methods are 'equalizers' to an extent to disable immediately.

But hey, if thinking about these techniques as 'fantasy' gives you a sense of security or whatever then thats fine. I am actually ok with that since martial arts were never supposed be taught fully openly which is why styles purporting to teach these methods get mocked by sport stylists but whatever. Good for you with sticking to the pillow combat only since it does develop combat skill it's true even if limited.

Lastly we have barefist fighting with rules. Wong Shun Leung was famous for these (although even here obviously with no eyes, groin or neck/throat strikes)
In modern MMA as discussed WC requires integration with takedown and submission defence and proper sparring. As that training is limited thus far we rely on schools like Alan Orr and they have had some success thus far which I expect to see replicated in future more.

Fuck me, why are you this defensive.

"You are trying to say that because we have not seen it much in MMA (we have actually seen a version of it which I posted where it resembles somewhat dirty boxing and MT) that it 'never worked'."

No, I did not say this.

"You or shincheckin are free to test your belief that these are 'fantasy techniques' by going to any legit Wing Chun or high level traditional Karate school, signing a disclaimer and asking them to perform the techniques at full power ."

I didn't say they were fantasy techniques either.


"Your reasoning that what happens in Las Vegas sanctioned rule based sporting events on soft mats determines what is real is way off."

I didn't say this either, I literally said earlier in this thread that I'm not in the camp that thinks it doesn't or could never work.


"But hey, if thinking about these techniques as 'fantasy' gives you a sense of security or whatever then thats fine."

What sense of security?

You try to use my martial arts background against me, and get it wrong. You have a pre-supposition on what I am going to say, and get it wrong.

I'm not continuing this discussion, you are literally arguing with replies that you have hallucinated. I don't think I have ever got someone reply to me with two monologues and in not one of them, actually respond to what I am saying. It almost reads like you're going off a script.

I ain't bothering with this shit anymore lmao

 

[II Muchetto II]

Am I missing something? When you sign a waiver before you kickboxing or MMA fight, you are basicly taking responsibility away from the organisation if you were to die. So you are literally signing up for giving and receiving deadly blows to end the fight as quick as possible.

Because there are rules, doesn't mean its light contact sparring. I really don't understand people who think 1 - that they have secret techniques, or 2 - they would have the timing and skill to land them in a real fight (I'd imagine the strike would have to be extremely precise?)

The human body is very resilient, and all of this too dangerous to use crap is a load of nonesense. The only thing that can guarantee to end a fight quickly are nut shots and eye pokes.

What are all these too dangerous for the cage techniques that you keep talking about you are hoping you never have to use in real life? @TheMaster

 

[TheMaster]

Fuck me, why are you this defensive.

"You are trying to say that because we have not seen it much in MMA (we have actually seen a version of it which I posted where it resembles somewhat dirty boxing and MT) that it 'never worked'."

No, I did not say this.

"You or shincheckin are free to test your belief that these are 'fantasy techniques' by going to any legit Wing Chun or high level traditional Karate school, signing a disclaimer and asking them to perform the techniques at full power ."

I didn't say they were fantasy techniques either.


"Your reasoning that what happens in Las Vegas sanctioned rule based sporting events on soft mats determines what is real is way off."

I didn't say this either, I literally said earlier in this thread that I'm not in the camp that thinks it doesn't or could never work.


"But hey, if thinking about these techniques as 'fantasy' gives you a sense of security or whatever then thats fine."

What sense of security?

You try to use my martial arts background against me, and get it wrong. You have a pre-supposition on what I am going to say, and get it wrong.

I'm not continuing this discussion, you are literally arguing with replies that you have hallucinated. I don't think I have ever got someone reply to me with two monologues and in not one of them, actually respond to what I am saying. It almost reads like you're going off a script.

I ain't bothering with this shit anymore lmao

Ok my bad, I am lumping you together too much with shincheckin who loves to frequently call these 'fantasy techniques' and call WC as mainly bs, and claim that it has not been shown to work in MMA all of which is not true.

But on your end, you said it was in your opinion a 'theoretical system that was likely never tested' - a ludicrous claim for which I was explaining the flawed logic.

Why am I that defensive?
Dude, your calling a legit well established system as "a theoretical system (i.e not a real system akin to point karate) that was probably never used before" and your wondering why I am defending it so strongly and disputing that idea.

Are you really not able to see how your speculative statement is ignorant and far fetched and insulting at the same time?
Then when I explain why you say your done and leaving.

How about if I said boxing was obviously to me a "theoretical point system wearing oversized pillows that works on untrained people but doesn't work against anyone with basic striking training since low level MMA fighters with barely any standup skill can beat high level boxers in bare knuckle fist fighting"

I don't fully endorse the above statement although there is actually much truth there to how modern boxing deviated from it's bareknuckle origns but that is a separate topic which there was a thread on a while ago.

I do agree with your point however that with non live training there is a standardized one size fits all approach because it's not really tested.
If it become live, 'styles' of Wing Chun will emerge with preference for different stances, ranges, use of angles, types of punches etc
So what have ultimately is systems of training , techniques, strategy and approach and then you have to find your way and put it all together under the pressure of real fighting.

This is why I find shincheckin statements very strange. He is not a WC guy, and WC has hardly been used live so we don't have much to go on but he is so sure when it does work that that's 'reaching' or 'not wing chun'.

No, if they train Wing Chun as their base and make it work using the principles then it is Wing Chun.
The cliches of the style are not even necessary as it is really about how you use your body and strike very relaxed and the sensitivity from chi sau.
I even sometimes favour the horizontal fist position at range as it allows to use the shoulder more to cover the chin, but turning my fist another way doesn't magically make it boxing it would just take away one of the visually recognizable forms of the style.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

But on your end, you said it was in your opinion a 'theoretical system that was likely never tested' - a ludicrous claim for which I was explaining the flawed logic.

Why am I that defensive?
Dude, your calling a legit well established system as "a theoretical system (i.e not a real system akin to point karate) that was probably never used before" and your wondering why I am defending it so strongly and disputing that idea.

Are you really not able to see how your speculative statement is ignorant and far fetched and insulting at the same time?
Then when I explain why you say your done and leaving.

I will just respond to this point.

You misunderstood what I was saying, my hypothesis was that it probably wasn't pressure tested much at the time either, with the wide array of martial arts taught in China, and that martial arts are usually spread and practised mostly by the middle class who would likely never need to use them (this is true in China and this is true in Japan), my hypothesis was that it probably didn't see much street action either.

You're reading my post and seem to get the takeaway of it that I think it has never been used for real in history ever.

No, I don't call it a theoretical system as in it's not 'real' like point karate, but I think that a style that went through rigorous pressure testing simply wouldn't look like Wing Chun. That fella you shared the MMA fight of, I'll take you at your word and say he's using what he's learned in wing chun, and you posted something earlier in this thread to the effect of, when wing chun is used properly, it looks different to the movies.

I think if wing chun was rigorously pressure tested like other martial arts have been, wing chun probably just wouldn't look like it does.

I think it's pointless to discuss if a martial art works for the street, because most street fights are won by people who don't even know a martial art, so obviously a bit of kung fu is gonna help you kick a guys arse. I don't think a martial art needs to stand up to other martial arts in order to be viable for self defence or for recreation.

 

[TheMaster]

Chi sao position aye? 47 seconds?

View attachment 805430

I think your contradicting yourself here. One minute WC isn't flash like in the movies. The next it is such as this video you posted. What I'm looking for is something like this video you posted.



There's no WC at 47 seconds. Stumbling forward with sloppy tired boxing, and holding him with one hand and hitting with the other is WC now? I thought it was the flash like in the video above you previously posted?

Check this WC out. See how at 50 seconds he keeps constant forward pressure and uses a 'spoiling hands' and single tie to control and hit.



I'd still like your input on Mds

The 'flash' clip I posted shows a punch to the throat, and a forearm strike to the neck and open palm strikes.
You won't see it in MMA,and we have a difference of opinion on if that would be viable in real life.
But according to the theory of the system, that is one strategy to finish the confrontation on engagement.

And I'm not trying to go down the 'too deadly' route because I hate that also and it's what guys who cant fight and the cliche martial art nerds hide behind.
Also it's true that alot of the time unless you're very accurate you would be better off just sticking to a high percentage move like a punch.
But personally if I was facing someone with a weapon it's nice to have these techniques as a backup for example.

I said before, sport Wing Chun will look different.
The sensitivity and forward pressure will be something that crosses over as well as the spoiling of punches approach.
Ferguson is a better example but you say he isn't pure Wing Chun which is true.

Ultimately, whether it looks sloppy or flash styles are ways of training and preparing and developing attributes and techniques. So they are often different paths to a similar goal.
And I mentioned, due to the nature of MMA is funnels things so everything starts to look more similar. But the inner mechanics are different.

But here you see clear recognizable parrallel to the training and what you see in the fight.

 

[The Elemental O]

I mean Tony Fergusson using the Wing Chun hand trappings (he practices Wing Chun that's a known fact) effectively like in his fight with Anthony Pettis at least proves there are some applications from it that do have some use in combat sport.


There seems to be some other examples as well like the Oblique Kick.



Now I'm no Wing Chun supporter, in fact I used to really look down on the style as a useless waste of time but it has shown to have useful applications if used well.

 

[Woldog]

But personally if I was facing someone with a weapon it's nice to have these techniques as a backup for example.

If I were facing someone with a weapon and they go within striking range, I'm going to punch him in the face and then do this

If I'm facing a person with a weapon my main avenue of thought is going to be escape, not some WC techniques or even boxing or MT. I'm gunna put on the afterburners and break the world 100m record.

 

[j123]

If I were facing someone with a weapon and they go within striking range, I'm going to punch him in the face and then do this

If I'm facing a person with a weapon my main avenue of thought is going to be escape, not some WC techniques or even boxing or MT. I'm gunna put on the afterburners and break the world 100m record.

Lol @ you doing a physical strenuous movement such as running. More like avoid the whole thing and post memes while pissing off ppl on League of Legends <45>

 

[SandisLL]

How about if I said boxing was obviously to me a "theoretical point system wearing oversized pillows that works on untrained people but doesn't work against anyone with basic striking training since low level MMA fighters with barely any standup skill can beat high level boxers in bare knuckle fist fighting"

Bare knuckle boxing is not a street fight or self defense.
Also about high level boxers that had competed under bare knuckle rules?
Professional boxing is a business and sport.

It might be amazing how more dangerous they might be without gloves and rules.

 

[aerius]

He is basically in classic chi sau position at 0:47
He keeps constant forward pressure and uses a 'spoiling hands' and single tie to control and hit.
I don't see any 'boxing' there at all he keeps it constant at telephone box range and overwhelms.

In other words, you don't know shit about boxing.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

If I were facing someone with a weapon and they go within striking range, I'm going to punch him in the face and then do this

If I'm facing a person with a weapon my main avenue of thought is going to be escape, not some WC techniques or even boxing or MT. I'm gunna put on the afterburners and break the world 100m record.

as any smart man would do

 

[shincheckin]

I mean Tony Fergusson using the Wing Chun hand trappings (he practices Wing Chun that's a known fact) effectively like in his fight with Anthony Pettis at least proves there are some applications from it that do have some use in combat sport.


There seems to be some other examples as well like the Oblique Kick.



Now I'm no Wing Chun supporter, in fact I used to really look down on the style as a useless waste of time but it has shown to have useful applications if used well.

So that's better. I give you Tony Ferguson. There we have a WC guy, who fights MMA and trains WC....he's also good at hand trapping, which was one of my whole points and reasons for advocating anything from WC. That being said his hand trap techniques were trap/pull to a single strike, rather than multiple slipidy slaps. These standard trap to elbow or pull and punch techniques are already in both boxing and MT, the argument could probably be made that since is not a trap to flash, and rather a trap to single strike it's not WC technique.....but I'm willing to leave it at overlapping technique. But that guy does prove a point as hand trapping is a part of fighting and a guy that does WC, is going to be good at hand trapping.

As far as Jon Jones, his oblique kick, and WC...I feel that is "reaching"


I'm still wondering what your thoughts are on MDS?

 

[shincheckin]

I didn't say this either, I literally said earlier in this thread that I'm not in the camp that thinks it doesn't or could never work.

I don't think anyone in here thinks it can't or would never work.

He told me I have an emotional bias towards WC from being a bruce lee fanboy. This was after expressing a interest in learning some of it.

It's what he resorts to with nothing left.

At the end of the day you could summarize his arguments as too dangerous for the ring, it's made for weapons, no grandmasters left.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I mean Tony Fergusson using the Wing Chun hand trappings (he practices Wing Chun that's a known fact) effectively like in his fight with Anthony Pettis at least proves there are some applications from it that do have some use in combat sport.


There seems to be some other examples as well like the Oblique Kick.



Now I'm no Wing Chun supporter, in fact I used to really look down on the style as a useless waste of time but it has shown to have useful applications if used well.

This is less 'wing chun works' as much as it is, hand traps and push kicks to the knee work. Tony's actual application of traps is quite a lot like muay thai, and push kicks to the knee are in savate, muay thai, jkd, wing chun, lots of martial arts.

It's not really an issue of techniques IMO, it's the art. If I tell you to paint something black, you could crush a bunch of charcoal and mix it with water to get your paint, or you could just use paint from the tube, they'll both work but one is going to be far more reliable